<p>"^ It's a joke, huh? Will one of you SAT proponents please present a logical reason why you want the average SAT to be so high? "</p>
<p>Here are three:
Higher SAT = Higher IQ = Higher Aptitude of the student body. This, alone is enough justification.</p>
<p>Tom, you are confusing the Left with facts again.</p>
<p>It's about the ideology and social justice with these type of posters. They say they want excellence, but when we show them a path its unacceptable if it does not bring up the least common denominator at the same time. </p>
<p>They are kind of like drones if you ask me.</p>
<p>Read the book - "Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left"</p>
<p>Thanks for finally stating some reasons. I don't have a problem with a higher SAT score. All I'm saying is that it should not be the main focus of the university admissions process, because bringing the average SAT from a 1290 (I think this is about the current average) to a 1330 isn't going to bump it up in the rankings that much nor will it necessarily make UF a better university. </p>
<p>I think the problem with your equation, tomslawsky, is that a higher SAT and IQ does not necessarily mean a higher quality student(granted, it ususally does). For instance, let's say you have two students to pick from.... </p>
<p>Student A: 1830 SAT (10 Essay), 4.3 GPA, Leadership positions in student government, organizes volunteer opportunities, numerous AP and Dual courses, captain of a varsity sports team, and has several academic awards. </p>
<p>Student B: 2050 SAT (10 Essay), 4.1 GPA, two AP courses, and was a member of German club for a year. </p>
<p>If you were an admissions officer, who would you rather take? To me, it's a no-brainer. The SAT may be able to show general intelligence, but what good is it if that student has never really challenged himself? I would much rather take Student 'A' because this student has shown a history of applying and challenging himself in a variety of areas. Now according to your SAT ideals, you'd take 'B' because he has a higher SAT score. But what good does that do if he doesn't do much with the intelligence that he has? I think the SAT should play a large role in the admissions process, but other factors need to be considered. Like if 'A' had a 1650 with a 6 Essay, then I'd certainly go for 'B.' </p>
<p>SSobick, I'm afraid that you're confusing me with a liberal.... which is not the case. I'm entirely against any kind of affirmative action in the admissions process, especially if it's hidden (which seems to be the case with UF) behind "holistic admissions." What I am for is an overview of the student as a whole, not just the numbers.</p>
<p>"I'm entirely against any kind of affirmative action in the admissions process, especially if it's hidden (which seems to be the case with UF) behind "holistic admissions." What I am for is an overview of the student as a whole, not just the numbers."</p>
<p>The # 1 PROBLEM with Holistic Admissions is that it is sooo easy to throw in a social justice agenda that is masked in this whole broad admission plan. UCLA & Berkeley are going to take it in the teeth in the years to come because of their latest shift (however it's easier for them to mask it because they have over 50k applications to make up for their egregious social engineering).</p>
<p>I would rather UF stick to keeping the SAT & ACT scores high on the overall admission importance. This way it does not open the door to the fringe-left agenda.</p>
<p>AT9,
Ostensibly, your argument holds water. However, it hinges on the assumption that if you are a "leader" in high school, you will continue to be a leader for life. Conversely, your argument pigeonholes high school students who are uninvolved at the ages of 16-18 to remain that way for life. I'm not sure how old you are, and I hope this doesn't come across condescending but Many, Many, Many (most) of the successful leaders, managers and general societal contributors didn't have a "type A" personality when they were kids and many "slackers" in high school grow up to be great achievers. </p>
<p>Given the scenario you presented above, I would be suspicious that student A was joining activities in order to impress the admissions committees. Student B, however, on the surface seems to me to have raw aptitude AND a real possible passion for language. Actually, both candidates could be equally qualified but for different reasons.</p>
<p>what tom said.</p>
