The Veggie Debate

<p>as for veg. people being dumb:
I scored a 2390 on my SAT and Rochester is my safety…
btw I don’t adore peta…I personally don’t believe in their aggressive approach.</p>

<p>and now lemme say: what proof do you have? Show me the source…</p>

<p>PLEASE DONT TRY TO CONVINCE ME WITH YOUR REASONING. I WILL NOT EAT MEAT EVEN IF EATING IT MAKES ME SMARTER. </p>

<p>"well just to prove your point that you can be a meat eater (normal eater) and still love animals."
YOU CAN THINK SO....BUT I DONT. I DONT EAT MY FRIENDS. PERIOD.</p>

<p>AND I STILL THINK
"Someone is on the governments list for risks." WAS VERY VERY MEAN.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dietobio.com/vegetarisme/en/vit_b12.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dietobio.com/vegetarisme/en/vit_b12.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.theomnivore.com/veg%20diet%20bad%20for%20brain.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theomnivore.com/veg%20diet%20bad%20for%20brain.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Ravin, that comment that you said was very very low that Rochester is your safety. Oh, and by the way, I could have gotten into JHU, however I believe the educational experience at Rochester is alot more personal and that's what I wanted.</p>

<p>(And by the way, posters distributed by PETA do not count as sources due to their inherant biases. So eveything that you have taken from those posters do not count one bit)</p>

<p>Wow, I posted way back on page one of this thread, and it's really taken off since then. Anyway, the major statistics on vegetarian/veganism have already been presented, debated on, etc. I just wanted to toss in my ethical viewpoint here. Make of it what you will.</p>

<p>For those of you who know ethics, I'm sure you're familiar with the moral theory of utilitarianism. Basically, what it boils down to is this- what's morally right is what results in the best outcome for all involved. A lot of people subscribe to this theory, and not without reason. It's thought based, but it's also fairly instinctual. For the most part in our lives, we strive to do things that will make us and those around us most satisfied, right? Well that's utilitarianism at its very core.</p>

<p>Now, utility theory also provides a very strong basis for arguing the ethics of vegetarianism/veganism, provided you consider the interests of animals as well as people when deciding how to actualize the greatest good. Think about it this way- when it comes to my eating meat, there are two interested parties- me and the animal. My interest is in satisfying a craving; the animal's is in survival. Now, to me, the choice here is clear cut. His interest, being more dire and impacting, is more important. I give up only something small by not eating meat, and because of it the animal is spared a much larger hurt. </p>

<p>I realize that this is all an idealistic way of looking at the situation. You could easily argue that just because I don't eat the animal doesn't mean someone else won't. That's true. But if you're going to change people's minds, you have to start with yourself. Gandhi said you must be the change you wish to see in the world. I really think that's true. Maybe one person can't do a lot alone, but an idea can. You don't have to look far in history to see that.</p>

<p>I take a lot of crap for being a vegan, and some people think it's rather absurd, but I know very few of them who've taken the time to actually think it over. As I said in my first post (way back on page one:)), just saying it's "natural" to eat meat means nothing to me ethically. Neither does the argument "people are more important than animals," or any variation thereof. </p>

<p>What I'm wondering is, what makes us inherently more important than other animals? If you put aside those who would argue religiously about the soul and the afterlife and all that (those people are really impossible to argue with anyway- they always have god on their side, lol), most would say it's reason. Humans think and act on a higher level than animals. In many cases this is true, but there are flaws in that way of thinking. First of all, if we're going to pick a certain level of reasoning ability at which to draw the line of who "matters" ethically, we're going to end up including some animals with high cognative abilities (monkeys, dolphins, etc) and excluding members of our own species who do not have these same threshholds of thought (the very young, the mentally disabled, the senile). So that kind of division doesn't really work out, logically. </p>

<p>What I'm trying to say is that saying we're more important because of our species is pretty random. In the 1500s the conquerors of the Americas decided the interests of native Americans were less important than their own, so they were justified in killing them and taking their land. Less than 200 years ago in this country we enslaved black Americans because we had the notion that they were inferior to us. How outdated do those views look now? Arbitrary divisions of who matters and who doesn't get us nowhere. All I'm arguing for is that we stop drawing this line at species. There is nothing inherent to our species that makes us more worthy of consideration than animals. </p>

<p>Now, before you go jumping down my throat about how i'm saying it's always just as bad to kill a cow as a human being, let me just say something. All I'm arguing for is that animals be given EQUAL consideration. That does not mean MORE consideration than humans.</p>

