The Polar Opposite Conundrum: LAC vs Berkeley

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
1

<p>Grad or Undergrad students who have had this dilemma please help. My out-of-state daughter was initially thinking LAC but an unexpected acceptance to Berkeley and UCSD ("Undecided College of L&S), plus reading these posts, has her rethinking things. Colder and small vs big and warm.
She was ccepted Middlebury, Bowdoin, Claremont Scripps and Carleton–all except the latter smaller and colder). </p>

<p>1.Did any of you come from these or similar schools to Berkeley either after graduation or transfer during undergrad? Are you happy with your decision?</p>

<p>2.Is it much of a factor where you go undergrad to get into a top notch grad school like Berkeley? I would say she is leaning towards California’s Scripps or Berkeley at this moment–the polar (literally) opposite conundrum.</p>

<li>Did any of you change course like this at the last minute or wish you had?</li>
</ol>

<p>We have never been to either UCSD or to Berkeley but will overnight there next week.</p>

<p>Thank you so much–the UCs sound amazing listening to all of you!</p>

2

<p>Congrats on your daughter's acceptances, you must be very proud!</p>

<p>I have never taken classes at a LAC so I can't comment on direct experiences. But, I'd like to give you some of my opinions.</p>

<p>The big difference between Berkeley/UCSD and the top LACs you are considering are class sizes and the amount of personal attention your daughter will receive. </p>

<p>Since Berkeley is big, the lower division math and science courses are large and very competitive, weeder classes. You will have a large lecture and a smaller "discussion" section, usually led by a graduate student. The humanities/social science classes are much smaller to foster interaction and discussion.</p>

<p>Berkeley's academic advising will not be as good as a small LAC. Your daughter will have to seek out opportunities for herself. The opporunities are there, she will just have to be more independent and look for them. </p>

<p>Due to the poorer advisement and larger competitive classes, Berkeley has a kind of "sink or swim" atmosphere. However, I find students to be very social and helpful. </p>

<p>A LAC will give your daughter more care and feeding. However, if she's an independent, free spirit, she might like the larger environment at Berkeley or UCSD. </p>

<p>With regard to grad school placement, LACs tend to perform better. This is partly due to the better advising, etc. but I also think LACs have a more concentrated student population interested in pursuing grad/academic studies than a large university does. Your daughter will get into top grad schools from either. It's more dependent on her GPA, test scores and recommendations. She'll do better in the environment which she is most happy - one that challenges her, but yet allows her to have some fun. Only she can make the decision on the environment best suited for herself.</p>

<p>Berkeley has some advantages over Scripps College, IMO. Cal of course has Pac-10 sports, the city of Berkeley, and San Francisco for escapes/activities. It's all accessible via BART subway system...she will not need a car. You can easily access Oakland Airport from BART as well.</p>

<p>The Claremont Colleges are located in inland Los Angeles...a nice suburb, but nowhere near the exciting environment of Berkeley, IMO. She will need a car (or a friend with a car) to access L.A. Scripps will be warmer than Berkeley. It'll also be smoggier and windier. The Santa Ana winds blow through the mountains and make everything hot and very dry...these usually last through the fall. Berkeley will be cooler with more rain...but nowhere near the environment she'd experience at Middlebury.</p>

<p>I'll say this...when you first see the City of Berkeley, especially the famed Telegraph avenue, it can be quite a culture shock. I got used to it and enjoyed it being from SoCal - with its quirks and variety.</p>

<p>UCSD is a much more staid environment than Berkeley.</p>

<p>I'm glad you're visiting because this is one of the only ways to decide and get a feel for the campus. If your daughter is independent, she might like and thrive with Berkeley...if she's more reserved, she'll probably prefer the smaller, more laid back aspects of Scripps or UCSD. </p>

<p>Does your daughter have any thoughts on majors?</p>

3

<p>I'll sum this up nice and simply for you:</p>

<p>If you want a great education, go to a LAC. If you want a great degree, go to Berkeley.</p>

4

<p>UCBChemEGrad makes excellent points. As an alum and as a mom whose S will be attending Cal in the Fall, his points about the differences in environment and personality fit are right on the money.</p>

