<p>I’ve read both articles. I frequently read those I don’t agree with. I think
It’s time for George Will to retire. I do not find his thoughts @deeper than anything He bores me. He, and those like him, represent why nobody buys the papers anymore. On conservative issues, the only really great thinker is Krauthammer. But if Krauthammer wrote the tripe Will just wrote? I’d take that back. </p>
<p>Regarding the concept of victimhood status: rape is such an awful crime and the oppression of women is still an unfortunate aspect of human history and present day reality, that people understandably become outraged when they think anyone is blaming the victim or implying she was somehow responsible. But for the sake of the protection of all citizens in a free society, rape victims who accuse their perpetrators cannot be excused from having to provide a coherent account that stands up to scrutiny. If there is an absence of concrete evidence of the crime or witnesses to it and all we have is the rape victim’s story, then she also cannot be excused from standing up under a character examination. It’s regrettable, but not all rape is prosecutable just as not all other crimes are prosecutable. The accuser’s character IS relevant and must be considered in rape cases just as it is in other criminal cases. If we want rape to be prosecuted like other crimes, then we can’t refuse to allow the accuser’s character, psychological stability, and physical state (eg. level of impairment from drug and alcohol use) to be evaluated. </p>
<p>Good job awcntdb expressing what I think George Will was trying to say about protected classes. To protect classes (that perhaps should not be protected) can lead to discrimination, the very reason the “class” was protected to begin with. A Catch-22 indeed and the notion that women need to be a protected class has bothered me from the very beginning which is separate from my thoughts about rape or sexual harassment and probably why the George Will article didn’t inflame my senses…however I do think he did a horrible job laying out his argument.</p>
<p>Actually, everything else aside, if all rapes were reported, since the same criminals would be named repeatedly, it would cut down on a lot of the need for that scrutiny. Will criticizes women for reporting rapes, which is exactly what protected rapists for years. Will and those like him are mostly complaining that their implicit protection is eroding, but since they grew up with it, they assume it was " the right way". It wasn’t </p>
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Thank you, awcntdb. Yes, I do need to change things, but looking back on how I wrote that sentence it sounds as if I’m an alcoholic. I promise this is not the case! 
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<p>My take on parties in college are different. I mean…it sounds as if the “smart” kid leaves the party because the party isn’t a “good thing”. But the kids who stay at the parties and enjoy themselves aren’t bad, either? There is such thing as staying strong, knowing your limit, partying “smart”? Do some parents recognize this? My mom would tell me to enjoy myself (because kids will) but keep my eyes open, to stay with people who genuinely have your best interest in mind, and be able to sober up if things get out of control. </p>
<p>Looking back, I’ve only had one experience that could’ve went very, very wrong, but I was out of the country and not with people who, like my mom listed, have my best interest in mind, and I didn’t keep my eyes open and I was far beyond the point of being able to sober up. </p>
<p>I feel you’re able to still enjoy yourself, but of course you can’t through your brains out when you enter the party. You have to stay smart. </p>
<p>He’s no William F Buckley that is for sure. If that is what he was saying I missed it. It’s perplexing indeed for someone like me who probably ideologically lines up with conservative liberalism.</p>
<p>Getting a conviction with the police is difficult too in acquaintance rape because often the evidence is not strong enough and, unfortunately, the woman’s actions are taken into account (even though this should not be be done it is). Prosecutors will not take cases that may lead to a loss in court, because that impacts their conviction record.</p>
<p>Why don’t women report? According to the study the Time article is based on, it is for many reasons but two of the more common ones were not being believed and not thinking what happened was rape or a crime. The women seem to think that either it wasn’t rape because they knew the person or did not really protest, or (in some cases) it was a different sort of sexual encounter that they didn’t necessarily want but didn’t equate to rape. </p>