<p>And there are cases where human interest trumps animal interest, certainly. Feed starving africans meat or let them die so animals may live? definitely feed the people. But the logic behind that is not "because they're human, so they're more important." It's that when you weigh the interests of both parties equally, the people's interests are more substantial. their deaths will probably cause greater suffering to those around them (friends, family, etc). they might leave behind jobs that need to be filled. in general, their deaths will probably be more disruptive to the world around them than the deaths of the animals they could eat to survive. </p>

<p>But as for me, I live in America. I don't need to eat meat, and I don't want to. I have no interest in supporting an industry that exploits its workers so awfully and treats animals so cruelly. It's really as simple as that. </p>

<p>p.s. sorry, I didn't mean for that to come out quite so long. lol.</p>

<p>Although I may not agree with you fully on your opinions. I think what you said was very well thought out and articulated. Thank you for that.</p>

<p>scarlet,
that was nice of you.
vegan girl,
i think you presented your points extremly well...unlike me..:D</p>

<p>I very much appreciate and respect well thought out and logical arguments. Those arguments get a lot farther than ones sprinkled with emotion, although I can understand that certain topics (including this one definitely arouse emotion)</p>

<p>I'm just glad that most of us can remain civil. :)</p>

<p>Just to let you know, your argument makes absolutely no sense at all...
Let's take a lion and a zebra... According to your argument the lion has a craving and the zebra wants to survive. Thus the zebra's "interest, being more dire and impacting, is more important". Thus according to your philiosophy the lion should not eat the zebra. However the lion NEEDS to kill the zebra in a way that is frankly crueler than the human method of slaughtering it.
And then you would say that the lion can't think otherwise. Well I can take this two routes:
1) If the lion can't think on its own than any other animal whether it be a cow for beef or a pig for pork cannot think on its own and thus you just proved that your theory is a bunch of BS
2) What's with the lion having canines and us having canines? Lions eat meat and have canines. Now fill in the blank: Humans eat _______ and have canines. Hmmm.... what could be the only thing to fit in that blank? MEAT!!! Do you know why its meat???? because we are supposed to eat meat
Reasons why we are supposed to eat meat:
1) Animal proteins are needed by the human body (and no, proteins from legumes do not count)
2) The body NEEDS vitamin B-12 which can only be supplied by animals
3) "Our physiology definitely indicates a mixed feeder, or an omnivore, much the same as our relatives, the mountain gorilla and chimpanzee (who have been observed eating small animals and, in some cases, other primates)" We have HCl in our stomachs which is meant for the breakdown of meat. We also do not have multiple stomachs like plant eaters...
4) What are those canines for?
There are many many other reasons as well</p>

<p>vegangirl - I agree, and as said, very well said.</p>

<p>hopkinslax - Honestly, you're argument of the lion and zebra makes no sense. The lion needs the zebra to survive; we don't. It's a chain. One could say we're at the top of the food chain, but if you take away our guns and methods of killing animals, we're actually quite low on the food chain. If a lion could think and operate a gun, I'm sure he would be at the very top. </p>

<p>If you look at the evolution of human teeth; the canines are actually quite "recent." We actually had herbivore teeth in the early days of evolution (or whatever you believe). I'll try to find some information to back this up with, though.</p>

<p>hopkinslax, most animals live entirely in the realm of instinct. therefore you cannot apply ethical theories involving reason to them. HOWEVER, just because a being isn't capable of acting with the same moral standards we hold for humans doesn't mean we shouldn't consider its interests in deciding how to act. "the animal doesn't know any better" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. Why? As I said, there are plenty of humans who "don't know any better" or have reason or a sense of ethics. But no one would imply that these human beings don't deserve consideration. So if we're not going to exclude those humans, then I don't think we should exclude animals either. </p>

<p>Also, I explained earlier why I don't agree with points along the lines of "this is what's natural," which is what you seem to be getting at with your teeth/vitamins/stomach juices argument. But I'll throw it in here one more time. </p>

<p>Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's ethical. Having sex all the time/bringing a very large amount of children into the world may be the biologically natural thing for humans to do, but most would say it's morally reprehensible. Same thing with letting the weak in our society (physically handicapped, very old, etc.) die off. Natural, but not ethical. Meat eating may have once been necessary for human survival, hence our biological predisposition for it. But that's no longer the case.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.onelife.com/evolve/manev.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>That's an article on human evolution - I found it not by looking under vegetarian, but under "evolution of human teeth." haha. Anyway, it's a little weak, but as you can find in human evolution, "we" didn't start eating meat until homo erectus - until then, we were herbivores.</p>

<p>Of course, that brings into debate evolution and creation, but I just wanted to show that my point is true. </p>

