Thoughts, After Reading All

College Majors Music Major
1

I just finished reading through any articles that had catchy titles in the 250 pages of Music Major threads. One of the fun parts, reading from newest to oldest was watching very informed members (I think of musicprnt, for example) go back in time when they were newer to the topics. There are some common themes through the years, such as trying to dispense with most/all non-music activities, subject to good grades being able to earn scholarships that makes attendance financially possible. Another theme seems to drift over time; the selection of the primary instructor is on one hand of paramount importance; whereas, on the other hand, the instructor’s potential to disappear from the scene and the other important consideration - the fellow students’ networking base - make choosing exactly the perfect instructor seem less critical. So a reader could get a different feeling depending on which year is read.

There is one thing that caught my attention. My S plays an unrelated instrument, aside from the bass that he hopes to make a living with. For that instrument, there is a specialty website where you can post videos of your performance and get very meaningful critique from the viewers. We received very accurate feedback about where S stood in the field and used some of those ideas to seek out correction. I think the CC point of view would be that competitions and placements in audition-based camps and professional assessment would reveal this kind of information. The nice thing about those video assessments is improvements are easily reassessed as they occur. You could also see many opinions and get a feel for the median opinion.

I am not only lightly-informed, but also a somewhat sensitive/touchy/aloof person, which may explain the following. I get feeling that some new forum members, through the years, are trying to lock on to where they belong musically or how to find their level and pursue it, yet after all is discussed, I come away with the feeling that if you haven’t already been studying since early youth, performing in a youth orchestra in an upper chair, and aiming for a highly esteemed college, there is not much to talk about. This varies by instrument, but is often found with piano and violin and less with voice. I am even now imagining that the second paragraph I have posted here may, rather than be conversational, would draw the question of why is he playing an instrument that is not related to his main goal, to which I would have a sub-optimal answer. What do you think, maybe I wrongly perceive? I think late-comers or late-bloomers may have a harder time being guided. I think it makes sense that high levels of desired achievement requires work/talent/etc and not just warm fuzzy feelings and wishes or mis-steps. This is a good forum, and I hope to report relevant news or observations as S’ path unfolds.

2

This makes sense in that violinists and pianists tend to start younger, whereas vocalists are often just beginning their studies in their late teens. Little violas sound terrible, thanks to the laws of physics, so it’s pretty common for violinists to pick up viola when they’re full grown. Some switch completely; others become ambidextrous; still others keep viola in their back pocket (metaphorically) for chamber music or other fun.

Other instruments (e.g., winds, bass) are also not appropriate for smaller bodies, so these musicians naturally get a late start. But I can rattle off names of peers of my daughter who got late starts in string instruments and did fine: a cellist who started at 11 in public school and was accepted to Curtis at 18; a violinist who started at 11 and was accepted to San Francisco Conservatory. (Both worked very hard.)

A secondary instrument is a great idea. One of my daughters played viola at a fairly high level in high school but also became a little obsessed with trumpet (of all things-- why, we wondered?) and studied that for a while, too. I know many high level players who are fairly proficient in other instruments.

3

I completely agree. My d who’s a vocalist started late…even for a vocalist. Although she had been “singing” for 6 years prior, she started learning 4 languages and a completely style of singing in her junior year…just in time for prescreens and auditions. Yeah!!! So where does she fit in? What guidance applies to her? Obviously she doesn’t have the polish and technique that some practicing for years has. Where does she apply? We found that the tippy top groups didn’t want unpolished potential…but that next tier was willing to take a chance. It’s tough because a lot of the posts here are very instrument specific. And as u mentioned are geared to virtual proteges.

The other thing about this forum is the diversity within a music major. What applies to a cellist may not be the same as a composer…and I don’t even know what the difference would be. But it’s diametrically different than a classical vocalist, jazz performer, or music therapy major.

