time mag article "Sexual Assault Crisis on American campuses"

Parents Forum
161

<p>Niqui77:
I think there would be times when the gun would be used, but that is not the primary benefit.</p>

<p>The reason this has become such a big problem is that alcohol and drinking are out of control, combined with the fact that boys have not been held accountable for college rapes they commit. </p>

<p>I think that boys will view the situation differently if they know that some girls are a carrying guns. Once that they realize that, if she has said “no” once and you did not stop, she has the right to shoot you dead, they will consider their actions much more carefully.</p>

<p>Furthermore, even if she is too drunk to stop him at the moment, the boy has to consider the fact that in the morning she will remember, know where you live, and still have the gun. Now it isn’t so funny. Now the boy has to put himself in real and ongoing danger. </p>

<p>It is possible that a boy could take a girls gun and even shoot her with it, but if he does that, he will almost certainly be caught and go to prison, so that is very unlikely. In fact, if he touches the gun at all, it will significantly strengthen her case. A jury will be much more skeptical of the story that “it was consensual, but I had to grab the gun from her purse.”</p>

<p>So, you are correct, but it will still reduce the ridiculous frequency of campus rapes.</p>

<p>It is not ideal, I agree. However, if you can’t get the alcohol situation under control, and you can’t prosecute successfully because it is too difficult to prove, then unfortunately it may be the best solution. Students have a right to feel safe and protected from rapists on campus, and if the college can’t do the job then students need to be allowed to defend themselves.</p>

162

<p>

</p>

<p>No, it does not. It may have to do with knowledge and experience. Frosh are often more vulnerable because of lack of experience in knowing how much is too much, having gone from a zero-tolerance parental control environment to an environment where alcohol possession is still illegal for them but completely unenforced and tolerated. Date rape drugs are sometimes used by sexual predators to drug victims who may otherwise avoid drinking too much, hence the advice regarding keeping an eye on your drinks. Frosh may also be less aware of this type of thing as well.</p>

163

<p>The idea of arming drunken college students is insane. I can’t think of any other word for it. Please.</p>

<p>As far as responsibility for acts committed while drunk, I personally would make a distinction between acts that harm others, and those that do not. For example, I think most people support punishing people who drive while drunk, even if they were so drunk they didn’t really know what they were doing. But I feel very different about telling people that they are responsible if they are mistreated by another person while they are drunk. To me, that’s like saying that we won’t prosecute people who steal cars that are left unlocked with the keys in the ignition. Sure, it’s imprudent to leave your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, but that doesn’t somehow justify somebody stealing it. I feel the same way about somebody who is raped (or robbed, or cheated) while drunk–it may not have been prudent to get drunk, but that doesn’t change the guilt of the predator.</p>

164

<p>awcntdb wrote: “I do not buy into the “get someone drunk” thing.”</p>

<p>It is true that the girl knows she is drinking, but boys often add more alcohol to a girls drink than she knows (buy a drink and a shot and just pour the shot into the drink before you take it to her). Combine that with pushing the girls to drink more, and you are working to “get someone drunk.” How much of that is her responsibility can be debated, but that boys are often working to “get someone drunk” is pretty much resolved.</p>

165

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t get this.</p>

<p>Emily, the blonde woman in the video, goes to a party. The rapist encourages her to drink too much, and then when she is drunk and resistless, brings her home and rapes her. The next morning, hungover, she has a vague memory about what happened, and she talks to her roommate and her friends to get more details. She knows that the justice system will not convict her rapist, so she gets her gun and shoots him dead. And the same justice system that wasn’t going to convict him of rape is going to let her off?</p>

<p>So now we can shoot people for “crimes” that the justice system does not think are crimes. So now, if I assert, however unjustifiably, that I’m the victim of a crime, then I can shoot the claimed perpetrator. How about the roommate? She knows that Emily was raped. In the light of day, when she realizes she should have stopped the rape before it happened, can she now get her gun and shoot the rapist, and get off?</p>

<p>Why do we have a justice system at all in this vigilante Guntopia?</p>

166

<p>I know from first-hand experience (what I’ve seen) if a person is voluntarily intoxicated and throws a brick through a storefront window, he IS responsible for his actions legally, but a person who does the same while involuntarily intoxicated is not.</p>

<p>The video is interesting. If the group here will permit me to guess, I suspect it is deliberately murky in parts to teach lessons- about dangers and about uncertainty in law. Sure her “best friends” deserted her. Clearly she told the guy No to something while on the dance floor, but we can only guess the question. The bartender broke the law(in my state) by continuing to serve her while he saw the condition she was in. But even then, she drank the shot herelf- no one forced it down her throat.
I don’t blame the guys in line to get in, because they’d have no idea the circumstance. Let’s remember too, that somehow he got to her house- and the video does not hint he already knew her. Did she tell him? Is he telepathic?The house mate, though, the last to see her, and seeing a predictable outcome- a likely crime and taking no action, might even be considered an accessory or a principle if the act came to legal action. Was she the worst one of the bunch?(other than the alleged perpetrator) What if the housemate had been a guy who gave a thumbs-up and a wink as the guy took her into the bedroom? I notice as soon as she lies down, she kisses him back. That is a willful act and certainly indicates a willingness to be kissed. I dismiss his removing her clothes, as sometimes that can happen among willing partners. But the fellow goes beyond kissing. The video is made so she clearly doesn’t say No, but neither does she say or indicate Yes(beyond kissing, that is). It appeared to me that in the bar she had enough faculties to say No, but by the time she got to the bed, she was too far gone to consent.</p>

