<p>I am with nysmile; it seems that the OP’s D’s college process has been bumpy and indecisive. </p>
<p>I would send in the W&M deposit and call Wes to let them know that you are a full freight payer. If money does not get your D off their waitlist, then there really is nothing else to be done for Fall 2009. If, by November, she still remembers wanting to go to Wes, then re-apply for Fall 2010. </p>
<p>I find that when I am busy trying to make things perfect for my child, she usually figures out a sensible course of action.</p>
<p>I am fascinated by the regional differences here. W&M and Wesleyan are pretty much equidistant from where I live. As I said, Wesleyan has a very high profile in my neighborhood. Not all the students who go there from here are at the tippy-top of the pyramid, but all of them are smart, engaged, interesting kids. And some of them ARE at the tippy-top and choose Wesleyan over more widely known colleges, including (gasp!) the Holy of Holies, because they really like it. W&M’s profile here is so low you couldn’t trip on it if you tried. I know of exactly 0 students who have ever applied there. Meanwhile, gadad (and others) are saying that W&M has more prestige than Wesleyan. I’ll take their word for it that it’s true where they live. It sure isn’t true here. I’m not certain people even know what W&M is, much less that it means anything.</p>
<p>I don’t really agree that students start looking for research over the summer before Freshman year. Professors are unlikely to give you a lab position when you haven’t even taken a course. Most ambitious students (at least where I went to school) started doing research spring semester of Freshman year. The department even recommended that we do not do research our first semester. I knew of maybe 1 or 2 students who started doing some lab work first semester, but both had enough AP credits to take more advanced courses and graduate at least a year early.</p>
<p>I you get admitted off the waitlist, I think they will give you at least a week to make a decision. It’s a reasonable amount of time to visit the school.</p>
<p>W&M’s stature is huge in the South (DC and southward) where it has near-Ivy status, well earned by virtue of its historic role as one of the very first colleges in the Americas and the cradle of many of the Founding Fathers. Not so much in the Northeast where it’s seen as a very good regional public institution. </p>
<p>Wesleyan, by contrast, is very highly regarded in the Northeast where its reputation exceeds W&M’s by a mile; but not so much elsewhere in the country where it’s largely unknown except to academic elites and top-tier LAC alums. So I think some of the talking past each other that’s been going on here is just a function of these sharply divergent regional perspectives.</p>
<p>I agree with bclintonk’s excellent analysis. If she’s planning to live in the south, maybe W & M. If she pines for NYC or Boston, pick Wesleyan. If she sees herself working for a bank in Denver it’s not going to matter.</p>
<p>Regarding the money, we had braced ourselves to pay full freight at the highest priced schools. So we have the money. That does not mean we should spend the money. If her choices were the Wes WL vs. a school that was a poor fit, then I’d encourage a full push to get into Wes. But W&M isn’t a poor fit, nor is it a bad school. So on what basis does it make sense to spend the money? </p>
<p>Regarding the relative prestige of Wes and W&M, really, we’re talking about differences in reputation so small that they are not viewable with the naked eye. If she goes to either and does well, all will be well.</p>
<p>I do worry that Wes will be tougher academically than W&M, though. I think any “Big Fish, Small Pond” analysis favors W&M, but only a little.</p>
<p>:sigh: I guess we won’t visit and I will do nothing/say nothing. If D has enough get-up-and-go to talk her way in, she’ll have to do it on her own. If she does, then we will pay for it, I guess. I suppose the real question is whether we would have allowed her to go to Wes over w&M had she been admitted outright. The answer is probably and reluctantly yes.</p>
<p>Cindy- I think you are now at one of those impasses that parents dread. Kids who work hard and are engaged in their colleges tend to find a good path for themselves. I think sitting back and deciding that if your D really wants Wes she’ll figure out a way to haul herself into the admissions office and plead her case is a good strategy. Or deciding that she’ll try W&M before deciding that she hates it is a good idea. Or deciding that she loves W&M and was a lunatic for thinking otherwise. Or whatever. Bottom line is that you can’t make her love her college-- but she can make herself bloom wherever she gets planted.</p>
<p>I think she’ll be fine and you’ll be fine- although you may get a few more motherly gray hairs before this plays itself out. Hugs.</p>
<p>JHS we have similar experience: 7 applicants to W&M, 40 to Wesleyan. Average SAT for accepted students at Wesleyan is 200 points higher. The kids I know who went to Wesleyan, are really smart and interesting, but not always the top students gradewise, though still in the top 10% of the class. The two I know best are pretty serious about music.</p>
<p>FWIW - In the South, when you mention “Wesleyan” people tend to think of a women’s college in Macon with 600 students and median SATs between 1000 and 1100 on the 1600 scale. I’d be very impressed by a Wesleyan (CT) degree, but I’m unusually college-centered.</p>
<p>Cindy - your daughter must move on. Treat the waitlist as a no. W & M wants her - now. </p>