<p>I disagree with vicissitudes. You most certainly can get a great education at Cal, you just have to assert yourself more (e.g., meeting with professors, etc.) than you would at a smaller school. That's why the OP D's personality will be key to finding the best environment.</p>

<p>Regarding advisors, Cal had excellent advisors in the 80's. I'm sure the same is true now. Again, if the advisor you're assigned to is not helping you enough, you would then need to take the initiative to find a new one. Great training for real life, in my book. </p>

<p>Then, again, some kids do better in a "kinder, gentler" environment.</p>

<p>@OP: Best of luck in finding the best school for your D! How exciting!</p>

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<p>I am in the same boat. Got accepted to Cal and Pomona :(</p>

6

<p>same position.
This is really hard. When I told my classmates and teachers about the LACs I got in, none of them are impressed. They thought LACs = heald college.</p>

7

<p>I made the Scripps/Berkeley decision myself. Chose the former. Zero regrets. I had a lot of trouble making the choice (I'm in-state, so Berkeley was closer to home, better known, and less expensive), but in the end, it was the right one for me. I told my parents that I loved Berkeley (and I did...beautiful campus, fun town, wonderful students), but that it just wasn't right for me at the time, and that I'd look back for post-grad plans (I kept my word, too ;)).</p>

<p>I'll spare you too many of the details behind my choice, but the bottom line is that it was entirely subjective. I had a fantastic time at Scripps. I'm sure that I would have had a positive experience at Berkeley, also, but a LAC allowed me to grow in some very important ways. It was an environment that I enjoyed, but also one that really allowed me to thrive (more so than I think a larger school would have, but I'm sure that differs from person to person). I was entirely undecided re: major (as in, choosing between engineering + humanities), so I appreciated the flexibility allowed by the Claremont schools. I wanted small, discussion-based courses. I wanted to live on campus throughout college (and to be happy about it). Sports + Greek life were non-issues. I knew the Berkeley area and knew a lot of other students heading there, but I sort of wanted to break away from that. Above all, though, it came down to "fit"--gut instinct, tour experiences, and the fact that the Scripps students I met really spoke to my personality/preferences/concerns in a unique way. </p>

<p>I'm happy to elaborate a bit more through PM, but the bottom line is that the decision is a personal one. Neither Berkeley nor Scripps should hinder grad school prospects. It doesn't sound like your daughter has any bad options...congrats + good luck to her :)</p>

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<p>Thank all of you for your thoughtful and sincere opinions--we are indeed very grateful!</p>

<p>To UCBChemEGrad, thank you. To answer your question, she is truly undecided, but probably not premed. She enjoys English, French and Biology and musical theatre and she is very outgoing. She is thinking of combining these interests with some business experience (maybe a nonprofit internship) and then on to grad school once she finds her niche.<br>
One of the concerns that we have is the apparent difficulty of getting courses at Berkeley as mentioned in this CC thread from 04/01/08, Brown U vs UCB:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/485999-brown-vs-berkeley.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/485999-brown-vs-berkeley.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The poster implies it is hard to explore outside your major and we keep hearing the term "impacted major" a lot. With 7,000 courses to explore, how often does this come up and which majors are impacted and how hard is it to work around?</p>

<p>Student615 a sincere thank you, too! We have now read numerous posts you have made about the Claremont Scripps College which are detailed. sincere, and very helpful--Scripps sounds amazing,too! So next week she will experience the "Day in Our Shoes" overnight at Scripps and the week after that she Overnights at Berkeley, then its decision time! Are there any programs for parents that you are aware of?</p>

<p>To the helpful people who have sent us private messages we will repond soon, but thanks to you as well.</p>

