<p>scarlet,
that is something every meat eater likes to believe. </p>
<p>"I am pretty sure are in the German constitution. The animals live pretty nicely here, compared to most places, we don't have slaughterhouses or anything "</p>
<p>so if there are no slaughterhouses do the animals drop dead of their own accord???</p>
<p>do you believe this - electrocuting and then slitting the throat is classified as ethical. well it is true. </p>
<p>animals dont drop dead. each and every country in the world has slaughterhouses. and even the most "ethical" ways to kill an animal are downright unethical.</p>
<p>human beings are miserable. all they care about is money. they always find loopholes to exploit even the most stringest of laws.
:(</p>
<p>It doesn't bother too much whether it is true or not. I think there are far worse "unethical" things going on to humans than animals in the developed world. I'd personally like to worry about the plight of humans first before moving onto the animals and plants. </p>
<p>What I meant by slaughterhouses is large industrial places where they keep and kill many animals. When I was in America I saw a couple of them: a huge warehouse where the kept chickens to kill them later. </p>
<p>SCARLET,
I DIDNT WANT TO BE SARCASTIC. i like and respect you as a person :)</p>
<p>"It doesn't bother too much whether it is true or not. I think there are far worse "unethical" things going on to humans than animals in the developed world."</p>
<p>This is coming from some personal experience and anecdotes:</p>
<p>My school has a big project helping out in Tanzania and another independent one out in Romania. When you see the extreme poverty, children starving, people dying of AIDS, run down buildings, unhygenic hospitals, crying malnourished babies, parched and destroyed crops, bombed out buildings, etc it is hard to look at a cow in the US or in Germany and the UK and think I should spend my time converting well fed and nourished people in the developed world to vegetarianism. That just doesn't sit well with me. I'd prefer to help the humans in dire need first. </p>
<p>I don't want to offend or be seen as uncaring. I really am a caring person.</p>
<p>Oh and not to mention the civil wars, genocide, etc. raging on. There are still war criminals from Bosnia running around.</p>
<p>i know you are. at least you sound like one :)</p>
<p>well did you read this (part of my first post in this thread:</p>
<p>it requires twenty times more land and water to sustain a non vegetarian diet. this may seem insignifiant but it translates to millions of gallons of water and millions of hectares of land.</p>
<p>almost a fouth of all the agricultural land is used to grow food for cattle.</p>
<p>all this when millions of people die of lack of fresh water every year. and hundreds die in africa this very moment. die of starvation.</p>
<p>i dont understand how people can say,
"but veggie food tastes so bad...." and similar stuff when there are things IMPORTANT THAN TASTE.</p>
<p>I did. Yeah I guess they correlate. Well you seem well meaning. But I think a lot of people for animal welfare aren't. At least all the ones I know. Perhaps I have only met inconsiderate ones who only care for the animals and no one else, not even the plight of other humans. </p>
<p>My problem is I don't see vegetarianism going anywhere. I can't see that all too many people, enough to make a difference will give it up. I know parts of my family won't, and a lot of other people. They like hunting and they like eating meat. So I don't really see what there is to do. What suggestions do you have?</p>
<p>well that question had me stumped too.
its awfully hard convincing people to turn vegetarian.
the only person i managed to convince was my bf, he turned vegan to please me. now that we have broke up i dont think he will remain one:D</p>
<p>a<em>ravin</em>hurt, thank you for all the time you put into that set of data. Some of the info about leather I didn't even know about. I haven't bought leather or wool since I stopped eating meat, but it was mainly under the same Tolstoy philosophy I mentioned earlier, not because I thought it was cruel. But I see it most certainly is.</p>
<p>I hope a lot of people read this thread and consider eating less meat and buying less animal flesh for clothing. Finding non leather shoes is very, very tricky but it can be done. <a href="http://www.zappos.com%5B/url%5D">www.zappos.com</a> has a huge collection of "Vegetarian Shoes", a brand that basically copies Diesel and Ecko patterns and makes them in synthetic materials. Converse is another brand that makes most of their shoes out of canvas (cotton/poly), not animal products. So you can be cool and stuff with your Hi-tops and be saving the environment and promoting animal welfare, all at the same time. :)</p>
<p>i'd rather clothes made from animals. it's like a prize. just like fur coats. The animals serve no real purpose, you may as well put them to use. Sure, they may die a painful way and that's sad. But quit being so freaking touchy feely about everything. You don't have to buy meat that's been slaughtered in a bad way like I mentioned before. You can shop at Whole Foods, Halal places, etc.</p>
<p>Thank you for all the information, aravinhurt, I didn't know all of that. The only time I really purchase leather is for horseback riding gear - my normal everyday saddle is synthetic, but sythentic bridles and such aren't allowed in the show rings. </p>
