Very glad to hear we are far from being alone! We had the money talk in advance and told him he could apply where he wanted knowing that money would be a limiting factor. Based on recent financial struggles, we were only going to have him apply to state schools. We have stabilized financially and we had acquaintances encourage us to apply to private schools because they can afford to give away more scholarship money. We did as they suggested but told my son that it all depends on what the awards are. I think he understands being realistic about what net price we can afford as a family. We also have to think about my daughter in a few years who wants to be a vet. I have not done a very good job explaining the advantages for him - I see some good suggestions which I will try. Perhaps that will get him more comfortable with not going to the big name private school. He’s a sensible kid, an old soul. But he is still a teenager and concerned with image among his peers. We’ll sit back and see what happens. Perhaps one of the private schools will accept him and come back with a great merit package then we’ll have a difficult decision. He’s in a unique position of excelling in academics, two sports, and music. Hopefully that will give him some opportunities for scholarships at the private schools as well.
We have told him that he should plan on being on his own cost-wise for medical school. We’ll have my daughter to worry about at the same time. So you are right: it would be in his best interest to save money as an undergrad. He is pretty intent on med school, even the specialty! He will likely major in biomedical engineering as a fall-back should he change his mind. My son’s best friend’s father is a MD and attended a tiny Christian college for undergrad. Maybe he isn’t doing major clinical research but is quite successful at the community hospital. I think I will ask him to speak to my son about saving money during undergrad years and if there were any disadvantages to not going to a big-name private school.
Thank you everyone for your input and suggestions. Best of luck to all and your kids.
A friend of mine’s D did biomedical engineering at Case and then went to med school so there are paths never has to be either engineering or med school
@Muchtolearn - I’m curious why you think a prestigious school is needed for CS, but not other engineering majors. Most of my reading seems to indicated that undergraduate school for CS matters less than graduate school.
Most CS graduates go to work with a bachelor’s degree; graduate school is not necessary unless you want to go into basic research type jobs (after a PhD).
School for CS can matter, but not in the way that most people think in terms of school prestige. Good CS departments and degree programs can be found over a wide range of the school prestige scale. Limited or overly-specialized ones can also be found over a wide range of the school prestige scale.
Why does prestige matter a lot for CS? Attending a prestigious school can make a big difference for hiring at elite investment banking type companies and to a lesser extent elite consulting, but these are exceptions rather than the rule. In surveys, employers as a whole say they emphasize other factors, particularly experience. In the survey at http://www.chronicle.com/items/biz/pdf/Employers%20Survey.pdf , employers rated college reputation as the least influential factor for evaluating resumes of new grads and rated elite colleges as less desirable than state flagships for hiring purposes.
What do you mean when you say he’s “pre-med”? Generally there isn’t such a thing. One Dr. friend of mine was a history major, and another a computer science major. Generally where you got a bachelor’s degree doesn’t matter all that much to the med school. The quality of the advising and of the prerequisite courses (there aren’t that many of them) will matter the most, as well as the resources to help prep for the MCAT.
Sometimes the Prestige Factor operates with the PARENTS. D’s classmate has been offered full ride at a state non-flagship school. It turns out good students, and in the case of classmate, will give her a good foundation for med school at state flagship. Classmate, who had scores to go to much “better” colleges, is fine with this, and happy to go, saving her resources and debt for med school.
Parents however are “embarrassed” that their child has chosen to go to public non-flagship and are pushing her towards private college and resultant student debt: “How can we tell our friends you are going there.” and “that school is for losers.”
“@Muchtolearn - I’m curious why you think a prestigious school is needed for CS, but not other engineering majors. Most of my reading seems to indicated that undergraduate school for CS matters less than graduate school.”
@redslp Most people say that it does not matter where you go for CS, but most people are wrong. It does not necessarily need to be prestigious school, but it does need to be a very rigorous top program.
