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<p>OK, let’s take this at face value as accurate.</p>
<p>What if the system becomes a neutral system that is extremely competent in fact finding, i.e., it becomes the system that matches people’s expectations of one that treats accusers fairly, and then, the net result ends up being that college rape cases get an even lower conviction rate? Would you find that a victory or would you still see the system as flawed?</p>
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<p>I agree with this. I think it is great the DOJ is getting involved and pressuring the schools to be active and open about the sexual assaults on campus … it’s about time! I also think schools should have their own judicial boards that handle things below the level of criminal proceedings … meeting the criteria of civil trials or something close to that makes sense to me. Beyond just making sure students follow laws they are also responsible for providing a safe environment … one related issue that would make sense for a school’s judicial board to handle would be sexual harassment issues … issues not handle in criminal courts but which should be addressed. I also see a role for school boards to be involved if it is likely there was a crime but where the criminal court’s “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard can not be met (I think the example of the same male being accused multiple times in he said - she said situations is a great example of where board’s have a role).</p>
<p>The big issue I have with the DOJ guidance so far is around the consent rules. I imagine the “rules” came out the way they did because there is no good way to define them. If there was a camera in the room it would be much easier to make a judgement about consent … however there is not a camera and trying to judge consent after the fact in a he said - she said scenario in pretty tough without some collaborating evidence. All that said I have BIG issues with the current guidance … it’s certainly helps protect women who can not give consent … however it also defines many men as rapists that are far from it. It a drunk women seduces an even more drunk guy and they have intercourse according to the guidelines the guy has committed sexual assault … and, to me, that is just plain wrong. By these rules there were probably thousands of sexual encounters that are defined as sexual assaults every weekend that are just obscuring the real problem. I do not know how to fix the issue but defining tons of mutually (poorly) consented events as sexual assault is far from the right thing to do IMO.</p>
<p>I can start working to a better solution but get stuck pretty fast. It seems to me the standard should be a partner (either one) taking advantage of the other partner’s (either one) reduced capabilities. Sounds great … but without being in the room I’m at a loss at defining a strong defense for the student who can not give consent that does not also pull in all sorts of situations that to not involve any manipulation. </p>
<p>Anyone have any alternative suggestions for defining the consent rules. </p>
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Good question, awcntdb. </p>
<p>“the crime here–nonconsensual sex–is, in terms of facts and evidence, not all that different from a non-criminal act that occurs frequently, namely, consensual sex.”</p>
<p>Right. It would be very rare to have an accusation of theft, or battery, that has no evidence whatsoever besides the accuser’s word. If there were no witnesses, no injuries, and no missing property, you wouldn’t get many convictions for other crimes, either. Yet this is a pretty common set of facts in rape cases. So rape between acquaintances is uniquely hard to prove for reasons that have nothing to do with negative presumptions about rape victims lying. (Stranger rape, though much rarer, is a lot easier to prosecute, because it usually doesn’t look anything like consensual sex.)</p>
<p>Another great example of the legal system “working” and a University stonewalling a Title IX inquiry. Of course it is another “he said, she said” even though there was physical evidence of semen and bruising, security video, a name and 2 direct witnesses in addition to a previous report of a gray area “felt violated but didn’t directly say no” incident on record. Of course the world was on pins and needles to see if he would be “cleared” so they could award him the Heisman. </p>
<p><a href=“Errors in Inquiry on Rape Allegations Against FSU’s Jameis Winston - The New York Times”>Errors in Inquiry on Rape Allegations Against FSU’s Jameis Winston - The New York Times;
<p><a href=“Jameis Winston still under fire for rape allegation”>http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/04/17/jameis-winston-florida-state-rape-allegation-title-ix/7815023/</a></p>
<p>For Niquii (and probably the only post I have time for today)</p>
<p>Poetgrl:
Way up thread poetgrl wrote something about all the laws that have changed, including what is happening with gay marriage. I think a huge change is that the young people I know don’t see the patriarchy as the default setting. They are rejecting the idea of binary sexuality (and I don’t even really know what that means!) They don’t see men and women in adversarial relationships. They are all in it together. They see rape as everyone’s problem.</p>
<p>Consolation:
This is the social group of my kids and their peers. I have no idea how many college males have been through my home in the last decade. Never have I heard this concern they might be falsely accused of rape. Frequently I have heard stories about participating in “Take Back the Night” type events.</p>