<p>One thing that came out in some of the studies is the extent to which kids buy into the perception that drinking to excess and hooking up is part of the college experience and that girls are required to “go along” which is supposed to be fun. It bothers me that girls, in high school and college, think that they are being free in their sexuality but often are doing things that essentially “service” the boys without getting much in return, accept maybe a happy boy. This is part of the “open to anything” attitude that Saintfan (I think) is referring to. While it is positive that girls are not shamed for being sexual beings, it is unfortunate that this has evolved to feeling pressured to engage in activity they may not want to in order to be in the “cool” group or be “popular”. This differs from rape in that the girls do not say no, but they may experience regret or unhappiness, especially when no relationship develops. Of course, there are women that embrace this and want no attachments along with hookups, but research suggests many young women that would prefer a relationship of some sort. </p>
<p>Colleges could make more of an effort to explicitly tell students that this is not required behavior and that excessive drinking can lead to bad decisions. Nobody wants to go back to dorm hours and visitation rules, but while what is happening now works for some young women,it certainly doesn’t for all. And likely supports the incidence of rape and other sexual assaults. </p>
<p>It also makes it difficult for colleges (and the police) to determine what actually happened in these cases. How drunk is too drunk to consent? What exactly is consent? The absence of a no and continuing the activity? Or does the absence of a request and a yes mean there was no consent? I would definitely tell my daughter to be explicit and to get up, get dressed and leave. And if that doesn’t work to get loud and fight back. Of course I would tell both my son and daughter not to drink to excess, to tell their potential partner what their expectations are for the encounter, and to ask if the partner is interested. </p>
<p>Mom3, on this thread and others, most of us have advocated women reporting rapes. We all knew this meant that there would be an exponential increase in reports, since most campus rapes were going unreported. Will’s premise is that the increase in reporting represents women “coveting” victimhood, instead of it simply being the result of women finally stepping forward, and not even ALL of them, to report. You can’t say the problem is women need to report and then act as if the increase in reporting is the “problem.” No. Rape is the problem. Reporting is the solution. The women are doing what we have asked. His opinion pieces is balderdash. It fails to acknowledge that this epidemic has gone on for years and, instead, acts as if the women coming forward, finally, is the epidemic. It has the underlying assumption that the past shame and silence was the better way. It’s ridiculous. You cannot advocate reporting rapes as the solution AND agree with George Will who is acting as if the reporting women are the “problem” and not the rapists. </p>
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Repeated for emphasis. I’ve seen this happen and I’ve heard a guy say, “Just wait with the empowered ones because they’ll just talk themselves as if it’s something they really want to do.” Some young women believe their sexual empowerment allows them to have as sex with whoever they want, how much they want, and whenever they want. This is true, but they loose sight on what they really want, when in reality they’re cutting themselves short. In the end, they feel lonely, confused, and unsatisfied. </p>
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Also repeated for emphasis. The communication of expectations is very important. Both parties intentions must be known. In the case where a girl and a guy have been talking all night at the party (they may or may not have been drinking) and the guy offers for them to go back to his place, and his aim for bringing her back is to have sex with her, he should disclose that. </p>
<p>One thing I want to say, though I don’t agree that hook-up culture has a single thing to do with rape, is that my daughters did not participate in hook up culture and found it uninteresting. However, if any girl chooses to have sex with multiple partners, it is still her choice. Her body/her choice. End of story. </p>
<p>However, the incidence of rapes on college campuses has not increased. Rapists are rapists. It has nothing to do with consensual sex. Just to be clear.</p>
<p>Poetgirl: I wasn’t talking about the Will article, don’t agree with it and didn’t mention it. Where did I say I support Will or think there should be less reporting? I certainly believe women should report and nowhere did I say they shouldn’t. I was interested in the reasons WHY women don’t report (and most don’t) and how to change that. If we don’t understand why women don’t report (beyond not being believed) then how can we move toward not just more reporting but less rape? I should have added at the end AND report (it is too late to edit) but I guess I though that was a given. </p>