Look at the ranges for earnings for engineering majors that are not in CS, they tend to be fairly narrow. In contrast, the range of starting salaries for CS is roughly from $40k -$150k. On top of that, the kids at the top of the range are getting a signing bonuses that could be another $75k, and sometimes they are getting significant equity on top of that. In my opinion, that is a lot for a 21 or 22 year old.
CS interviews are difficult hands-on problem solving and coding solutions under time pressure while engineers watch you. The most rigorous programs cover more material, and assign more extensive projects so students are better prepared and are probably successful in a much higher percentage of these interviews.
“Pre-med” was just my shorthand for “he plans on going to med school after graduation.” He will likely major in Biomedical engineering - a good base for a career should he change his mind about being a MD in two years. Definitely understand about the advising and such. The state school has a big advising program due to their medical school and faculty.
The more I talk about it, the more it seems like a good fit.
I know this topic is in another thread, but the parents can be just as bad (or worse) than the kids. I am not on Facebook buy my wife is. Every day somebody is posting where their child was accepted for all the world to see. They might as well be saying “my kid is smarter than yours.” It’s all about living vicariously through your kids. I have seen it through sports but it is getting almost as bad in academics. Have to say ladies, based on what I have seen from my wife, it’s the moms that are by far the worst about school bragging. I understand my son’s feelings about all of this but I am not one to worry about others and what they think. As others have said, it’s my job to be sure he’s keeping his eye on the forks in the road that are coming in the years ahead and not just the one right in front of us.
@Much2learn - thanks for the explanation. So for a high school student that is passionate about coding, Robotics and math; thrives when he is working as part of a team of different thinkers; but likes the pressure of being the coder that ultimately is responsible for getting the bot going. What colleges would you recommend exploring and researching? (Top grades, high PSAT, geographic location unimportant if price and program are a match)
While CS tends to have a wider salary range than most majors, I wouldn’t say engineering majors have a narrow salary range. For example, the starting salary range for last year’s Michigan State grads are listed below. The starting salaries are all over the map for both engineering majors and computer science. While there is a wide salary range, I wouldn’t assume salary is largely dependent on school name. Instead I’d expect it more depends on things like position taken & job title, relevant experience & past salary history, and location.
BS Chemical engineering – $31k to $125k
BS Computer science – $15k to $130k
BS Electrical engineering – $25k to $130k
BS Mechanical engineering – $15k to $134k
It is true that problem solving in interviews play a notable role in hiring decisions for CS majors, but the same could be said for various other engineering majors. I was an EE grad. All of my first job interviews involved solving engineering related problems. In some cases, this was essentially the full interview – little small talk, little discussion about resume, little discussion about the job position and company, almost all the time spent solving problems. I’d expect good preparation for solving interview problems to have more to do with what courses you have taken and how well that information is retained than the college name. There are some notable variations in course content at different colleges, but again a similar statement could be made for engineering. For example, I’ve received my degree from Stanford, but have taken a few courses at other colleges. At UCSD, I found that the one of the courses I took really emphasized Qualcomm tech over generalized approaches, to the point where it wasn’t that useful for my purposes at a company using a different tech. Qualcomm is by far the biggest EE employer in SD, is located within sight of UCSD, and was co-founded by UCSD professor; so this result is not too surprising.
