The University of Michigan's Volatile Future

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>“Is this a joke? Do you want me to pull out the SAT percentiles again for you again?”</p>

<p>SAT means squat ring<em>of</em>fire. Anybody can ace those exams. I got a 1540/1600 before the SAT was recentered. Back in those days, the average SAT score at Duke was 1300. Anybody can do well on the SAT. All one needs to do is actually prepare for it. Students at Cornell and Duke prepare much, much , much harder for the SAT than students at Michigan. But in terms of class performance and academic ability, students at Michigan did just as well in high school. That is why Michigan is as selective as Cornell and Duke. Like it or not, it is a fact that is well document on the USNWR, apublication to revere overall all else.</p>

22

<p>“I didn’t attend Michigan because I didn’t get any financial aid, merit scholarships or get pre admitted to Ross. Heck, I didn’t even get the Regents scholarship. Apparently my 3.85 GPA with over 10 AP classes, my 35 ACT score, my involvement and leadership in a myriad of extracurricular activities, my unique international background and my passion for business didn’t shine through to Michigan.” </p>

<p>Sorry to break it to you ring<em>of</em>fire, you have just described 30% of Michigan’s undergraduate student body. I had your stats and background too and when I was at Michigan, I never felt like I was above the other students. A huge portion of the student body had similar grades and scores to mine, and mostof my fellow classmates were world travellers. I had to bust my behind to keep up with my class mates and barely managed to do so. Do you honestly think all 30% of those students of your caliber get merit scholraships or pre-admitted into Ross?</p>

23

<p>

I apologize Alexandre as I definitely didn’t know you lived and worked here. I suppose you are a true Michigander.</p>

<p>See, I’m willing to admit when I’m clearly wrong as I was here with regards to your relationship with the state.</p>

<p>On a sad note Alex, Tapawingo is closing due to the bad economy. Yes, the economy in Michigan is truly THAT BAD.</p>

<p>

Is there evidence that Cornell and Duke students prepare harder for the SAT? Shouldn’t Michigan students be preparing equally hard for the ACT? Listen, I went to a public school in Michigan. The kids who aimed to stay in-state took MUCH EASIER classes than the ultra-competitive kids who were gung-ho about attending Ivy League caliber schools.</p>

<p>I took 11 AP classes in my high school and AP Bio was the only class that was advanced which I didn’t take. The average number of APs that people took in my high school was about 2. If you subtract the 15 smartest kids from that number, the average would probably drop to one as were clear outliers. Only a third of the top students in my grade went to the University of Michigan and I can assure you they are in the top 5-10% there.</p>

<p>The rest went to Stanford, Yale, Columbia, UPenn Wharton, Duke(2), Northwestern HPME, UChicago, NYU Stern and Notre Dame respectively.</p>

<p>If our high school weighted GPAs, the kids who went to the top private schools would be on a whole another level than the kids who ended up at Michigan.</p>

<p>There is a selectivity difference between Cornell/Duke and Michigan on USNWR although I feel that the ranking underestimates it.</p>

<p>

Well, I feel like I was in the top 10% of applicants and should have qualified for at least Regents or a little bit of aid. I’m not too bummed about the Ross rejection because I am not a fan of BBA programs. Overall, for me, Duke was a better deal. The problem is that Michigan isn’t in a bargaining position when a student gets the choice between it and the Ivy caliber schools unless it gives good FA. Otherwise, as is what happened in my case, the student simply chooses the higher ranked private school.</p>

<p>

Alex, you fail to understand that high schoolers don’t view Michigan as being on par with other top-notch privates you tout as its peers. Even though I think Michigan isn’t far behind and you think it is right on par, most high schoolers I know don’t see it that way.</p>

<p>UMich is a safety school for those aiming for the top 20 schools for out of state kids as well as for the strongest in-state kids. For these students to attend, Michigan would have to provide a financial incentive over competing private schools.</p>

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<p>“Is there evidence that Cornell and Duke students prepare harder for the SAT? Shouldn’t Michigan students be preparing equally hard for the ACT? Listen, I went to a public school in Michigan. The kids who aimed to stay in-state took MUCH EASIER classes than the ultra-competitive kids who were gung-ho about attending Ivy League caliber schools.”</p>