I’m gladly admit that i am musically illiterate, but follow me on the mt group and I have gads of insight. This group has been a godsend to my d and i and I wish to pay it forward. So anyone who is accepted to hartt for vp or who was a mt performer now turned vp…my d is at your disposal…she knows I speak on her behalf and is a willing participant:)

Ps she will be attending fava in austria this summer and will be able to offer insight on that after august.

4

I have a daughter who’s an actor so I used to read the MT and Theater Major boards, but I found them very stressful. The tone here in music is kinder and more helpful, in general (at least in my experience.)

5

@glassharmonica…you are right…the mt forum is at times more intense. The music forum is more zen like.

6

Thanks for sharing. I was a little nervous about my post being taken in a bad light either due to a mistaken idea or a poor word choice, but it helped me to start with a clear mind which is now de-stressed. I will post more later (almost time for work) about what S has been doing and what he is aiming for, but in summary, he aims for performance in jazz bass. Thanks again.

7

I think the reason it seems more difficult to give latecomers good guidance is because in truth there aren’t many objective markers from afar to indicate what kind of musical progress they’ve made to date, especially compared to students with whom they might be auditioning at a given school. Many of the top music schools will generally tell hopefuls that successful applicants will usually have achieved regional or national distinction, had a private teacher, etc.

I think from a posting standpoint, it easier to assume that a student with a deep background is somewhere in the ballpark in terms of technical prowess and musicality to be competitive at many of the top programs. Its just much harder to assume that with a less experienced student.

Sometimes new posters to the music forum have the notion that music school is where you go to learn music :wink: In actual fact, at the top schools, its more akin to a professional school, where you go to hone your already-robust study of music to a professional level. The distinction seems slight, but it’s not.

I find this notion especially prevalent among young seekers of music engineering/technology/production. The school my son attended (Michigan) effectively weeds out the more casual of this type in its portfolio requirements that include elements as diverse as a multi-instrument stereo recording mix and electronic instrumentation of a Bach fugue :wink: Those who apply quickly realize that they need to already be somewhat proficient at mixing and in addition need to know how to read music.

But for performance, there’s really only the audition to identify the actual level of play. Its always possible for a late-born talent to be so great, so natural, as to trump more experienced musicians in the final analysis. So I think fellow posters are reluctant to discourage anyone, but are also challenged as to how to give meaningful advice. The odds generally of getting into any one of the top programs are akin to the acceptance level at an Ivy, but the metrics are even more subtle.

Which is why many of us find ourselves saying “what does your private teacher say.” :wink:

8

This is a good point, well-articulated. (I’m not saying that GoForth is one of those mentioned by @kmcmom13–far from it.) But we do get lost souls who suddenly decide to study music performance at a college level at 17 or 18. There are also well-prepared players who, for whatever reason, have difficulty finding their way in music higher education. There are so many different scenarios. This forum is almost always extremely supportive. Every once in a while we get a ■■■■■ or someone who is bitterly negative about a particular program, but in general this is a safe and helpful environment.

9

Hi GoForth.

Your son, and mine, (HS junior), have much in common. My son is an accomplished euphonium player, (also plays tuba and trombone), but picked up double bass between his freshman and sophomore year. He was hooked. He intends to pursue bass, but continues to play low brass, attend festivals on euphonium, and participate in choir, even though it cuts into his bass practice time. I had the same concerns you seem to have after reading this forum; with his late start on bass, maybe he should re-think the time commitment given to his other musical interests. Maybe it was just too late and he’d need a gap year.

Because of these concerns, I arranged evaluations for S from some top jazz bass professors/performers in the NYC area, and that was most reassuring and encouraging. He is on a good trajectory for auditions next year. After your son has had some time to get comfortable with the instrument, I would encourage you to arrange an evaluation as well. If your location is an issue, at least one of the profs we went to does skype consultations. No one discouraged him from pursuing his other musical interests.