<p>and I also think its obvious who would get admitted in the A vs B argument. Here's UF's problem:</p>
<p>Student A: 1730 SAT (8 Essay), 3.9 GPA, 1 AP course, member of the school step team, and is a minority</p>
<p>Student B: 2050 SAT (10 Essay), 4.1 GPA, 3 AP courses, and was a member of German club for a year. </p>
<p>Who do you choose then? I'd say B, but UF would likely say A.</p>
<p>I can guarantee you that Vanderbilt's SAT median is NOT 1375.</p>
<p>Vandy's Class of 2012 middle 25-75% SAT was 1380-1540. So I'm guessing the average is 1460.</p>
<p>ANYWAY, in regarding UF, SAT should be a means to deny people, but not to admit them. If it's really low, then your potential isn't great enough to do well in college. If it's high, so what? You just may be a genius lazy couchpotato who won't contribute to the college at all. So after denying the low SATs, they should just then look at GPA/rigor of courseload and then at ECs and the other stuff.</p>
<p>Doing this should also bump up the SAT average.</p>
<p>or...a genius lazy couch potato waiting to contribute somewhere that matters (like college)</p>
<p>I think high school matters, especially as the gateway to a good future.</p>
<p>^ I think intelligence matters. </p>
<p>But the Equal Protection Clause reigns supreme. UF Admissions needs progressive reforms so that a fair and equitable admissions standard can be expedited.</p>
<p>Hilsa,
You sure those SAT numbers for Vandy are for ENROLLED, not admitted? UF's admitted students have an SAT of 1310, but a 1250 for enrolled students.</p>
<p>A freaking 1250, and we have over 27,000 applicants to cherry pick from.</p>
<p>NOT COOL!</p>
<p>Oh, enrolled is 1330-1500... so 1420 ish.</p>
<p>SSobick,
I don't think we're in any disagreement there. As it stands right now, the holistic admissions program at UF does provide a way for affirmative action to creep in. Which is why I wish they would seek out ways to evaluate a candidate as a whole without using a left-wing agenda to justify what is, in reality, racism. </p>
<p>tomslawsky,
I'm not saying that ALL students who do lots in high school will be successful in life, nor am I saying that high school slackers will end up flipping burgers. But what I am saying is that I think that hard work in high school is generally a better indicator of success later on than someone who does not do much in high school. Obviously, there are exceptions. But generally speaking, I would think that a student who works hard in high school is more likely to succeed later on in life than someone who does not work hard in high school.
A second reason I would pick 'A' is that, not only does he show more potential, but he's obviously worked harder. I would much rather reward a student who's worked hard with an acceptance letter than a kid who's done alright, but hasn't really challenged himself as much. </p>
<p>(I am 18 by the way) </p>
<p>rsxwheeeeee,
In your scenario I would pick 'B' in a heartbeat. 'B' has a high SAT, GPA, harder course load, and same number of EC's. But I see what you're saying. I wish it were somehow possible to make the use of race in the admission's process illegal. It's blatantly discriminatory against someone who is not a minority. </p>
<p>I don't know if there are any other high schoolers posting in this thread, but does anyone else get sick of college letters and panphlets with their claims about their great "diversity" on campus? Quite frankly, I don't give a damn if I'm the only white student on campus or if 99% of the campus is white. I want to be surrounded by the highest achieving students possible, regardless of their race, age, or gender. Period.</p>
<p>"As it stands right now, the holistic admissions program at UF does provide a way for affirmative action to creep in. Which is why I wish they would seek out ways to evaluate a candidate as a whole without using a left-wing agenda to justify what is, in reality, racism."</p>
<p>Now you see the problem. They are already breaking a law that Jeb Bush signed off on. The Legislature said AA is abolished in state of Florida back in 2000.</p>
<p>How can we expect UF admissions to do the right thing, when they can't even follow the statutes?</p>
<p>Do you see why we should not give them any leeway?</p>
<p>Don't give em an inch! They will take a foot!</p>