<p>You are wrong about Michigan students. Your experience is limited to 50 or 100 students that you know. Almost every Michigan student I crossed at Michigan (this numbers at about 1,000 over my 4 years at Michigan and another 1,000 since then) did not belong to either extreme that you list above. They were the kids who pushed themselves hard in high school, took anywhere from 3-5 APs their senior year of high school and 2-3 their Junior year and maintained a 3.9+ unweighed GPA and averaged 4s and 5s on their APs. They were also generally very involved in their hobbies and passtrimes. Most of them excelled at something, be it sports, arts, etc…At the same time, the the vast majority of those students wanted to stay in state and did not practice whatsoever for their SAT/ACT. In fact, they were told not to bother since Michigan de-emphasises them. Those same students, had their tried as hard for their SAT as I did would have averaged 1500/2250 on their SAT instead of 1350/2000. The only proof I can offer is the one I experienced. I thought I would be so much better than my fellow students. It turns out that my 300 point SAT advantage over my fellow classmates at Michigan made no difference. I had to study harder than most students to maintain a 3.45 GPA (top 30% but barely). I know so many students like me (who got into Ivies and Chicago, Duke, NU etc…) who chose Michigan and when at Michigan, had a rude awakening. They were not better than the typical student. We all thought we would get As because we’d be at the top of the curve. Well, it did not work out that way. </p>

<p>“I took 11 AP classes in my high school and AP Bio was the only class that was advanced which I didn’t take. The average number of APs that people took in my high school was about 2. If you subtract the 15 smartest kids from that number, the average would probably drop to one as were clear outliers. Only a third of the top students in my grade went to the University of Michigan and I can assure you they are in the top 5-10% there.”</p>

<p>I would estimate that those students were in the top 25%, not top 5%. The top 5% of students at Michigan have perfect grades and scores. By perfect, I mean 4.0 unweighed GPA, 2400 on the SAT/36 on the ACT and were probably very active in their ECs. </p>

<p>“If our high school weighted GPAs, the kids who went to the top private schools would be on a whole another level than the kids who ended up at Michigan.”</p>

<p>Your school is special then, because most high schools in Michigan send their top students to Michigan.</p>

<p>“There is a selectivity difference between Cornell/Duke and Michigan on USNWR although I feel that the ranking underestimates it.”</p>

<p>It is you who underestimates the selectivity at Michigan. </p>

<p>“Alex, you fail to understand that high schoolers don’t view Michigan as being on par with other top-notch privates you tout as its peers. Even though I think Michigan isn’t far behind and you think it is right on par, most high schoolers I know don’t see it that way.”</p>

<p>I don’t fail to understand anything. I have said as much for years. The only people who do not give Michigan its due are 15-25 year olds who have no clue and ignorant parents who are only slightly less ignorant. The rest of the World gets it.</p>

<p>“UMich is a safety school for those aiming for the top 20 schools for out of state kids as well as for the strongest in-state kids. For these students to attend, Michigan would have to provide a financial incentive over competing private schools.”</p>

<p>I am sure Michigan is a safety for some such students. Many of them will be seriously disapointed as Michigan is as selective as most of them. However, to the majority of students who chose to go to Michigan, they decided to pay the high tuition and attend it over other top 10 or top 15 universities because they don’t care what ignorant 15-25 year olds think and they personally chose to take the word of the educated and experienced people who continuously rate Michigan among the top 10 universities in the US.</p>

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<p>

The SAT isn’t that hard of an exam Alex, but historical performance on the exam shows its not easy to increase your score by 150 points. I really don’t think you can prepare for these standardized tests in any other way besides familiarizing yourself with the content and directions. You either have good literary comprehension due to having been an avid reader for years and have good problem solving skills from taking challenging math classes or you don’t. I think the Writing section can be improved by a lot of grammar practice if one is bad at writing, but a good writer will have no trouble with this section at all.</p>

<p>Michigan doesn’t de-emphasize the ACT. High school grades are more important but a good ACT score is probably the second most important thing Michigan considers. I know a lot more borderline Michigan candidates who studied for the ACT to get a score of 30 than the very intelligent kids in our grade who got a 34/35 on the exam without any prep.</p>

<p>I mean, a good SAT/ACT score should be the natural byproduct of a good high school education. It certainly was for me. I am somewhat suspicious of the borderline admits for Michigan who had 3.9+ UW GPAs but couldn’t crack a 30 on the ACT.</p>

<p>

[Over</a> 100 Score Perfect 2400 in New SAT](<a href=“http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/13/152341.shtml]Over”>http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/13/152341.shtml)
Only 100 students got a perfect SAT score in the country the first year it was administered Alex. There are even less kids who got perfect ACT scores. Even the top 5% at Harvard isn’t that strong.</p>

<p>I believe tetrahedr0n on this site got a perfect ACT score. Maybe he can tell you if he knows others that have perfect test scores at Michigan.</p>

<p>

You or I may not agree with it, but these “ignorant” high schoolers are the ones that select colleges and affect the selectivity ratings of universities through their decision making directly or indirectly. Perception is just as important as reality when it comes to university reputations. I’m just saying that Michigan not providing top students with financial incentives to pick it over private schools will only hurt Michigan’s image in the long run.</p>