<p>Niquii:
I am pretty real change never happens because the discriminated and disadvantaged class asks nicely. The ruling/powerful class tries to convince us it is inappropriate to demand appropriate treatment. They say “play nicely” and just hold onto their power.</p>
<p>In my early 20s an older woman gave me A Room of One’s Own. That was the first time I was introduced to the idea women are silenced by the patriarchy. The silencing hasn’t stopped since Woolf wrote the book. The only appropriate response to silencing is shouting. Asking nicely doesn’t work. imho</p>
<p>I have now read quite a few accounts of alleged rape and sexual assault that sound to me nothing like consensual sex but were reported by the male party as such . . . passed out or nearly passed out young women, several guys either participating or watching, video taken, bruising . . . if this is what some guys view as “consensual” maybe we need to backtrack even further. In most cases I don’t think the accused actually believe that it was consensual, though. What is salt in the wound is that too many administrators, representatives of the law, fellow students, fans, friends, coaches and media representatives are so happy to hear that explanation and just move on with their lives relieved that their bubbles haven’t been burst. </p>
<p>I actually think the alcohol might be an important piece of the puzzle. Right now a young man is accountable for his actions when he’s drinking, but a young woman is not. Face it a big preponderance of our colleges and universities have high percentages of young men and women under the age of 21. They should not be drinking at all. Colleges 'set aside" the drinking issue for the women, yet it is a factor for the males. If both parties are drinking personally I think expulsion should be off the table unless it’s a second or worse a third charge against the young man. They both ought to fall under whatever governs code of conduct for underage drinking and then they can go from there with regard to the allegations, the investigation, evidence, etc. and I don’t have a crystal ball but I will watch with interest the 15 or so cases that have vended their way through the courts. A couple have been settled by the universities but the settlements are not public. The Brown case is interesting because Brown punished the young man and the woman protested and wanted more severe punishment and now his name has become public. That will be an interesting one as her story as presented to the DOJ has changed from her original allegations. Again the DOJ investigations of the 55 universities might also shed some clarity and I find it difficult to believe that colleges can simply set aside underage drinking in states where that is a punishable offense. </p>
<p>Where there’s bruising, videotape, multiple witnesses, etc., you can get convictions when police and prosecutors do their jobs. These are the easy-to-prove cases that expose rape apologists – either those in positions of authority, as in the Jameis Winston case, or those in the community, as in the Steubenville case.</p>
<p>This quote:
was in direct response to the assumed call for a “Stop-And-Frisk” equivalent for men in the name of women’s security. I agree that change does not happen by asking nicely, believe me, I am aware and I know; but, I do not believe and am against a “Stop-And-Frisk”-esque alternative. Doing so suggests that all men are predators when this is not the case. The feedback from the men would be just like the feedback from those who are stopped numerous times weekly because of the color of their skin. To be honest, such an alternative wouldn’t be an effective solution.</p>
<p>I am not saying that women should not make their voices known nor have I ever said anything such. The beliefs you guys think I hold are not the case.</p>
<p>alh, part of my perspective comes from one of a sons who had a good friend accused of rape. It was dropped because the young woman finally admitted she “did it” to get back at her boyfriend, because ultimately she couldn’t live with what she had done – not the sex, the accusation. “Everyone” close to the situation knew why she had sex with the other kid except her mother who most of the parents think did not realize she had a sexually active daughter. Took 3 months. Lots of police investigation even after she told the truth. my son was called for questioning two times. Happened senior year of high school. I can’t imagine what would have happened if that was at a university instead of a high school or a judicial board instead of police. i’ve posted this before in a different thread, but it really did shape my thoughts about investigations, patience and presumption of guilt.</p>
<p>FWIW, I asked senior counsel what would happen if my company had the college system in place to handle such disputes between employees. (We do have an HR review board) Point blank - he would advise we settle immediately because no way would we win if a male sued us for finding him culpable when he and the female are in the same physical intoxicated condition. </p>
<p>In fact, that is against the EEOC guidelines to have such differing professional conduct codes for the genders in equivalent conditions, unless you are dealing with a fundamental physical difference, for example, pregnancy.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys: I am very sorry this happened to your son’s friend. Does this make you think a false accusation of rape is probable? Or that it is something your sons need to be concerned about in their day to day lives? Do you think it makes them distrustful of women?</p>