<p>The wait list situations that make sense to me are with certain professional schools. The difference between, by way of example, a 50th ranked law school and one in the top tier (top 14) is significant in terms of career opportunities. I encouraged a young person in that situation to pursue the wait list at Penn vigorously, and it worked out for him (notwithstanding the huge inconvenience of finding housing late, etc.). </p>
<p>But there’s no discernible difference in academic quality between the two schools your daughter is looking at. </p>
<p>Word to the wise about WM - I have a lot of respect for them for holding the line on grade inflation - they really, truly do - but be warned that it is a school that demands a great deal of effort and an attitude that one must step up their game in terms of focus and responsibility to get good grades. WM is a challenging place, more than usual. And I know of a few kids who opt for UVa over WM merely because of the lack of grade inflation at WM - they just don’t want to deal with it. </p>
<p>I am from Northern Virginia and I cannot tell you how many bright kids (even ones from the magnet school here who are arguably prepared better than most in the nation) are surprised at WM’s rigor. But this is a great thing is approached properly. Do well at WM and one is very well prepared for the future.</p>
<p>cindy: What I was trying to say before is that in the northeast, or at least in professional offices along the Eastern Seaboard north of Wilmington, there is an enormous reputational difference between Wesleyan and William & Mary. I’m not saying that it’s right or justified, only that it’s there and can be viewed (easily) with the naked eye. And I think gadad and others have been saying that in the southeast William & Mary is highly regarded and seen as superior to Wesleyan. Honestly, I wouldn’t know that but for CC.</p>
<p>And I’m just seconding JHS. It’s not that students are totally unaware of the public universities in VA - 24 applied to UVA and a handful to other VA publics. The really popular OOS publics are the usual suspects - the Big Ten schools, U Mass, Vermont, the NJ schools.</p>
<p>Fascinating discussion about regional differences in reputation. I wonder if anyone has studied this systematically and if so has it been published anywhere? </p>
<p>Looks like if OP’s D wants to end up working/marrying in the South she should go to W&M, and if she wants to move North she should try to aim for Wes.</p>
<p>My advice to OP: I think it is a very bad idea to attend a school that you have not visited while in session. If it were me I would call up the Weslyan adcom, explain the problem, and give THEM a deadline by which they have to either accept her or she would withdraw from the waitlist.</p>
<p>The “Which is better?” regional analysis did occur to me, but it doesn’t feel like it is all that relevant. On account of how she hasn’t been admitted to Wes yet. They’re both good liberal arts schools. I doubt her job prospects or ability to get into grad school would be markedly different in one versus the other, provided she does well. She doesn’t know what she wants to have for breakfast tomorrow, so I feel certain she doesn’t know whether she wants to reside in the South or Northeast.</p>
<p>It’s hard. Even if Wes is slightly better, that will come at a significant cost ($60,000). </p>
<p>Cindy - I am one for always go for the “best school” possible, even if it means paying more. In your case with your daughter, she doesn’t know what’s “best” for her yet. Most of her reasons for wanting to go Wes are not very focused (or relevant). Because of that, I am not sure if I would be too willing to part with 60,000. </p>
<p>What if you have a chat with her about splitting the cost with you if she should get into Wes? It may 1) inspire her to do more research about Wes (maybe push you take her on a visit), 2) give her a good reason to forget about Wes.</p>
<p>I’m surprised. When I toured W&M with my daughter (I am a native Virginian and we were living in Texas at the time), it seemed that everyone else in our tour group was from New Jersey or Pennsylvania. </p>
<p>Small sample, granted, but I think W&M gets a lot of OOS students from the North, even if not from JHS’s area. </p>
<p>Can’t speak for its reputation in the North, just as I know nothing about Wesleyan.</p>
<p>I graduated from Williams, and lived on the east coast, the midwest, and west coast. The only employer in 35 years who thought he knew what Williams was thought it was William and Mary, and reminisced about his trip to Williamsburg. I did not attempt to disabuse him of the idea.</p>
<p>If you live in Ohio, they’ll think you mean Ohio Wesleyan (fine school!) or in Illinois, Illinois Wesleyan. In the south, as noted above. Some folks might ask why she went to a religious school.</p>
<p>“cindy: What I was trying to say before is that in the northeast, or at least in professional offices along the Eastern Seaboard north of Wilmington, there is an enormous reputational difference between Wesleyan and William & Mary.”</p>
<p>Interesting … FWIW I grew up in Philly (where you are now, JHS) and always had extremely favorable awareness of / impressions of W&M.</p>
<p>It would be great if someone ever did a regional quantitative breakout of school reputations, because I agree, we all talk past one another because of the areas in which we were raised and/or live currently. As well, reputation among “the general masses,” among academics, and among more educated / elite people. And then people can decide which ones they care about :-)</p>