<p>

Except Michigan students don’t routinely select it over the top 10 or 15 universities for any other reason but finances. Most Michigan admits are deciding between it and MSU, which is admittedly an easy decision. The ones who are looking to go out of state see the school as a safety option</p>

<p>If a student has a 32 or higher on the ACT and a 3.8 UW GPA, then they are guaranteed admission at Michigan.</p>

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<p>“The SAT isn’t that hard of an exam Alex, but historical performance on the exam shows its not easy to increase your score by 150 points. I really don’t think you can prepare for these standardized tests in any other way besides familiarizing yourself with the content and directions. You either have good literary comprehension due to having been an avid reader for years and have good problem solving skills from taking challenging math classes or you don’t. I think the Writing section can be improved by a lot of grammar practice if one is bad at writing, but a good writer will have no trouble with this section at all.”</p>

<p>I don’t agree. The SAT is a familiarity test. The more you practice for it, the better you do on it…to a point of course. A person will probably not benefit much beyond a certain point, but one must get to that point. </p>

<p>“Michigan doesn’t de-emphasize the ACT. High school grades are more important but a good ACT score is probably the second most important thing Michigan considers. I know a lot more borderline Michigan candidates who studied for the ACT to get a score of 30 than the very intelligent kids in our grade who got a 34/35 on the exam without any prep.”</p>

<p>Michigan used to award 12 points out of 120 points to the SAT/ACT and 80 points to the GPA. Michigan awarded more points to race and economic background than to ACT or SAT. Of course, the formula is no longer used by Michigan admissions, but the admissions philosophy at Michigan has not changed and the SAT/ACT remains a “not-so-important” factor, fifth behind (1) courses selection, (2) unweighed GPA), (3) class rank and (4) background and race. The first two count for 80% of Michigan’s admissions decisions. </p>

<p>“I mean, a good SAT/ACT score should be the natural byproduct of a good high school education. It certainly was for me. I am somewhat suspicious of the borderline admits for Michigan who had 3.9+ UW GPAs but couldn’t crack a 30 on the ACT.”</p>

<p>Not really, a good SAT/ACT score should be a natural byproduct of practicing the heck out of the test. Of course, a strong foundation in English and Math helps a good deal, but it is not the determining factor…practice and familiarity is. The majority of Michigan students I met bought a book a couple of weeks before the test and barely practicied. And the majority of them took the test only once. The people I know who went to elite private universities exhausted themselves for 6 months to get the SAT right and most of them took the SAT at least 3 times because they focused on one section each time since private universities super-score. Most people I know benefited on average by 100 points from the superscoring. On average, univerersities that superscore have a 50 point advantage as it is. Between the superscoring and the lack of preparation for the exam, you can pretty much explain away most of the difference in standardized test results differences between Michigan and its private peers. </p>

<p>"Only 100 students got a perfect SAT score in the country the first year it was administered Alex. There are even less kids who got perfect ACT scores. Even the top 5% at Harvard isn’t that strong.</p>

<p>I believe tetrahedr0n on this site got a perfect ACT score. Maybe he can tell you if he knows others that have perfect test scores at Michigan."</p>

<p>I am aware of how many students score 2400 ring<em>of</em>fire, but I am also aware that over 1,000 students score a perfect 1600 on the original sections of the SAT. And by perfect grades and scores, I include students who score a 2330+ on the SAT and have near perfect 4.0 GPAs. </p>

<p>“You or I may not agree with it, but these “ignorant” high schoolers are the ones that select colleges and affect the selectivity ratings of universities through their decision making directly or indirectly. Perception is just as important as reality when it comes to university reputations. I’m just saying that Michigan not providing top students with financial incentives to pick it over private schools will only hurt Michigan’s image in the long run.”</p>

<p>This is where your low opinion of Michigan kicks in. There are many students, who like you, think they are better than Michigan. However, there are enough students out there who love Michigan and who would rather pay full price at Michigan than full price at one of its peers. I am one of dozens such students I knew personally while at Michigan. </p>

<p>“Except Michigan students don’t routinely select it over the top 10 or 15 universities for any other reason but finances. Most Michigan admits are deciding between it and MSU, which is admittedly an easy decision. The ones who are looking to go out of state see the school as a safety option”</p>