To paraphrase what one told him…everything he learns musically has value and can be drawn upon as a bassist. Then to drive that point home, S had a regional jazz audition a couple of weeks later, and the judge asked if he was a vocalist-and said he can usually tell by their soloing if someone has choral training. S got the spot. I would think your son’s experience as a percussionist would be extremely valuable in fulfilling his role as the bassist in a jazz ensemble.

All that said, we have no idea if S’s path is the “right” one to land at a good conservatory. But it is the right path for him as a person and a musician right now, and we have had no direct feedback that would discourage that path. Best of luck to you both…I’m looking forward to hearing more about your journey!

10

My son is also a jazz bassist. He started playing electric bass when he was 12. He had private lessons on that through his high school years. He picked up the upright as part of his jazz classes in high school, and really started playing it in his sophmore year. He didn’t get a private teacher for upright until his junior year. He did the Berklee 5 week between Junior and senior year. He got accepted everywhere he auditioned, and ended up at Hartt.

He never picked up a second instrument, but he wishes he had started playing piano earlier. He is required to take keyboard classes at school, and says that it helps with his musicality and transcribing. So if your kid’s second instrument is piano, tell him to have at it.

11

That’s a good point: most conservatories require keyboard proficiency.

12

“Sometimes new posters to the music forum have the notion that music school is where you go to learn music :wink: In actual fact, at the top schools, its more akin to a professional school, where you go to hone your already-robust study of music to a professional level. The distinction seems slight, but it’s not.”

Kmcmom, well articulated and right spot on. There are some students who as teenagers make the leap into being professional (for example, violin soloists), and with them the distinction may not be so broad, but they are the rarity IMO. Even for kids who go to the advanced pre college programs, like Juilliard, CIM and so forth, where they in effect simulate the music school environment in a day (lessons, chamber, orchestra, music theory, ear training), it isn’t the same thing, because when you get to music school the level jumps up, and for kids who have studied with a good private teacher it is a lot more of a jump IME.

@‌ goforth-

The reason people’s posts change is that the musical journey or whatever you call it is just that, as time goes the student/parents see much more, experience more, and their views change, it is kind of natural. There is nothing set in stone about the music process, the journey, and it seems like every day something new comes up, that makes you think. You start out thinking the audition process must have some sort of objective basis to it, that there is some mystical formula that determines who gets in, then you start seeing that it is a very subjective process, where conventional wisdom may have truth to it, but there are other things, too, and what it comes down to for a particular program may be what ‘edges’ a student has, whether it is having exposure to a teacher, playing in a certain style, etc…kid can be a technical virtuoso, and get rejected because none of the teachers wanted to work with them, so forth… my own perceptions changed, as I listened to people on here, as I talked to professional musicians my son came across and as his own journey advanced; some of the things I thought true weren’t I now believe, some things have been strengthened, in some ways I am also a lot more cynical about the music schools and such then I was when I started.

The key thing as Glassharmonica and others have said is that there is no one indicator of how good a student is, every instrument is different, every student is different, every teacher is different, every music school is different, and in the end, whether a student actually achieves their dream and makes it, is the sum of a lot of variables, known and unknown. There are kids on violin who have worked hard (or been pushed), achieve technical mastery, get into the great schools, win the big competitions, and never do much in music, there are kids who start late, get into music school, and then find a path to their dreams. On piano and violin, there is a very different culture, partly because students can study early, but also because these are solo instruments which for whatever reasons have been seen as something of note in some countries in Asia, and it has in many ways changed the game, because the kids start early and are driven to intense practice at an early age, and this has driven the competition level on those instruments and the technical ability of those playing to incredible levels, and if you want to get into those instruments (and I am talking classical music here), and get into competitive programs and such, that is a reality, whereas it is a different world with orchestral instruments, both because you cannot play them that young, and because they aren’t as popular (and this is changing, the levels on all instruments have shot up there , the solo instruments simply were at the forefront).