<p>Honestly, I don't think any of us are going to change the others mind, so I don't think we should turn nasty and take cheap shots. I'm a vegetarian, but I respect people who eat meat, unless they do something like "Mmm, I'm eating a chicken burrito from taco bell." That is a bit cheap. Also, I do not believe I am better than a meat eater, nor do I believe a meat eater is better than I am. I do think we need to be a little nicer though - specifically, aravinhurt. </p>

<p><em>steps off soapbox</em></p>

<p>Hey, that's interesting. I didn't know any of that teeth stuff.</p>

<p>Like oneiros, I don't necessarily have a problem with all meat eaters. If i did, I'd probably find it difficult to get along in my daily life:) I mean, do I think my choice is the better one? Of course, that's why I chose it. But I don't look down on people who don't think the same way as I do. </p>

<p>Happy new year, all :)</p>

<p>"Meat eating may have once been necessary for human survival, hence our biological predisposition for it. But that's no longer the case."
Let me ask you where you come up with "that's no longer the case" (I find this pretty humorous in that you are completely contradicting yourself... "Also, I explained earlier why I don't agree with points along the lines of "this is what's natural,")
We NEED meat in your daily lives!!!
As for the morality part of it:
The animals would have died anyway in the wild with A LOT of pain compared to instant death</p>

<p>No, you don't need meat in your daily life. </p>

<p>Sorry, I just totally do not agree with that. My brother has been a vegetarian most of his life and he is healthy. I've been a vegetarian for a few years and I'm healthy. I know people who have been vegetarians their whole life, and they are healthy. "Need" is a strong word, and in this case, used improperly.</p>

<p>Originally posted by Vegangirl:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Think about it this way- when it comes to my eating meat, there are two interested parties- me and the animal. My interest is in satisfying a craving; the animal's is in survival. Now, to me, the choice here is clear cut. His interest, being more dire and impacting, is more important. I give up only something small by not eating meat, and because of it the animal is spared a much larger hurt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Originally posted by Hopkinslax:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Let's take a lion and a zebra... According to your argument the lion has a craving and the zebra wants to survive. Thus the zebra's "interest, being more dire and impacting, is more important". Thus according to your philiosophy the lion should not eat the zebra. However the lion NEEDS to kill the zebra in a way that is frankly crueler than the human method of slaughtering it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, isn't the comparison between a human to a meat souce and a lion to a meat source completely different? In the human case, we can choose to eat other "foods for surivival," because we, as you have stated, are omnivores. Lions however, are carnivores, and their insticts are to eat meat, not to chew on vegetables.</p>

<p>"The body NEEDS vitamin B-12 which can only be supplied by animals"</p>

<p>Kind of sounds similar to how humans NEED oxygen, and how we NEED water.</p>

<p>If our body NEEDS vitamin B-12, and it can ONLY be supplied by animals, how are vegetarians ALIVE in the first place? So I'm guessing the vitamin B-12 dietry supplements I'm is taking is in reality, not vitamin B-12, because afterall, it can ONLY be supplied through the consumption of MEAT.</p>

<p>"The animals would have died anyway in the wild with A LOT of pain compared to instant death"</p>

<p>This is straight-off, an assumption. You haven't visited all the producers of our meat products. You don't know how they treat them, nor have you directly compared this to the majority of the animal's death in the wild. You assume that they would die a slower and painful death. How does a hunter know that the animal they "instantly killed" could not have led a peaceful life and died of old age, had it been set free? </p>

<p>That's some morality right there, isn't it?</p>

<p>hopkinslax- where do I come up with "that's no longer the case"? Well, it's fairly simple. There are many vegetarians in the world, leading healthy lives and in general not dying off. So that leads me to believe that meat is not necessary for survival. Only a conjecture, of course;)</p>

<p>Also, like I said, biological arguments about our need for meat aren't important to me, ethically. My point about it not being necessary for humans to eat meat was really only disprove your argument that it's ethical to eat meat because we have to do it. That's clearly not the case, is all I'm trying to get across here. </p>

<p>Your other point is kind of baseless. The suffering inflicted on animals in factory farms is far more prolonged than that of animals killed in the wild by predators. Plus, there is an obvious difference between killing something for your own survival and enslaving and abusing something for its entire life, then killing it just so you can have more choice in what you eat.</p>

<p>Im not going to argue that vegetarians and vegans cannot lead healthy lives, because I know they can. Nor do I find vegans or vegetarians to be absurd. However I do find many of them to be in the same light as radical christians. That is they seem to look down on people that are not vegetarians and attempt to prosyletize. I dont like how animals are treated either but then again I dont like how a lot of things are handled in this world. I believe its important to pick your battles, and since banning the consumption of meat is virtually impossible, I dont think its right to argue about it. </p>