<p>That is actually an opinion that you cannot substantiate. Most students I knew at Michigan (over 50%) had picked it over other peers (such as the Ivies, Cal, Chicago, Duke, NU etc…) and the majority of them were paying full tution. I was an Econ major and I took many advanced level courses, so obviously, students in my classes were among the better (top 30%) students at Michigan, but you would be amazed at how students pick Michigan over other top 10 or top 15 universities. According to the Princeton Review, Michigan students often consider and SOMETIMES (not rarely) chose Michigan over schools such as Cal, Cornell, Duke, MSU, Northwestern and Penn. According to Fiske, overalps with Michigan include MSU, Cornell, NU, Penn, Wash U., and Wisconsin-Madison. According to the Student’s Guide to Colleges, if you are interested in Michigan, you are also interested in Cal, UCLA, Cornell, Duke, Penn, UT-Austin and Wisconsin-Madison. </p>

<p>I definitely agree that Michigan is not winning the battle against several fellow top 10 or top 15 universities, but there are enough outstanding students out there (thousands annually) who really love Michigan and want to attend no matter what. Those students often chose Michigan over the likes of Cal, Duke and Johns Hopkins and in many cases, even over some of the Ivies such as Cornell and Penn. Those cases aren’t rare or unusual. We are talking about thousands of students currently at Michigan who chose it over other top 10 or top 15 universities. And Michigan almost always wins the recruiting battle vs lesser top 25 universities such as Emory, Vanderbilt and Washington University. </p>

<p>“If a student has a 32 or higher on the ACT and a 3.8 UW GPA, then they are guaranteed admission at Michigan.”</p>

<p>You should talk to the hundreds, if not thousands, of students with such grades and scores that were rejected by Michigan this year. Many posted their stats on this forum. Again, you underestimate Michigan’s selectivity. Many (if not most) OOS students with such grades and scores were in fact either deferred or rejected this year. In staters have it a little better, but not as much as you’d think.</p>

<p>At any rate ring<em>of</em>fire, to get back to the topic at hand, Michigan’s futrure is not volatile. It is private universities that have volatile futures. I would worry a lot more about your precious Duke than about Michigan. Roughly 25% of Duke’s annual operating costs are covered by your endowment and last I checked, your endowment dropped from well over $6 billion a year ago to well under $5 billion today. Less than 10% of Michigan’s annual operating budget costs are covered by our endowment, so even though Michigan’s endowment also lost roughly 25% of its value in the last year, its dependence on that endowment is not nearly as pronounced. Michigan’s ability to attract top students is also improving, as its selectivity ranking clearly shows. And Michigan’s facilities are also improving constantly. The new Ross building is sick, as are several other facilities recently completed around campus. Michigan is actually going to hire 100 new faculty over the next 4 years. How many new faculty will other Michigna peers hire in the next 3-4 years? So, to answer your question, there is no volatility. Michigan is doing very well relative to its peers.</p>

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<p>Michigan is definitely worth the price… I can’t think of any schools on par with it that would cost me less… unless you’re counting generous Ivy League financial aid.</p>

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<p>“Except Michigan students don’t routinely select it over the top 10 or 15 universities for any other reason but finances. Most Michigan admits are deciding between it and MSU, which is admittedly an easy decision. The ones who are looking to go out of state see the school as a safety option”</p>

<p>I go to a public school in Michigan, we’re a feeder to U of M typically sending 50-60 kids out of a class of ~300 per year, and, at least in our school, it is much more common for a student to chose Michigan over a top 10/top 15 school. It just doesn’t make sense to us why you would go anywhere else. It’s a top university, as said considered a top 10 by many, a great bargain for Michiganders, it’s in the state that we grew up in and love, and it’s close enough to our homes so we can visit on the weekends.</p>

<p>A friend of mine that goes to my school had grown up in Califronia. She had dreamed of going to Stanford since childhood. Last year she not only was admitted to Stanford, but she also was admitted to Cal Tech, Harvard, Northwestern, U Penn, JHU, and of course The University of Michigan. After a campus visit, she had no doubts, she is now enrolled at U of M. You may ask why, but the choice is clear and simple to many of us, U of M is the way to go. It was also very apparent to her that she could accomplish anything at U of M, her older brother had done his undergrad at Michigan, went to M.I.T. for his masters and PhD, and also received a medical degree from Harvard Med School, this guy, no doubt, was a prodigy in high school, and still decided to U of M, a name that equals any ivy league school in our eyes. He is now a Pathologist at Michigan’s health system/hospital. Her father also has a similar story, undergrad at U of M, then an M.B.A at Harvard, then a med degree at Stanford. </p>

<p>You may think this is one special case, but before school got out I was talking with my counselor and I was asking him since he started working here, how common was it for a student to go to Michigan over HYPS MIT and Cal Tech, he actually gave me a real statistic, not ‘off the top of my head’. In the past three years (since he started), we have had 24 out of 31 kids go to U of M instead of the aforementioned schools.</p>

