I agree there is a strong argument about US taxpayers footing the bill. I am also pulled the other direction to learn the actual failure mechanisms versus the theoretical ones. I had a college professor who consulted with the FAA. His stories of identifying things like fatigue failure on plane crashes were fascinating science.
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As noted above, Canada is conducting an investigation. I wouldn’t be surprised if the US also announces a formal investigation.
There are some posts above that say this. A few articles not posted above suggest it could become a criminal investigation.
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The materials and components worked for 3 trips to the Titanic. So the more nuanced question is why did one or more of them fail on the 4th trip? And which component or material failed? Was it actually the carbon fiber that cycled through too much pressure and temperature stress? Or the interfaces between the carbon fiber and other materials? Or a failure at the porthole? Or was it related to the thrusters or some other electrical or mechanical component?
The US, and presumably other governments, went to great lengths to find the Titan. I just found this on the Titan’s Wikipedia page. Apparently, New York Oceanic Control (which gives clearances to aircraft to cross the North Atlantic and assign routes over the ocean) sent this message to an overflying El Al commercial aircraft:
We won’t know all of those answers for a while.
And maybe never. A thorough Failure Analysis would need a large amount of the debris to be recovered. They would also have to have access to the company’s maintenance and inspection records, which assumes they thoroughly maintained it. AND documented that!
all materials will eventually fail with repeated stressors. That is why airplanes for expample, have an aggressive maintenance plan which replaces stuff before they fail. (Ditto reusable rocket parts.)
But with regards to Titan, the Canadian government could just ask for the blueprints and turn them over to a engineering lab (or Uni) to start testing carbon fiber and titanium and in particular, the methods used to bond them together under pressure. Don’t need to spend millions to pull up the wreckage.
Yes, the wreckage would likely yield more accurate answers, but metalurgists could get really close in a lab.
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Yes, of course. And that is the whole point of regulations and certifications.
Regarding recreating Titan materials in the lab, sure. But there is just no substitute for doing the F/A on the actual failed materials. To identify the exact failure point, and then the exact failure mode, is science gold.
eta: A small point of correction. Carbon fiber is not a metal. So this is more than metallurgy.
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Sure, but why should the US taxpayer pay for that science research gold unless the military finds it valuable? (And they just may for super secret sub work they are doing.)
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Total speculation here, but if there is a possible criminal investigation (as a few articles have suggested), there would need to be more evidence than just blueprints/schematics.
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The US is going to lead the Titan investigation, and there is a reference here to possible criminal referrals:
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I haven’t read the whole thread so maybe it’s been discussed, but I never understood the use of carbon fiber for the sub. It’s strength comes when it’s stretched, as happens in an airplane fuselage when the air pressure inside the fuselage is greater than it is outside, and the fuselage wants to bulge out. The carbon fiber acts like a strong net that prevents the fuselage from bulging.
On the other hand, the sub needed to be protected against compression, and I can’t figure out how carbon fiber can be used to prevent that. It almost seems like the designer of the sub wanted to use carbon fiber only because it’s trendy to say you’re using carbon fiber.
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Canadians are investigating:
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And it was MUCH cheaper. Remember that the Titan had an odd shape for a deep-sea vessel. Apparently, many of them are spherical, so that the pressure is evenly divided around the sphere. However, Titan was used for as a vehicle for-profit, so they needed multiple passengers. Accordingly, it was more a cylinder, with the pressure NOT evenly spread out.
Apparently, a steel vessel to hold five souls would have been prohibitively expensive. Steel is a primary material for deep-sea vessels, not carbon composites.
And, while I am far from a scientist, I totally agree with you: a carbon-composite fuselage works for an airplane, but I don’t think it could work for a vessel subject to multiples of 100s of atmospheres.
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But that is a completely different situation. That is commercial airliners, flying under the supervision of the FAA, paying US taxes. This was a ballsy rich dreamer, who deliberately evaded any safety supervision and deliberately evaded US taxes; in fact, adamantly avoided any US connection whatsoever for Oceangate. He sank a tin can that wasn’t approved for this use. The components he used specifically stated that they couldn’t withstand pressure below a certain depth, and he sank the components to triple that limit, repeatedly.
WHY would we pay for an expensive salvage operation? There is no gain for the US taxpayer. In fact, if we’re talking criminal charges, the chief perpetrator is dead, and who says that the US has any jurisdiction? Again, why should OUR criminal or civil justice system pay for the lawsuits or the criminal cases? The only thing we should be doing is confiscating any of Oceangate’s assets to pay for the rescue operation, and then go after the estates of the 5 persons who put themselves at such risk, necessitating the expensive rescue operation. Believe me, the billionaires can afford it.
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I’m sure this is in the plans.
Regarding criminal investigation, it wouldn’t take much to sabotage a carbon fiber hull.
I’m going to preface this with that I generally agree with you. The wealthy people who boarded the Titan assumed the risk. Why should the US tax payers (or French or Canadian or whomever) be on the hook for the rescue and recovery efforts?
I have a family member who was on Ballard"s team at Wood’s Hole back in the 80’s when they discovered the wreck of Titanic.For the record, he called what happened from the beginning - that the Titan imploded. He speculated that Ocean Gate had done inadequate testing, and that the integrity of the structure was compromised with each successive dive that Titan took. He likened it to crushing an egg in your hands.
However, my relative feels very strongly that our government needs to be involved in the recovery to understand exactly what caused this tragedy and to become involved and regulate these types of excursions in the future.He feels that ocean exploration should and will eventually become accessible to the masses. In this case a forensic investigation could lead to regulations much like the FAA has over air travel.
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Why would the US be able to regulate in international waters? Why wouldnt future adventurers just avoid a US nexus and continue on their trips? No need for the ships to dock at any US port.
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A better question is, How could the US regulate the international high seas? (Hint: it can’t)
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I suppose it may require international treaties and cooperation much like air travel does
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