<p>I wonder if people really do have the attitude that the power in sexual decisions is mutual. Take this situation and gage your attitude. Two people meet at a party. They’ve been drinking and the girl decides the the guy is hot and wants to hook up . The girl is good looking too and begins to seduce him. They end up somewhere private things happen, however, the guy is quite drunk (but not too drunk) questions really aren’t asked it just happens. The next day the guy wakes up and is angry. He is in a relationship and feels taken advantage of. She came onto him, he was drunk and so while he never explicitly agreed, he let it happen. Now he feels violated. Was he raped? If you reversed the sexes would that be rape? Sexual assault? I think many would believe that the man has control over that situation even though he did not initiate the sex. I also think that if it were the woman who was seduced but never said “yes or no” that they would say she has cause to accuse the man of assault. Just curious of others attitudes.</p>
<p>Penetration appears to be the key here. According to what I have learned on this thread men cannot be raped unless women are carrying dildos. That’s when I realized that this thread is hopeless.</p>
<p>@ Ivvcsf- I would consider that rape. yes.</p>
<p>It’s kind of like when the female pedophiles prey on the young jr. high age or high school age boys, I completely consider it sexual assault and statutory rape. </p>
<p>@actingmt there are more men raping men than you know. It’s almost never reported, but it’s happening on all college campuses.</p>
<p>@momofthreeboys I might hope that more of the rapists are gotten off of campus, but if you don’t have those conversations with your daughters? It’s as stupid as not teaching them how to cross the street when they are kids.</p>
<p>Agree, and i would add, the conversation with the guys is important also. They absolutely need to understand that right now the way things are, a girl can “change her mind” even if she for all practical purposes seems like she’s into it. I told him if she’s been drinking, the safest thing is to just say “no.” Isn’t THAT ironic. I only have one at home between freshman and sophomore year and we’ve had some interesting conversations about this since this thread started and he’s at at one of the colleges “under investigation.” </p>
<p>Lvvcsf
In your example, he is drunk, but not too drunk. That is an important distinction.</p>
<p>Also, it sounds as if he got an erection. </p>
<p>I think it could be assault if he is not participating. Is he touching her back? Is he undressing himself or her? Is he kissing her back? If not and his sole active participation is getting erect, but otherwise is not participating I think it could be sexual assault. </p>
<p>I also assume that she is on top and initiates penetration and that he continues to lie still and be unresponsive. </p>
<p>I haven’t heard of this, but it is possible. More often, he participates actively because she is attractive and later regrets his infidelity. That is different. </p>
<p>Either person initiating penetration without consent through voice or action can be held responsible,</p>
<p>Just because he has an erection doesn’t mean it isn’t rape. Mutual sex requires consent. Men can and have been raped by women.</p>
<p>I think to call lvvcsf’s scenario a rape is truly a minimization of what rape is, and I don’t think it serves women well at all to call that scenario a rape (for a male or a female). Rape is a violent, criminal act. I don’t see how expanding the definition in this fashion helps women in the least to get convictions because most rational juries are going to put themselves in the scenario and decide if they would consider themselves raped in the circumstances described. Being seduced (and regretting it the next day) is not the same as being raped. </p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with telling young people to resist if a situation gets out of hand. Say no. Say it loudly. Exit the scenario. Push the guy. Scream. That’s what might actually prevent a rape so it doesn’t have to be litigated in the courts. </p>
<p>There’s a lot wrong with telling young people that it’s just fine to lay there passively and then wishfully think the next day that because they didn’t say yes every step along the way that its rape and then wishfully think there’s going to be a conviction. Ok, maybe the guy is going to get kicked out of your college now, but so what? You’ve still been raped. The goal should be to stop those whose understanding might be fuzzy before they rape you. If the understanding truly is fuzzy or misinformed, they will stop when you are very, very clear. </p>
<p>I “get” that the goal is to get men to take on more responsibility in rape prevention, but if you really believe that most rapes are committed by serial rapists, then you are talking about violent criminals. Criminals don’t give a rip about consent on any level. From this whole conversation it sounds more to me like there is a belief that lots of men are rapists, and that they just need to control themselves more and make sure to ask lots of permission - - and that a whole bunch of rapes are going to be avoided by this re-education on what consent really means.</p>
<p>Which is it? Are most guys rapists, intentionally or not? Or are we talking about a group of intractable serial rapists who are committing many assaults? </p>
<p>@Poetgrl “Just because he has an erection doesn’t mean it isn’t rape. Mutual sex requires consent. Men can and have been raped by women.”</p>
<p>Yes. </p>