<p>So to comment on what you said ring<em>of</em>fire, “The ones who are looking to go out of state see the school as a safety option”, I find this to be totally untrue.</p>

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<p>I know this is off topic. Alexandre, can you explain to me the process of a regular student coming into michigan and then doing well enough to get into the honors college. Is that possible, and is the honors system, lets say at LSA, comparable to Ivy League and other prestigious private universities and colleges.</p>

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<p>This is indeed off topic, but to answer your question, I am not sure if it is possible for students to get into the Honors program after matriculating into Michigan. You should ask the university directly, or perhaps a current student can answer the question. Back in my day, it was possible, but students who wished to do so had to maintain a particular GPA both cummulative and within their major in order to make the shift. However, back in my day, only 250 students joined the honors program with each incoming class of freshman. That number has now doubled to 500, so I am not sure if the University still allows students to transfer to Honors once they have started college.</p>

<p>“…is the honors system, lets say at LSA, comparable to Ivy League and other prestigious private universities and colleges.”</p>

<p>In terms of academic quality and reputation/prestige, all of Michigan (LSA non-honors, Engineering and Ross) is comparable to the Ivy League and other prestigious universities and colleges. In terms of student quality, the average Honors students has a mean SAT score of 1480 (not superscored), which is in fact as high as Harvard, Princeton and Yale and slightly higher than the remaining Ivies.</p>

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<p>Hook 'em horns ;)</p>

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<p>

You have no basis for your statement that Michigan students don’t prep for the SAT/ACT as hard as students who seek admission to Ivy League caliber private schools. If Michigan’s student body is as accomplished as you claim, then naturally a significant percent of the student body definitely sought admission to the top private schools as well, but decided on Michigan because of the financial advantage. Even in this case, these students would have to prep for the standardized tests because other schools deem them to be important.</p>

<p>You seem to be imagining a scenario where the vast majority of Michigan students only wanted to go to Michigan their whole lives, only applied there and thus only considered Michigan’s admissions requirements. This simply cannot be the truth because of UMich’s low yield. A 40% yield indicates that a large number of Michigan applicants also filed applications to other schools. And if Michigan is as good as you say it is, then these students applied primarily to the top privates and that is the only reason they turned down Michigan’s admission offer. Unless…you want to assert that UMich is losing out a significant number of kids to MSU and Wayne State. You and I both know THAT isn’t the case.</p>

<p>So, where is this magical 60% of kids who turn down Michigan going Alex? The top privates? Cheaper in-state schools? Either way you look at it, most Michigan applicants clear apply to a wide net of schools and thus the “they don’t prep for the SAT/ACT” argument is water under the bridge.</p>

<p>

I’m sure the admissions philosophy had to change somewhat due to the landmark Supreme Court case. Applicants who get good grades are a dime a dozen Alex. UMich needs other factors such as standardized tests to differentiate students. If the University of Michigan is committed to enrolling the strongest and most diverse student body possible, then SAT/ACT scores are undoubtedly the second most important factor after the strength of curriculum.</p>

<p>

Practice and familiarity only matter if you are not academically superb to begin with. You and I never had to practice for the SAT Alex. Most private school kids didn’t prep too hard for these tests either. A tough high school curriculum more than prepares one for these exams. You have no proof like I said before that most Michigan kids didn’t seek to gain admission to private schools as well.</p>

<p>In your example, you applied to a number of private schools, so you clearly didn’t adhere SOLELY to Michigan’s admissions standards. The same can be said of at least half of the in-state kids and ALL of the out of state kids. Come on, are you that naive to believe that out of state kids consider Michigan to be their first choice? Most Michigan students from New Jersey, New York and California(popular states that Michigan students hail from), UMich was one of maybe 15 schools that they applied to during the admissions process? Can you blame them? Not every state is fortunate to have a world-class university like the University of Michigan in its area.</p>

<p>You overestimate the interest that high school applicants to UMich have for the school. It is one of MANY choices just like it was for you back in 1991.</p>

<p>

Fair enough. I don’t know what saying the top 5% of Michigan get above 2300 on the SAT proves though. The same can be said of NYU and USC, which are ranked below Michigan on USNWR.</p>

<p>

Perhaps for some in-state kids, but no out of state kid would choose Michigan over Duke, Cornell, Wash U, Chicago, JHU, etc. unless finances were deeply involved in the calculation. That is today’s reality and I believe that Michigan was a lot more prestigious and popular among high schoolers in the 1990s than it is now unfortunately.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I don’t know how to use the quote boxes on CC, but ROF wrote:</p>

<p>“Come on, are you that naive to believe that out of state kids consider Michigan to be their first choice?”</p>