<p>On a college break, while I was helping one son pack to go back to school, a young woman called and I could overhear the cell phone conversation. She was offering to pick him up at the airport and suggesting they go do something afterwards. He told her he already had a ride (a fib) and repeatedly, though politely, refused her invitations. I was really shocked and asked him who she was and why he wasn’t being any nicer. He had never mentioned her before. She was the former girlfriend of a close male friend. Her roommate, a close female friend, had had to call to have her hospitalized after the breakup. She had a history of hospitalizations. Her parents were never available to help when there was a crisis. The friends group was trying to support her as best they could. None of the young men wanted to be alone with her. I couldn’t believe I’d been about to fuss at him about his behavior. My kids are a whole lot smarter than I am. Fortunately.</p>
<p>Niquii: I’m sorry not to have time to respond to you right now. I find it admirable you are following this thread even though you disagree of some of what is being posted. I think you deserve to have your concerns addressed and your questions answered. That isn’t easy to do, though. And I agree with others it will go way off topic. Or at least off the topic of “consent” which seems to be the primary focus here.</p>
<p>Yes, it made me realize the consequences that happen when someone bends the truth or makes an outright false statement. I had no experience with a police criminal investigation and although my son was only questioned because he was a “witness” that evening it was an interesting process to observe and hear about. The police have to proceed and have to investigate on the assumption that the accuser is telling a true story but the difference I think is that this is normal for a police investigation because at the same time they have to presume the accused is innocent so they do their work, then turn it over to prosecutors for a decision to proceed or not. I don’t have that same trust YET for college tribunals. The GOOD part of this that I didn’t share is it made the group of boys much more aware of what can happen and my son had a very good freshman year alittle older and alittle wiser. I’m sure everyone involved in that episode, boys and girls are wiser today than they were that year about drinking, about sex and about what can happen when no one is expecting it. The boys apparently knew what was happening with the girl and her boyfriend and I bet you every single one of them would today tell you they should have told their friend to stay away from her for awhile. And some think there’s no drama with boys! </p>
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<p>To be clear, I was not in any way calling for a stop and frisk equivalent. I was simply stating that the facts of the way we deal with safety issues in this country have a lot to do with whether or not the people making the rules feel as if their safety is directly impacted. We make all sorts of exceptions to all sorts of civil rights in this country when it is the people out of power who are impacted by the violations and the people in power who are made to feel safer by the rules.</p>
<p>This is why it is important for young women to keep on talking and demanding change. There is plenty of change to be had in all of this, within all the bounds of civil rights and rule of law. </p>
<p>I’d also like to say that if a girl gets a rape kit and there is vaginal tearing, the law should consider this evidence of rape not evidence of sex.</p>
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This reminded me of another point I wanted to make–another thing we need to do is tell our sons not to watch porn, or at least to educate them to understand that the sex depicted in porn isn’t real, and that what women are depicted as wanting and enjoying in porn doesn’t represent what real women want and enjoy. I suspect this may be a significant factor in the problem. Porn is infinitely more available than it was in my youth.</p>
<p>Interesting, the absence of posters jumping in to say they’d feel sorry for hubby and file charges against the aggressive woman, in the twist I added to Hunt’s thought scenario.</p>
<p>@younghoss “Interesting, the absence of posters jumping in to say they’d feel sorry for hubby and file charges against the aggressive woman, in the twist I added to Hunt’s thought scenario.”</p>
<p>The question has been answered in detail and the rules don’t depend on whether it is a man or a woman. That has been explained and I just don’t think anyone wants to go through it again. </p>
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<p>Doubt it. I put money that no one jumped in because they understood the wife’s reasoning.</p>
<p>As the @TheGFG stated my wife said she would not buy it for a minute that I was not responsible and she would hold me accountable for taking not too smart decisions. But, my wife says @The GFG is too kind, as I would not be physically fine. </p>
<p>Gee, I didn’t realize that had been answered about a husband at an office party. I guess your position, m2l, is then, that the women posting on this thread would help file rape charges against a woman if their husband had drunken sex at a party? No reason to be mad at hubby? No reason to blame hubby? (All except thecfg that would blame hubby)
Somehow, I never realized that was the belief of the posters here.</p>
<p>And everyone that posted here that a guy is more responsible in the event of drunken sex would disagree with you, M2L. They say the rules do depend on whether it’s a man or a woman.</p>