People try to be kind, it would be kind of ridiculous to be mean about someone striving to do something they want to, when (hopefully) all of us on here are trying to help our own kids on their own, possibly Quixotic quest. On the other hand, there is reality, too, and it is why people ask what someone’s goal is. If someone starts the violin at 16 and says they want to get into a top music program, then want to get into a major orchestra, it is like a kid at 16 taking up ballet dancing and wanting to make it into a major ballet company, it is just as next to impossible, there are both physical reasons, and simply being too far behind, no matter how hard they work, to do that. On the other hand if the kid picked up a violin at 16 and wanted to be a jazz violinist or a fiddler or a violinist in a rock band, that very well may be possible, because those forms are very different than classical (note, I am not saying they are ‘easy’, they require incredibly hard work, perseverence and all the things it takes in classical music, they just don’t have the gatekeepers classical does, while kids study jazz in music programs, there also are jazz musicians who don’t go that route, and quite frankly classical music training and the whole thing around it has severe negatives IMO). And the key thing, as others have pointed out, is that studying music is not necessarily the end goal, that going for it and ‘not making it’ (whatever that means) is not the end of the world, but rather the beginning, and music is still going to be key in that next thing happening, for a variety of reasons.

13

I want to add that I’m very impressed you read this whole forum–!!

14

@indeestudios, I was nodding my head as I read your comments, especially the ending regarding the “right” path. I’ve really enjoyed the variety of my son’s musical interests and I wholeheartedly agree that his choral training etc have helped hin in so many ways, including college auditions. I’ve also observed that many musicians come to jazz a little later. I will say that enrolling my son in a conservatory jazz prep program on Saturdays was huge - I wish we’d done it sooner! My son was really eager to attend, and has loved every minute of it. It clarified some of his goals too.

15

@glassharmonica - out of the 250 reachable pages of Music Major, I probably found 4 to 8 threads per page that caught my attention, then I read all the posts in each thread. It took many days at hours per day. The reason I did it is that I wanted to get a sense of what is the average opinion and what are the most extreme opinions on a few topics, and I didn’t want to directly re-hash anything that I could find already answered regularly with the same opinions and conclusions.

@kmcmom13 - as your first reply moved from paragraph 1 to paragraph 3, at first I anticipated you were going to reinforce the idea that the highest level of study, focus and exclusion of distractions is the only way to go, since you were mentioning “top schools” in paragraph 1. I did not realize, even after my forum reading, that students would not pursue the study of music before college, and that would be very hard to offer advice to.

@indeestudios and @electricbassmom - you have mentioned something that seemed to me to be less represented in my readings - a kind of approach (is there a name for it?) that can appear to meander, yet add value at each turn.

@musicprnt - I have read many of your posts, for which I thank you. You mention above that people ask what someone’s goal is, and I will cover that very point more in a subsequent post in this thread. I notice in your reply that you also mention “top music program”, and I often see folks mentioning “top” a lot in the many threads I have read. I have read about those who are aiming and preparing (and at) top programs, and I read about how being from a top program may not lead to “success”. The stories that I do not see are stories where someone prepared and went to a medium program and then went on to excel. Maybe those stories unfold at times that are beyond the focus of College Confidential. Maybe we are less familiar with medium programs that would be known to people from all around the country, and the top ones are easy to discuss with ease.

Thanks to all the repliers! I am going to start another post below that explain where we are at and what we are thinking. I have made a couple posts before with some facts, but I am going to be more comprehensive here.

16

I hadn’t given a full accounting of S’ past work. The reason for that is that I did not want to have a long list of facts that made it seem like I was trying to tally up points looking for a confirmation that S is wonderful student. But, now that I see concern that some new folks might not have any musical preparations in place, I’ll be more thorough. So, the following are just dry, raw facts that can be used in consideration of future discussion.