@choguy1 I was in a similar position with my kid. But it is my honest opinion that it sounds more prestigious to say your kid is attending Honors College with merit scholarship at a top 100 State College than saying your kid attends top 40 ranked school. In our case, it was an Honors College (pre International Business major) at Univ of South Carolina (an out of state school for us) with a significant merit scholarship that would have cost us only $12k per year vs a full pay at Stanford or $40k per year at UCLA/Berkeley. It wasn’t about the prestige factor alone since there was no question in my mind that Stanford was the best fit for him (he is definitely not a pre med or STEM kid). Ultimately, a decision was made for us because he was offered a study abroad opportunity for one year for free (valued at $50k+), but he couldn’t take this gap year opportunity at UC or Univ of South Carolina without having to reapply for not only admission but for scholarships. Stanford was his number one choice school, and we knew in advance he would be a full pay, and we were shocked he got in REA. I myself would have been fine and proud telling people that my kid goes to Honors College at Univ of South Carolina on free tuition scholarship, but my wife felt he just couldn’t pass up the opportunity to attend Stanford. I myself was more concerned at the other opportunities to invest for my kid with the money that needed to be coughed up to attend Stanford. Strangely, I felt the $25k per year difference was not too much to choose in-state UCLA/Berkeley over Stanford. I guess I am not a fan of crowded UCs. In fact, my wife and I were arguing over UCLA/Berkeley vs Honors College — I was for Honors College whereas my wife was strongly for Berkeley — but getting into Stanford and also getting into a study abroad gap year Program made this potentially big argument moot. Besides, I was strongly for UCLA over Berkeley anyway if the choice was between these two schools. (Another topic.) At the end, we left it up to our kid to choose, but since he wanted to do this one year study abroad thing, he really had no choice but to attend Stanford unless he wanted to reapply for everything again. So at the end, we were able to avoid potentially a big argument.
Our kid is right now abroad in the middle of the study abroad thing, and he told me he’s definitely glad he chose to do this because he improved so much in this language and he experienced a lot of things.
Is he majoring in biomedical engineering because he thinks he might like a career in that area…? If not, let him major in anything he wants to major in. It doesn’t matter, as long as he takes the requisite courses for medical school admissions.
Is this a major where he will get a tippy top GPA?
So, I’m struggling with some of the same questions although my D has a few years left in HS. She has a strong desire to take a shot a med school. I have a strong desire to make sure she keeps debt low and has a plan B in case she changes her mind on med-school or cannot get admitted. One interesting strategy I’ve heard is to get into the strongest undergrad program you can that provides the most (full) aid saving funds for use in med school. My only concern is that should she change her mind about med school would that high-aid school be the best one for her to attend?
@thumper1
He was an engineering kid until he tried FIRST Robotics for a year. Great experience - he had a lot of fun - but it also taught him he didn’t want to spend his life in electrical/mechanical/computer engineering. He took several engineering classes, always did well. He just wants to be able to apply his engineering mind to his first interest - life sciences. He also enjoys working with people and likes the feeling he gets when he can help somebody. This fall he told me he was concerned about the fear people must feel when they go to the doctor or hospital. He must have felt that in years past as our family went through different medical challenges (wish he would have shared that back then). Point is - he is definitely a life science kid. My wife and I have careers in this area too so that may have helped.
@data10 I am not sure where you found that data for MSU?
I found this data provided by MSU shows engineering averages and overall range. The high salary reported by a grad was $105k, but does not say which major that was for.
If she were to change from a med school track, would it be to something totally different? Would she suddenly need a school that was a lot stronger in theater or art or religious studies? My daughter picked a stem school which doesn’t have much outside of STEM. I knew that would be fine as if she decided engineering wasn’t for her, she’d have switched to chemistry or physics or math. There really wasn’t much she liked about LACs (except the a capella groups, she really did like those but she can’t sing at all) so I knew it wouldn’t be a problem that her STEM choice didn’t offer much in history, art, foreign languages (some, just not enough to make a major).
@Redslp
Examples that come to mind of top CS schools that are rigorous: (alphabetical order)
Berkeley
Cal Tech
Carnegie Mellon
Cornell
Georgia Tech
Harvard
Harvey Mudd
Illinois
Michigan
MIT
Penn
Princeton
Purdue
Stanford
Washington
Yale
In my opinion, salary outcomes that the schools provide in their career survey are much more informative than rankings. Unlike most majors, geographic differences don’t matter much since most top students are headed for the same three very expensive cities: San Francisco, NYC, or Seattle.
Here are a few 2016 examples of engineering/CS career survey/placement reports: MIT, Penn, Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, and Michigan.
Additional comments:
As I mentioned before, keep in mind that the salaries reported are omitting equity stakes that can be very large, so you have to consider that.
Also, some of the grads getting the best salaries are strong in more than just CS. Many have taken a lot of advanced math and/or statistics, for example.