<p>I’m from out of state (Maryland) and am part of UMich’s Class of 2013. Michigan has always been my top choice, even back in September of 2008. I know a lot of my friends from my school and from other schools in the Baltimore/DC metropolitan area who have also picked Michigan as their top choice.</p>

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<p>^Welcome to the Wolverine family!:)</p>

<p>However, you and your friends choices are in the minority of those who apply to Michigan out of state. This has nothing to do with Michigan’s attractiveness, but rather the fact that it is strange to idolize and only apply to one school when one is not a resident of the state, whether the school be public or private. The same can be said of HYPSM.</p>

<p>Nearly all out of state students apply to multiple schools(10+) and don’t just randomly apply to Michigan only.</p>

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<p>“You have no basis for your statement that Michigan students don’t prep for the SAT/ACT as hard as students who seek admission to Ivy League caliber private schools. If Michigan’s student body is as accomplished as you claim, then naturally a significant percent of the student body definitely sought admission to the top private schools as well, but decided on Michigan because of the financial advantage. Even in this case, these students would have to prep for the standardized tests because other schools deem them to be important.”</p>

<p>Not really, the majority of Michigan students (66%) are instaters and the vast majority of those (over 75%) had 3.7+ unweighed high school GPAs and never thought of applying out of state because it makes no sense. They know that their chances at HYPSM aren’t great and no other university makes sense since they are either equal or inferior. Most of those students apply to Michigan as their first choice and MSU as their safety. Very few (a quarter or so) apply OOS. </p>

<p>“You seem to be imagining a scenario where the vast majority of Michigan students only wanted to go to Michigan their whole lives, only applied there and thus only considered Michigan’s admissions requirements. This simply cannot be the truth because of UMich’s low yield. A 40% yield indicates that a large number of Michigan applicants also filed applications to other schools.”</p>

<p>Michigan’s yield was 46% last year (70% for in-staters and 30% for our of staters). It has been in the 45% range for the last 4 years. And yes, the scenario that the vast majority of in-staters do not bother catering to the requirements of out of state universities is very much a reality. Michigan is one of those states that has a virtual fence that keeps most in-staters in the state. Seldom do Michigan residents leave the state. Of the 30% of the Michigan residents who turn down Michigan, roughly a third of them go to MSU or another in-state school on a full ride. Overall, only 20%-25% of students admitted into Michigan will go for an OOS option. Like I said, in-staters don’t usually leave, even the very best of them. Now I am not saying that none of Michigan’s students prepare for the SAT. I certainly did. Most OOS students do. I would also estimate that a quater of IS students do as well. So altogether, I would estimate that 50% of students at Michigan prepared for the SAT/ACT. However, at schools such as the Ivies and other elite private universities, that number is closer to 100%. </p>

<p>“And if Michigan is as good as you say it is, then these students applied primarily to the top privates and that is the only reason they turned down Michigan’s admission offer. Unless…you want to assert that UMich is losing out a significant number of kids to MSU and Wayne State. You and I both know THAT isn’t the case.”</p>

<p>Michigan loses a lot of OOS students to other universities because it isn’t the top choice to all OOS students. In fact, like any university (even its top 10 or top 15 peers), Michigan is not the top choice to the majority of OOS applicants. Only HYPSM and a couple of other universities are the first choice to more than 50% of the students from outside their geographic area. What is Duke’s yield for non-East coast students? 35%? How about Cornell’s? 40%? At Michigan, 30% of OOS students end up chosing Michigan. That is not bad. In most cases, the students who turn down a top university like Cornell or Michigan for another school, there many who get a better deal from their in-state flagships (like UIUC, Wisconsin, UT-Austin, UVa, William and Mary, GT, PSU, Cal, UCLA, OSU, Indiana etc…). Why should someone spend $200,000+ on a private university or $180,000 on Michigan when they can spend $100,000 on UVa or Cal…or $80,000 on UT-Austin or Wisconsin? Others get more financial aid from peer institutions such as the Ivies and Chicago and Northwestern. Admittedly, private universities generally offer better aid to the average OOS applicant. State universities are obligated to first meet the needs of their in-state students. Finally, others just flat out prefer other universities for whatever reason. That’s the case with all universities, including the Ivy League and Michigan. I never claimed Michigan was everybody’s first choice. In fact, I admitted that many students (particularly OOS applicants) like Michigan less than most top 10 or top 15 universities.</p>

<p>“So, where is this magical 60% of kids who turn down Michigan going Alex? The top privates? Cheaper in-state schools? Either way you look at it, most Michigan applicants clear apply to a wide net of schools and thus the “they don’t prep for the SAT/ACT” argument is water under the bridge.”</p>