<p>As for vegetarianism not going anywhere - if anything, I think it will go somewhere. I'm not saying it will be this worldwide phenomenum (oh, I spelled that wrong), but I do think there will be a little bit of change. I know a lot of people who are becoming vegetarian due to the information and such that is becoming so readily available. I know not everyone on CC will turn vegetarian, I'm not trying to change anyone on here, but I do think as people learn more, there will be some who will change, or at least decrease the meat in their diet. </p>
<p>I am proud to say I am a vegan. My rationale was this...a) I never really like the taste or texture of red meat, b) I have shellfish allergies which kind of puts most seafood out of the running due to food preparation, c) human beings were not designed to consume meat as we have flat, dull teeth like those of herbivores, d) bovine milk was also not technically intended for human consumption...we drink our mother's milk, just our mother's, not that of another species.</p>
<p>The latter two points are merely side-notes. But basically, I became a vegetarian when I was eleven, then switch to full vegan at fifteen. I really only ate chicken before becoming a vegetarian, and thereafter it was dairy products (cheese, yogurt and milk essentially) which inhibited moving into the vegan realm. I experimented without dairy when I was fifteen, and started just drinking soy milk and increasing protein from other sources (nuts, legumes, beans, etc). Once I cut dairy out of my diet I had ten times more energy, I just felt, it's difficult to describe, but, "cleaner" and more revved up, able to concentrate for longer periods, etc. </p>
<p>I really didn't do it for dietary reasons with the intent of losing weight, nor am I a full-fledged PETA advocate. I simply tried it, and the benefits were amazing in terms of how healthy I felt, my energy level and mood. Before, trust me, I was in great shape anyhow, working out two hours a day, studying away with school for hours...I was by no means in foul condition as an omnivore. However, veganism just gives you an extra kick. A lot of people find it strange, but it makes sense for me. Your eating options can be limited, especially at restaurants sometimes, but you also begin trying all kinds of new food too, greatly expanding your palate. The other plain and simple fact is this...it's VERY hard to switch back. That is, I have eaten dairy a couple times, and it just makes me sick to my stomach for at least a day now. Your system will just tune into the vegan thing and not want to go back.</p>
<p>dcfca, you are either (1) a very hardcore Christian, or (2) not. (That's just simple logic since everything is A or not A).</p>
<p>If (2), then what separates humans from animals? Humans have the ability to kill animals so we should be free to do so? What if I have the ability to kill you? Should I eat you? How is killing animals any different from cannibalism?</p>
<p>If (1), then obviously your beliefs are founded upon the principle that humans have Holy Spirit while animals do not. I'll give a more lengthy argument if you tell me if you are (1) or (2).</p>
<p>You're most welcome. I read your earlier post on semi-vegetarianism, not for ethical reasons (though you can couple the two) but for "feel good" health-wise reasons and I think we're on the same wavelength on it. I've disregarded much of immorality of killing animals debate because that's truly not my logic on becoming vegan, but you can become a proponent against animal cruelty too. I kind of winged it in terms of my becoming a vegan, but it's definitely a good idea to evaluate what your vegan "diet" (a term I reluctantly use, but lifestyle sounds silly) will entail. A lot of colleges have vegan menus and/or dining halls, and there's a good chance where there's a college...there'll be a Whole Foods/Trader Joe's type supermarket nearby you can explore. But totally try it, when you're ready, it may require some effort and perseverence, but the benefits outweigh any initial problems. You'll feel healthier, more energetic and obviously become more conscious of what you're eating (in a good way...not the dieting sense of "oh my god, need to lose weight now!" way). Additionally, I almost NEVER get strep throat, colds, ear infections, or the flu anymore since becoming vegan. I don't know if there's a connection or what, but if you're subconsciously eating healthier, your immune system is that much stronger. And I hardly ever get headaches anymore either.</p>
<p>dcfca
aint a very hardcore Christian. christianity teaches the qualities of kindness and non violence. he has neither. BTW It was obvious when he said that he doesnt eat pork for religious reasons that he is a muslim.
not that i have anything against them. besides, islam too preaches peace and kindness, something which doesnt penetrate his thick skull.</p>
<p>ReninDetroit
thanks a lot. i love it when someone appreciates me. :)</p>
<p>ABOUT 99% (YES, 99%) of the worlds ostriches live in battery farms. their feathers are plucked occasionally and then after they stop producing good quality feathers they are slaughtered.</p>
<p>Also each year, millions of kangaroos are slaughtered, for canned dog food.</p>
<p>A lot of what goes on in this world is shielded from us. the cruelty and pain that these animals witness at slaughterhouses can melt anyones heart. people like to ignore this fact just becoz it isnt happening right in front of their eyes. but ignoring the problem wont solve it. we have to face the problem ..</p>
<p>zogoto
which one??? i have splattered so many links....</p>
<p>the leather one works....go to page four...besides i have excerpts from the main article posted there, including the part on killing unborn calves for leather.</p>