<p>If you got that I agreed with Will or was advocating not to report, then my post certainly missed the mark. </p>
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I don’t participate in hook-up culture, but there are the instances with many girls actually, where they believe it’s their choice and that they’ve come to that decision, when in reality they were heavily influenced by culture or their environment to believe it’s what they wanted or maybe even expected of them…which goes back to what saintfan was saying where girls say “I thought this is what happens on college.”</p>
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<p>I’m repeating this for emphasis too. Girls and women have choices now. But that doesn’t mean they should allow peer pressure (from other girls as well as boys) to push them into some sexual acts they are not enjoying. It’s supposed to be fun. I worry about this particularly for younger girls. Servicing him isn’t making you empowered, you fifteen year old girl. It’s just making you his sex toy. That’s degrading, not empowering.</p>
<p>mom2, I was responding to MomofThreeboys, though I just call her Mom3 for short. We’ve actually talked about this over the course of several years and several threads, she and I. Sorry for the misunderstanding. </p>
<p>Agree that consensual acts don’t lead to rape. But if women give in to pressure to engage in activities they don’t really want to, doesn’t that fall on something of a continuum between a clear desire and choice to engage and rape? If girls think that if they can’t say no, because hooking up is what is done at college, aren’t they less likely to identify rape and to report it? </p>
<p>I think rapists should be locked in prison for a long, long time. However, I think that in cases like the Swarthmore case or other ‘date rape’ situations, there has to be some evidence beyond “he said, she said”. What should a college administration do if no determination can be made as to whether the young man or the young woman is telling the truth? They can’t just automatically believe the woman. </p>
<p>What if they believe the man? Should the woman be punished for filing a false accusation? </p>
<p>It’s not as though women never falsely accuse men of rape. The Dotsun case in Chicago many years ago comes to mind. The man spent years in prison before the woman recanted. Similar case in L. A. that sent a high school boy to prison. He is now trying to get his life and his potential football career back on track. </p>
<p>I don’t think anyone has any problem with severely punishing rape. The crux of the issue is due process and the standard of proof. </p>
<p>Girls shouldn’t have to “give in” to sexual requests. Parents of young men should teach them that girls are fully sexual beings who are equally able to enjoy sex with a skilled and caring partner. A lot of this, at this point, is up to the boys parents, in my opinion. I taught my girls that sex was mutual and consensual and healthy. But, I also taught them to beware of predators. (they are very beautiful and I had to teach them about this from the time they were like two, frankly)… It is not a stretch to move from “stranger danger” to pedophiles to rapists. They all actually operate the same way. </p>
<p>I don’t really know what to say about girls who “give in.” I’m not sue if that is always rape, since giving in can be a form of consent. We just need to teach our girls to do only what they want. I think we are.</p>
<p>Poetgirl: Sorry, my mistake. But glad you didn’t read that into my post!</p>
<p>George will is paid by Roger Ailes and makes money by being inflammatory. He has opposed rights for everyone except white males. He opposed black civil rights, workers rights, gay rights, Latino rights, and women’s rights. He complains about victimization, but portrays himself as a victim of all of these groups.</p>
<p>Will won’t admit that government is helping fix any problem, and he has no better solution, so he has to claim that the rape problem problem does not exist. </p>
<p>Oddly, Sowell says that a rape problem does exist today, and claims things were better in the good ole days. He imagines that historical laws and rules denying women all the rights and privileges men enjoy were not actually oppressive rules, they were protecting women. In my mind this is just the type of thing an oppresser would say.</p>
<p>Neither of those views strike me as “forward thinking.”</p>
<p>No, I do not believe a woman who thinks sex is supposed to happen at college, decides herself that sex is what she wants because that’s one step closer to being empowered, can claim that her sexual experiences were rape. No. </p>
<p>Nor do I believe a girl who was convinced that she wanted sex by the guy whether it was by repeated askings over time or the like, said yes, and looks back and says she didn’t really want it, can claim that her sexual experience was rape. </p>
<p>At the time they consented and wanted to have sex. </p>