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<p>It is certainly not hard to explore outside your major at Berkeley. There may be a few departments where some classes are hard to get into, especially ones taught by famous professors, but I think that's the exception rather than the rule.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I disagree with vicissitudes. You most certainly can get a great education at Cal, you just have to assert yourself more (e.g., meeting with professors, etc.) than you would at a smaller school. That's why the OP D's personality will be key to finding the best environment.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I suppose it depends on your major. You definitely have to put in more effort, but my experience mostly revolves around the majors that are very research-oriented (i.e. the sciences/engineering). Even if you put in the effort, you still may not a get good education. The lecturers are often terrible or cannot speak English, the professors are sometimes condescending and not helpful, the GSIs are hit-or-miss (they are really good or really bad), and mostly, I find it disturbing how poorly organized/taught some of the classes are, and how utterly useless a lot of the lectures/textbooks can be. A class of 300 dwindles down to 200 people attending the lecture by the 4-5th week, and if it's webcasted, maybe 100 people. Sometimes the class just makes it very difficult for you to learn the material. Office hours are usually much more helpful, but again 1) you have to put in the effort and go to OH on top of lectures/homework and 2) sometimes the office hours are so crowded with people that you can't really get a question in! Especially a day or two before a homework assignment is due (and let's face it, who does homework a week before?). Trust me, you can put in a lot of effort and still find it frustrating to try to learn the material. You'd be surprised at how unhelpful some of the bad professors/GSIs are. You could be in their OH, ALONE, and ask them a question, and their response would be "you are supposed to know this" or "we went over this in class" or "go review it in your book." Well, if I knew this or understood the book, I wouldn't be in Office Hours now would I??</p>

<p>From all the seniors I've talked to, every single one of them has expressed the sentiment "I can't want to get out of here." I've had maybe one person say to me "I wish I could stay longer." If you talk to some engineers, most of them are just in it for the money. Very few engineers are in engineering because they actually enjoy engineering. It's sad, but I think the more marketable the degree, the worst the teaching quality. It evens up the majors in a sadistical kind of way.</p>

<p>Look, even if you dismiss all of that as my opinion, let's face the facts. Berkeley's focus is not undergrad. LACs only have undergrad. Berkeley's professors are hired based on research. LACs hire professors based on teaching ability (they don't have research). The majority of Berkeley's graduates do not go to graduate school (you can look this up on Berkeley's Career Center website). As far as a marketable degree, yes I would say Berkeley is among the top 20 Colleges/Universities. As far as an institution of education, I would say Berkeley is not even close to the top 50.</p>

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<p>If your daughter wants to pursue a graduate degree, I would definitely recommend choosing the LAC. Then maybe she can choose a larger school like Berkeley for graduate school. </p>

<p>If I could start over again, I would go to a LAC, where I get a much better teacher: student ratio (potential for better LORs), more attention for learning, better material, etc. </p>

<p>Honestly, going to Berkeley undergrad is like being a sardine in a can.</p>

<p>I feel like I haven't learned too much useful information.</p>

<p>I am currently in the process of applying to graduate school, and am targeting smaller, private universities primarily because I have felt let down by the education I received at a large public.</p>

<p>LACs specialize in undergraduate education, Berkeley is famous for its graduate programs.</p>

<p>Like previous posters have mentioned, the class sizes are oftentimes ridiculous. Yes, it depends on major, but it seems that many majors have hundreds of people in each lecture. Plus we are instructed by GSIs in smaller discussion, and this makes getting LORs from professors difficult especially since the GSIs grade everything, etc. </p>

<p>Anyway, people can say "put more effort to know professors, etc." It's easier said than done. And this still doesn't exclude the fact that the quality of undergrad education at LAC is probably superior to Berkeley because we are a research institution focused on graduate studies/programs.</p>

<p>Also, I agree with the previous poster. I'm not an engineering major nor a hard science major, but I frequently find that the lectures are worthless. I basically read the textbook for midterms. Oftentimes half of my class don't even bother going to lecture because they are that poorly planned.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
Are there any programs for parents that you are aware of?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure whether there are sessions specifically geared toward parents, but SADIOS is advertised as "a program for admitted students and their families," so I'm very sure that you'd be welcome. I seem to remember having a few solo parents in my SADIOS tours whose kids were off at other "break-out" sessions, but my memory really is foggy! If you're debating whether or not to attend, you might try posting on the Scripps board (I know there are a few other parent posters whose daughters were accepted) and/or contacting admissions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
LACs hire professors based on teaching ability (they don't have research).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Some LAC's do require their professors to research/publish (I don't know whether or not such a requirement is typical). You're correct that teaching is still, overall, the focus (which is perhaps why some of them choose to come to LAC's after teaching at major universities), but there's still a good deal of research, scholarship, and publication going on at plenty of LAC's. Obviously, there are significant differences, and I wouldn't attempt to claim otherwise...just wanted to stick up for the research and publication efforts of my own LAC profs ;)</p>