<p>I think It comes down to whether the person initiating penetration has obtained consent verbally or via their partners actions. It does not matter whether it is a man or a women.</p>
<p>
And how is that different than a woman who get talked into reporting sexual assault when perhaps it’s regret or worse doesn’t know one way or the other because she’s confused by what she took part in? It’s really not different, which is why good counseling is in order for someone who is uncertain how they feel - in parallel with whatever else they might be planning. Men and women aren’t different in that respect. </p>
<p>Much2learn you are making up some truly bizarre sexual scenarios. No, I don’t want details about exactly how this might occur but I completely agree with amarylandmom. Rape is not fuzzy and no-one wakes up the next morning wondering if they were raped. That’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>@ flossy
I am trying to answer this question about whether it is possible for a man to be raped. I think it is but it does not happen much in practice</p>
<p>Why is not appropriate to answer the question? </p>
<p>Clearly this will not occur much, but the poster is trying to understand whether the rules are the same for a man or a woman. I believe they are.</p>
<p>I do like the whole analogy of private property rights and just because you invite someone into your home, doesn’t necessarily mean they can take or do whatever they want once they are in there.</p>
<p>But that being said, if someone starts juggling using my best china, I’m not going to sit there politely and think to myself “oh goodness, I hope he realizes that is my $500 per setting Lenox.” </p>
<p>I’m going to say, “don’t touch my best china”.</p>
<p>And if he continues.</p>
<p>STOP I AM NOT KIDDING. PUT THAT DOWN.</p>
<p>And if he doesn’t respect that, then I’m going to show him the door.</p>
<p>And if he doesn’t leave, I’m going to call the police.</p>
<p>Yeah, it would be nice if he asked me “may I demonstrate my juggling prowess using your china?”. But, boors don’t always know or think to ask.</p>
<p>Don’t women who have been drugged wake up wondering what happened to them?
Penetrating someone unconscious may or not not be defined as a violent act. Definitions will vary as we see on this thread.</p>
<p>Yes! But, most of this is not about unconscious women who swallowed date-rape drugs. That would be rape. Handing someone a condom first or claiming you said no after climbing into bed with him and then let him continue because you were tired, not so much.</p>
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<p>@amarylandmom </p>
<p>This thread has been primarily concerned, due to some posters preoccupation, with the idea of some “accidental” rapists. I don’t for a minute believe this is the case. All the research points to the serial rapists, some of whom, many of whom, use intoxicants as a way to lull their victims into a messy state where it is difficult for them to resist or fight back. These men are not many, but very few. The thread is oddly preoccupied with something else.</p>
<p>But, that does not mitigate the fact that there are women who use intoxicants to take advantage of men. </p>
<p>We would all do well to understand that these outlier conversations are mostly immaterial, but they can be true. Women can be predatory, just like men. It’s simply true. </p>
<p>@flossy it is not true that a woman who is raped while on Rhuhipnol will not wake up wondering what happened to her the night before. She absolutely will. All drugged rapes cause this state. Also, PTSD causes the mind to fight the memories. A man who is shot will wake up in the hospital unsure what happened, as will someone in a truamatic car wreck.</p>
<p>Sexual response, particularly in male to male rape should not be mistaken for consent. I’ve worked with young men who were raped as teenagers. Their shame is partially from that response.</p>
<p>Drugging someone, even if they can’t fight back because they are drugged, does not make this crime less violent.</p>
<p>The thread is preoccupied with the linked cases which include many varying shades of grey and a lot of alcohol. Has everyone read them? Because it sure doesn’t sound that way, anymore. </p>
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<p>There are far, far more documented cases of women who swallowed date rape drugs than the other.</p>
<p>Maybe, but the cases currently launched against schools by young men are the latter. That’s why the thread has gone in this direction. No-one on here is pro-rape. The arguments are about the specific cases brought to the table for discussion.</p>
<p>The rules are the same but the hard-wiring between the sexes is different. My guess is men do feel regret sometimes, but they shake it off easier and are apt to not discuss it with their friends and simply internalize their feelings and they probably don’t categorize it as rape because they went along with it. Many women are more open with their feelings, discuss things more with friends for advice or validation and hang onto the feelings for longer periods of time. And judging from the very few handful of cases occasionally a woman re-pictures the situation the next day in her mind. Now again, people are different and I’m sure there are men that hang on to their feelings longer and women that don’t share every little thing with their female friends, but in general there are basic differences in the sexes and those differences are biological as well as cultural. </p>
<p>^^ So, in general, men and women are different. Thank God. 
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