<p>I mean I have been to a slaughterhouse before, ive smelt and seen some pretty disgusting stuff, but its nothing new. This world is not how most of Americans see it and its not right for people that live sheltered lives to tell others to give up something that really is not abnormal or destructive to society. </p>

<p>The Vegan movement will never become completely widespread because there will always be more urgent issues to think about. Personally I care more about a lack of alternative sources of energy than meat issues.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your other point is kind of baseless. The suffering inflicted on animals in factory farms is far more prolonged than that of animals killed in the wild by predators. Plus, there is an obvious difference between killing something for your own survival and enslaving and abusing something for its entire life, then killing it just so you can have more choice in what you eat.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You see I have a problem with this logic. If an animal is used to being pushed around and beaten its whole life(which is short anyway), how do you know if the animal really expects anything different? Sure if I kept you in my house and beat you around and gave you disgusting food, im sure you would take offense but only because you know of better ways to live. Animals produced for consumption often do not recognize what it is to be treated humanely, because they have never experienced what we would consider a happy way of life. How do you know that factory farm animals have not become content with their fate? I would even beg to question if it is really suffering, can animals really consciously feel, and if so, how do you know?</p>

<p>Wouldn't it go both ways then? I mean, how do you know if they ARE suffering? It's not like we could talk with them. </p>

<p>It all goes back to the whole morality thing again. If you knew that being treated in such a way was bad, why inflict it on animals just because you assume the fact that they don't know its suffering? </p>

<p>I mean really, I doubt that animals could become content with pain. It's quite possible to see that they dislike such treatment, because animals do retaliate. I don't see many content animals retaliating to a kindly treatment.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Wouldn't it go both ways then? I mean, how do you know if they ARE NOT suffering? It's not like we could talk with them.</p>

<p>It all goes back to the whole morality thing again. If you knew that being treated in such a way was bad, why inflict it on animals just because you assume the fact that they don't know its suffering?</p>

<p>I mean really, I doubt that animals could become content with pain. It's quite possible to see that they dislike such treatment, because animals do retaliate. I don't see many content animals retaliating to a kindly treatment.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Indeed, it does go both ways. But I dont think people around the world have the time or the patience to run tests to see if these animals really suffer and if so how much they suffer. Its a selfish tradeoff, people want meat and they will take what they can get. Whether thats through a gun or being a predator, animals will use whatever methods necessary to get a leg up on the competition. I dont see a problem with that. </p>

<p>As for the morality argument, it depends on what culture you ask. If morality is based around religion, then many religions are completely anthropocentric in nature and find that killing animals is normal and a healthy way of life. Others, such as many native american tribes are content with killing animals but only if we use every part of the animal. Others wont kill certain animals(ie. pigs) not because they respect them but because they are seen as dirty animals that carry disease. The flaw in your logic is just because your moral thinking sees the animal as being your equal, doesnt mean most of society agrees with you. Again if this movement was to work you would need to change peoples empirical morality which is too big of a battle to win. </p>

<p>Animals do communicate pain or discomfort, but how do you know that they dont expect that? Why should we fight a battle that is impossible to win over a possibilty that animals feel humiliated? Would you rather we wine and dine animals and then slaughter them? Whats the difference? Animals do live sad lives comparatively and then they die. But everything dies, are certain animal rights supposed to be a given? Especially if for the longest time many humans didnt even have rights(and many still dont).</p>

<p>Just because animals don't expect differently doesn't mean our current treatment of them is ethical. Would you say the way that slave owners in the 1800s treated their slaves was ethical simply because the slaves didn't know any better? I don't think so. We can't argue that just because society is set up in a way that's abusive to a certain group that it's all right, just because it's always been that way. </p>

<p>*The flaw in your logic is just because your moral thinking sees the animal as being your equal, doesnt mean most of society agrees with you. Again if this movement was to work you would need to change peoples empirical morality which is too big of a battle to win. *</p>

<p>I fail to see how my moral thinking deviating from the norm makes it flawed. Change has to start with someone. And I for one don't think ethics should be based on societal norms. Just because the majority or those in power feel a certain way doesn't make it morally right. Well, unless you're a Thomas Hobbes fan. But if that's the case, it's an argument for another day:)</p>

<p>Anyway, change takes time. American society spent hundreds of years relegating women to a lower status before the majority of people were finally able to agree that they deserved rights. That doesn't make the earliest feminists' logic flawed. It just means society hadn't yet caught up with them.</p>