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<p>You have to be aggressive at Berkeley to create opportunities. But there is so much going on, there are many chances to do that. My freshman year I was auditing a graduate seminar in a subject I was very interested in, which led me to an internship opportunity. Junior year I went abroad to a school that had an office devoted to UC students, providing all kinds of service and support. Senior year I did an honors thesis, working closesly with a professor. Many of my upper division courses had 15-20 students in them. I could have taken grad courses my senior year as well, if I had wanted. </p>

<p>There are limits to what you can study at a small LAC. My major would barely be offered at most. </p>

<p>Obviously they are upsides to a small LAC, but for many majors, they are very very limiting. The idea that they offer you better preparation for grad school is, I think, untrue for many many majors.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Many of my upper division courses had 15-20 students in them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What did you major in? This is highly unusual. </p>

<p>The fact is at a LAC you don't have to exert yourself to the max just to talk to a professor. At a LAC you get a much better student: teacher ratio. At a LAC you get more one-on-one support and probably better structured lectures.</p>

<p>For anyone who has ever taken a math/science/econ/business/etc. class you realize that the lectures are oftentimes completely useless. You are better off reading the textbook and never going to class.</p>

<p>Not to mention the GSIs have what, one office hour a week and then they are usually filled with students because they tend to schedule them the day before a problem set is due. You can barely talk to your GSI let alone ask a question. And the professors have no idea what the problem set entails since the GSIs wrote them, so you can't ask them either. Plus the professors never grade your work, so if you want to get to know them, it's difficult for them to know you on an academic level.</p>

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<p>vicissitutes - I agree with many things you said except this

[quote]
and let's face it, who does homework a week before?

[/quote]

If you are a CS/CE major and you wait to the last minutes to do programming homework then you won't make it.</p>

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<p>I majored in linguistics, something you really can't even study at an LAC; they just don't have the faculty or courses. There are lots of majors like that; Berkeley lets you study anything you want in-depth.</p>

<p>I really think, BerkeleySenior, that almost everything you are saying applies mostly to introductory courses. Every department, as far as I know, has smaller upper-division classes available. You mention Math, a lot of the upper division math classes are quite small. You mention economics, there are mega classes in economics, but there are also smaller seminiar-type classes for economics majors to take. English is the same way. </p>

<p>If you want to have your hand held from day one, to sit in small seminar style classes for four years, to have professors whose main job is to pay attention to you, then a small LAC is right for you. If you want the opportunity to study ANYTHING, to be part of a world-leading research institution, to be on the cutting edge of many fields, Berkeley offers way more than a small LAC can.</p>

<p>Berkeley is difficult and unforgiving. No one will hold your hand. That is the fact. But it offers unlimited opportunities.</p>

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<p>Yes, smaller courses are available for every major, on a very limited basis. As an Econ major, I have noticed maybe 1 or 2 max "smaller seminar sized" courses each semester. They rarely offer these courses and most of these are "case studies." I am graduating this May and to date my smallest upper div Econ class has had over 100 students. </p>

<p>I agree that there is is a more limited plethora of majors available to a LAC student, but if you want a more in-depth experience a LAC is preferable over a large public. </p>

<p>Just because our professors and graduate students are on the cutting edge of many fields and produce massive amounts of research, we, as undergraduates usually do not get to participate nor reap the benefits of this research. Yes, we have the name, the degree, but were we the ones to actively produce research? Will this research enhance our undergraduate experience? Probably not.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I majored in linguistics, something you really can't even study at an LAC; they just don't have the faculty or courses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Pomona College and many other LACs have a major just for linguistics.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
Pomona College and many other LACs have a major just for linguistics.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Pomona does seem to have a lot of course offerings in linguistics. Even if a college has a linguistics major, that doesn't mean they offer a lot of courses in linguistics. Any place without a graduate school is going to be limited in the end. It may not matter for many (or most) undergrads, but if you want to go in-depth, or have peculiar interests, a big research university offers all kinds of opportunities.</p>

<p>I'm not suggesting that small LACs don't provide students with special opportunities that big schools like Berkeley don't. What I am saying is that we shouldn't overlook the opportunities that only a place like Berkeley can offer.</p>