<p>Well, the 54% (not 60%) are for the most part OOS students who have no special attachment to the University of Michigan and go to other schools for the reason I mentioned above. But in the case of in-staters, only 20%-25% of students admitted into Michigan will opt to leave the state of Michigan. It is fair to say that many of those NEVER intended to leave the state. In fact, most in-state students I met at Michigan only applied to Michigan and MSU. Those students had no incentive to prepare for the SAT. This is changing with 3.8+ GPAs and 1400+ SAT is no longer enough to guarantee admission.</p>

<p>“I’m sure the admissions philosophy had to change somewhat due to the landmark Supreme Court case. Applicants who get good grades are a dime a dozen Alex. UMich needs other factors such as standardized tests to differentiate students. If the University of Michigan is committed to enrolling the strongest and most diverse student body possible, then SAT/ACT scores are undoubtedly the second most important factor after the strength of curriculum.”</p>

<p>I hope not ring<em>of</em>fire, to me, GPA and curriculum is much more importan than SAT/ACT. I would never judge a person by how they do on a standardized exam and neither would Michigan. I personally hope that never changes. </p>

<p>“Practice and familiarity only matter if you are not academically superb to begin with. You and I never had to practice for the SAT Alex. Most private school kids didn’t prep too hard for these tests either. A tough high school curriculum more than prepares one for these exams. You have no proof like I said before that most Michigan kids didn’t seek to gain admission to private schools as well.”</p>

<p>Speak for yourself ring<em>of</em>fire, I practiced hard for the SAT and I took the test twice. I close to ten 5s on my APs and 5 As on my A Level Exams, but the SAT was different altogether. The format was specific. My sisters, both got “mention tres bien avec les felicitations du jury” on the French baccalaureat. That puts them in the top 1% of the French system and eligible for any French university. Somehow, they both barely broke the 1000 mark on the SAT, and both of them were fluent in English. Their academic foundation blows ours away. The French system is many fold tougher than the American or British system. Their poor results (relatively speaking) was entirely due to the fact that they never practiced for the SAT. One of my sisters later scored a 2270 on the GRE because she actually studied for it and the other syster got a 760 on the GMAT because she also practiced. Those exams are all designed to favor the familiar.</p>

<p>“In your example, you applied to a number of private schools, so you clearly didn’t adhere SOLELY to Michigan’s admissions standards. The same can be said of at least half of the in-state kids and ALL of the out of state kids. Come on, are you that naive to believe that out of state kids consider Michigan to be their first choice? Most Michigan students from New Jersey, New York and California(popular states that Michigan students hail from), UMich was one of maybe 15 schools that they applied to during the admissions process? Can you blame them? Not every state is fortunate to have a world-class university like the University of Michigan in its area.”</p>

<p>I never said OOS students do not prepare for the SAT, but OOS students make up less than 35% of the undergraduate student population. Two thirds of Michigan undergrads are residents of Michigan and most of them do not prepare that hard for the SAT or ACT.</p>

<p>“You overestimate the interest that high school applicants to UMich have for the school. It is one of MANY choices just like it was for you back in 1991.”</p>

<p>I do not overestimate Michigan’s appeal. I have admitted several times that high schools are impressed by meaningless factors that does in fact hurt Michigan. I never denied that. </p>

<p>“Perhaps for some in-state kids, but no out of state kid would choose Michigan over Duke, Cornell, Wash U, Chicago, JHU, etc. unless finances were deeply involved in the calculation.”</p>

<p>No OOS kid would chose Michigan over Duke or Cornell etc… unless finances were a factor eh? None whatsoever? Not a single one of Michigan’s 700 OOS freshmen with nearly perfect GPAs, 1400+ on the SAT or with 32+ on the ACT was admitted into those schools and opted to attend Michigan where finances were not a factor? Remember that the majority of OOS students pay full tuition because as we all know, Michigan does not give out many merit scholarships to OOS students and as we both know, Michigan is not overally generous to OOS with FA. I would say that roughly 500 of those OOS Freshmen had close to 4.0 GPAs and an average SAT/ACT in the 1450/33 range AND no financial incentive to attend Michigan. Are you telling me that not a single one of those 500 OOS freshmen was accepted into an Ivy League or another one of Michigan’s private peers? None ONE?Wow! ring<em>of</em>fire, are you sure about that? I would estimate (with sufficient exposure to live cases) that in the case where finances are a non-issue, most OOS students (over 60%) TODAY would chose Michigan over Washington University, roughly 40%-50% would chose Michigan over JHU and many (over 25%)would chose Michigan over the others you mentioned. </p>

<p>“That is today’s reality and I believe that Michigan was a lot more prestigious and popular among high schoolers in the 1990s than it is now unfortunately.”</p>