<p>I do see the problem, but I also see a big problem with using test scores exclusively. In the application process, there should be no place to indicate a student's race (I forgot if there actually is or not at UF, but I've seen it before elsewhere). And in the essay's, they should be graded by specially appointed people much like the SAT, and they should be given a score that is posted on their admissions file. That way if the student mentions his or her race, sexual orientation, or anything that could be used to try and convince the admissions officers that they're a minority of some sort, the person making the decision doesn't know about it. Granted, an essay grader could rank an essay higher if they are subjectively grading based on the student's personal information instead of the quality of the content. Of course you still have the problem with school groups that could indicate a minority status. So instead of just listing it on the application, there should be a system set up within the application to show a student's involvement, but that doesn't show any minority status. For instance, there could be a list of EC's to chose from (Student Gov., Newspaper, etc.) that are assigned particular values in the application status. Say if you were an SGA Pres in your senior year, you'd get more "points" than if you were a general member of the marine science club in 9th grade. </p>
<p>I know, it sounds pretty far out and probably not very practical. But I think going the extra mile to eliminate any potential discrimination and to make the admissions process color blind is necessary. It's hard to look at a student as a whole without inserting some personal bias, but I think it can and should be done.</p>
<p>Forgot to mention this in my last post.... </p>
<p>Obviously raising the quality of UF should be a priority, but I find it more troubling that Florida does not have many high quality schools for a state its size. Florida is the fourth largest state in the country, yet we don't have many well respected major universities compared to the others of the top 4. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>California, 36.7 million: Stanford, USC, UCLA, UC-Berkeley, Pepperdine, UC-San Diego, Cal-Tech, UC -Davis, UC-Santa Barbara, and UC-Irvine (even though I think the last three are highly overrated) are all ranked in the top 60! UC-Riverside, UC Santa Cruz, U of San Diego, University of the Pacific, and the U of San Francisco are also in the top tier. </p></li>
<li><p>Texas, 24.3 million: Rice, UT, Texas A&M, SMU, Baylor, and TCU are in the top tier. </p></li>
<li><p>New York, 19.4 million: Columbia, Cornell, NYU, U of Rochester, Rensselaer Poly, Yeshiva, Syracuse, Fordham, and SUNY-Binghamton are in the top 80. SUNY-Stony Brook, Clarkson, and University at Buffalo- SUNY are all in the top tier. </p></li>
<li><p>Florida, 18.3 million: UF, UM, and FSU are in the top tier.... that's it. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Granted, I think UF and FSU are highly underrated and will probably be moving up in the coming years (FSU already has). Also, UCF and USF are growing universities with growing reputations. But the fact that we only have three in the top tier of major universities is pretty pathetic.</p>
<p>"Granted, I think UF and FSU are highly underrated and will probably be moving up in the coming years (FSU already has). Also, UCF and USF are growing universities with growing reputations. But the fact that we only have three in the top tier of major universities is pretty pathetic."</p>
<p>It's more than pathetic, it is tragic in my honest opinion! First the state of Florida has no income tax so we can not generate enough tax revenues to pay for our educational needs in the state. We also have the Bright Futures Scholarship and Florida Pre-Paid which forces the tuition rates in the State University System (SUS) to stay artificially low.</p>
<p>We have found a loop-hole in the Tuition Differential clause, and this upcoming legislative session Governor Crist is proposing to raise tuition by 15% a year until the SUS meets the national average. Which is basically a lock to pass by the way.</p>
<p>After this happens our revenue stream should improve substantially in the SUS, and UF & FSU are cutting 4,000 undergraduates and therefore the class sizes, should reduce greatly at the two flagships.</p>
<p>(Sarcasm from former SUS Chancellor Charlie Reed)</p>
<p>Per the attached chart from FSU sometime in 2000-01 things got REALLY bad between State funding & FTE students.</p>
<p><a href="http://dof.fsu.edu/NFO08/9%20-%20Fiorito.ppt#266,4,Slide%5B/url%5D">http://dof.fsu.edu/NFO08/9%20-%20Fiorito.ppt#266,4,Slide</a> 4</p>
<p>Gotta love affirmative action.</p>