Chronology:
S is a high school sophomore and is almost 16 years old. He is relatively tall and strong. Mild-mannered.
S began piano at age 3 in private lessons, but it was typical kid-learning-piano casual scenario for a couple years.
S played trumpet in middle school, but added percussion in his last year.
S began taking drum set and electric bass from a local teacher before high school, but after a year, the teacher said he had taught all he could.
As high school approaches, a private instructor for electric jazz bass is hired from the jazz bass masters program at a nearby college.
S enters the high school drum line as a freshman on bass drum.
The high school is small-town, 200 students in class.
The high school music department is OK for keeping students entertained.
S plays percussion in a county-wide honor band.
Summer between freshman and sophomore, S hears about DCI (drum corps international).
S does a week-long summer jazz camp on electric bass.
S realized that concert band / orchestra is not his genre and decides not to pursue those competitions.
S finds a rudimental drum instructor.
Sophomore year, S marches tenor drums at high school.
S takes AP music theory class at high school.
S starts voice lesson that continue even now.
Voice studio teacher inquires about hiring S to teach an instrument and says S is the fastest sight singer she has met.
A series of DCI auditions start, S learns how far behind he is, drops rudimental instructor and picks up a better one.
Not fully finalized, but S will probably march snare drum in DCI this summer between sophomore and junior year.
Recently, S realizes that bass will be his calling more than percussion. Drops fantastic percussion instruction.
Jazz bass teacher is told about goals.
Jazz teacher adds upright bass lessons and refers S to classical bass professor from same college.
Classical professor says S has a good ear.
Jazz teacher says in 1 year, S’ upright jazz skills will be better than half of current freshmen at his college.
We started talking about college and current career/life goals.
Class rank is 1/200.
UW GPA is 3.97. Weighted is higher.
Coursework is standard college-prep with lots of honors or AP.
These classes do not tax S’ time any more than a standard class, and even they are slightly boring.

Future Estimations:
This summer 2015 will probably include DCI and a 1-week jazz camp.
Marching band percussion at high school will probably continue throughout.
DCI will probably be dropped for 2016
Summer of 2016 will aim for upright jazz workshop at UNT.
Will seek out other meaningful activity… .

Longer-term Idea:
Attend UNT for BM.
Avoid debt to allow freedom and focus.
Find music work.
Work hard.
Live lean.
Figure out how to make it all work.

17

Wow - lots of thought there and solid planning and support for your son. But one thing I would caution about instantly - do not focus on only one program for college. There are many great ones out there for jazz bass, and your son will also change between then and now. UNT, while good, is not the only good one. And every jazz department has a prevailing aesthetic. You won’t know for awhile yet where your son’s passions will lead him. He sounds like a great kid. With also a need for great academics. So you definitely want to keep in mind schools like Michigan, Northwestern, NYU, New School, USC, Eastman/Rochester, NEC/Tufts where he could also feed the other part of his soul beyond pure music.
It sounds like, with your support, your son will have many options when it comes time to choose a college.

18

Thanks @SpiritManager - I have also read many of your past posts. You have drawn out one of my farther-in-the-future questions. In the jazz world, what is a top program?

OK. So, just this month I am working on a project at work where, oddly enough, these guys have strong music backgrounds. They know the local college I mentioned above and think it is pretty good. I mentioned my son might like UNT. One guy is like “well, good luck getting in there.” Another guy is like “Why not aim high.” Given they and I really don’t know each other, I was surprised how specific and speedy there reaction was. UNT is the strawman that S and I use. We will aim for 6 or so auditions as the time comes closer. I do like the cost aspect of UNT. Others could end up being good, too.

19

I’d add other school specific jazz camps to get to know the school atmosphere, teacher and other faculty. You’d be surprised. The “best” school isn’t always the best for your kid.

20

I forgot a few details.
S also teaches bass and/or snare lessons. Only to a couple of students here at home. But for hire.
S plays bass at a church that we are not members of.
Don’t ask about the rock bands that fizzle out.
S is also very organized and takes notes about what to practice on. Sometimes his practices are short if he feels he accomplished what he planned to do.

I notice an absence of “Regional Jazz Combos” or “Berklee 5-week Camp” type of items in the resume. I haven’t located anything like a Regional Jazz Combo yet.