<p>I agree and disagree with that. I agree that to a lot of high schoolers, Michigan does not receive the credit it deserves. This is why Michigan has, as I admitted above, a less than 50% yield rate vs some top 10 or top 15 universities such as Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Duke. However, Michigan is more prestigious among high schools today than it was 20 years ago, when I applied to college. Regardless, many very talented high school students (IS, OOS and International) still have Michigan at (or near) the top of their list. A university does not have to be everybody’s dream school. As long as there are enough such students top fill the class with enough talented students, a university will always have a vibrant intellectual community.</p>

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<p>“Come on, are you that naive to believe that out of state kids consider Michigan to be their first choice?”</p>

<p>Obviously OOS students apply to Michigan and view it as they do most other universities ranked between #6 and #50. To some, Michigan is indeed their first choice, to many, it is a top 3 choice and to others, it is toward the bottom of their list of schools. One can say the same of any other university. There is no black or white scenario in college admissions and selection.</p>

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<p>

Michigan’s yield was 69% for in-state last year and around 30% for OOS including internationals. This is a well known fact on this forum. Do you want to revise your argument with this “new” information?</p>

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<p>just look around in this forum, how many people picked michigan over those schools you listed? half of my friends at michigan picked michigan over those schools that you considered to be superior, including myself. and they/i didn’t even have good grades at michigan. </p>

<p>i can’t help but picture this poor guy thought he was going to be the valedictorian at michigan, get a full scholarship because he was one of the few smart kids at his high school and he did well on a test one saturday morning, and then get no scholarship and didn’t get in ross. i mean seriously, as soon as I got my first C at Michigan, all that high school stuff just went out the window.</p>

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<p>I’ll be going to Michigan as a graduate student in a few weeks from now. I’m looking forward to it. I’ve read thru most of this thread and other related threads like the one about Michigan being on par with Ivy leage. I gotta say that I’m a baffled.</p>

<p>I baffled that there is so much emphasis and discussion on the undergraduate level and ranking, when the University’s emphasis is on graduate level research. My gut is that the administrators goal is to make University of Michigan a World Class RESEARCH institution which also educates the undergraduates of the state of Michigan. I can’t imagine that the administrators want Umich to be an Ivy of the Midwest. On the graduate level the rankings are great. The graduate rankings compare with the Ivy league, Stanford, Cal tech, Mit etc. As far as I can see, there is no graduate level rankings decline.</p>

<p>Just look at where they put thier money. Didn’t they just spend 100 million to buy 30 or so Pfizer building for purpose of research. This investment isn’t for the undergrads…I think. Perhaps somebody can correct me if I’m wrong.</p>

<p>The starter of this threads expressed concerns about undergraduate price and quality and is met with endless stats about the undergrad student body when he should be met with a dicussion of Umich’s emphsis on the graduate level. I believe the OP has a point about the undergrad quality, and I think it is would be a good discussion to understand if Michigan should be focusing more on undergrad.</p>

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<p>Jack, Michigan IS a research university. So are Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Penn and Stanford. Why is Michigan any different from any of those schools? I am not sure I understand your point about Michigan being purely a graduate school. Michigan offers undergraduate degrees too and its undergraduate programs are just as good as its graduate programs. In fact, some departments, such as Chemistry and Economics, are far more undergraduate focused and better at the undergraduate level than at the graduate level. But like all the other research institutions mentioned above, graduate programs tend to be well funded and dominant. Graduate programs do not take away from the undergraduate quality, they merely reinforce undergraduate education. Michigan values its undergraduate programs a great deal and is in fact just as good at undergraduate edcucation as it is at graduate education. </p>

<p>The OP has no point. Michigan is not volatile. If anything, Michigan is in a better position than most of its peers. And yes, among Michigan’s many peers are elite public universities such as Cal and UVa and top private universities, including several Ivy League Universities. Do you really want to associate with the OP? He claims that Duke is in a “different league” than Rice! He says that Duke is “clearly superior” to Brown and Cornell. He says that “nobody” choses Michigan over Chicago, Cornell, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, Washington University etc… He says that Michigan undergrads are not as respected as undergrads at private universities. Do you honestly want to align yourself with this sort of trash?</p>

<p>Quite frankly, I am not sure what your point is either. Most top universities are graduate focused. Harvard and Stanford certainly are. They pay practically no attention to their undergrads. Maybe you would be better served going to another graduate school…one like Amherst College or Wesleyan University, where you can be proud of the institution’s undergraduate focus. Maybe you should just return to Carleton and get your graduate education there. Since they do not offer graduate programs, I am sure you will now argue that it is superior to Michigan for undergraduate education right?</p>