<p>BUT as I say, I think it was deliberately made to show SO MAny mistakes by others along the way. It could have been a guy jumping from bushes with a gun, or it could have been a girl wearing only cowboy boots and a hat, shouting “Who’s next?”. Those examples are too clear-cut.</p>

167

<p>younghoss, I’m glad you’re talking about the video. I too agree that it is deliberately murky. I also agree that the guys in line, if they didn’t know Emily or the rapist, wouldn’t have an idea of the circumstances. </p>

<p>In law, we are responsible for what we DO when we are drunk. But we are not responsible for what is done to us without our consent. If I throw a brick through a window while drunk, that is something I did, and I’m responsible for it. But if I’m as drunk as Emily was in the video, and someone pulls my wallet out of my purse and takes all my money, then that person is a criminal and I am not responsible.</p>

168

<p>

</p>

<p>Despite the popular press, not sure that is a “fact”…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf”>https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

169

<p>A side note on proving intoxication later, in court.- A bar I worked in briefly was sued by the estate of a fellow killed by a drunk driver- that is, he was the friend/ passenger in a one-car accident, it was his (allegedly too drunk friend) that was driving. Driver had minor injuries. Deceased’s family didn’t let it go, on the belief he should not have gotten into the car. The family did not sue the driver. They sued the bar on the premise that the bar should have known Person 1 was too drunk to continue to be served, yet they did so anyway, so they were at fault for the car accident. In my state, a bar is responsible for consequences if they “knowingly serve a visibly intoxicated” person.
The estate had a difficult time trying to prove how the bar should have known person 1 was too drunk, partly since they weren’t there, and partly since the surviving fellow’s memory was clouded by his booze and the accident. For the family, it was sort of a catch-22. To win the case, they basically had to demonstrate person 1 was SO visibly drunk that a tender would see it and should stop serving him. Yet, if 2 guys really are that drunk, can they remember the night in such detail, that they can be convincing about what they said/did that night to prove they were so drunk? If a fellow can remember such specific details, then does that demonstrate he wasn’t as drunk as he claimed?</p>

170

<p>

</p>

<p>Bravo Chesterton! My very much a feminist daughter and I have discussed this many times. College women are not getting great or even good sex out of these encounters. They are being used, and despite all the talk of sexual empowerment, they wake up the next day feeling used and abused. But they will rinse and repeat this behavior, some in hopes of hitting on a relationship, as conventional dating is dead and buried. They put themselves in questionable situations, the drunker the better to be numb to it all. And sometimes, they say no, and their no is disregarded. More often, they just go along with it, because there they are, and it’s expected, and it will all be over in 30 seconds. </p>

171

<p>1 in 4 or 1 in 5 college women raped, using bluebayou’s source:</p>

<p>“At first glance, one might conclude that the risk of rape victimization for
college women is not high; “only” about 1 in 36 college women (2.8 percent)
experience a completed rape or attempted rape in an academic year.
Such a conclusion, however, misses critical, and potentially disquieting,
implications. The figures measure victimization for slightly more than half a
year (6.91 months). Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic
for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization
is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s
time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated
for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of
college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of
a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of
completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational
institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.”</p>

172

<p>“Why do we have a justice system at all in this vigilante Guntopia?”</p>

<p>The failure of the justice system is the problem here. It has been almost completely ineffective at holding perpetrators accountable for their crimes. </p>

<p>I would ask why it is that when it was girls being raped, with virtually no convictions occurring, few people seemed to care much about the total lack of effective justice. There has been a clear message sent to girls that “The government is not responsible to protect you. You are responsible for yourself, your actions, and the consequences or those actions.” However, as soon as someone suggests providing girls with the means to do exactly that people seem to suddenly think that the government needs to step in to protect these rapists. What happened to personal responsibility, and accountability all of a sudden? Suddenly campus violence is a problem? It looks like a clear double standard to me. Many seem to think it somehow it is different if it is the boys that may be at risk. </p>

<p>We either need to find ways to prevent women from being raped on campuses, or find a way to successfully convict the rapists, or admit that we can’t do it, and allow women to defend themselves. The status quo of allowing these rapes to continue, claiming they cant be prosecuted, and then blaming the victim is not an option.</p>

173

<p>thanx fang, for thoughtful response. But allow me to disagree with a part of it. This is largely up for debate in law, and in this thread: “In law, we are responsible for what we DO when we are drunk.” Much debate here is what of woman that does give consent while drunk. As I’ve said before, some say Yes means Yes, others say Yes can mean Yes or No and that it is up to the guy to make the right, proper, and legal choice for the woman that said yes.</p>

<p>I completely understand a woman’s No means No, even if it overrules a previous Yes, and can overrule a guy saying Yes. I don’t quite get how a guy who says Yes is obligated to overrule a woman’s Yes.</p>

174

<p>Is there a woman in the US who has reached the age of 45 without knowing a woman (and sometimes a man) who has been raped? I doubt it. </p>

<p>If you think that in most cases of rape, especially on a college campus, calling the police will result in an arrest, let alone a conviction, you are, IMO, incredibly naive. In most cases, the only 2 people present when the rape happens are the man and the woman. (In the rare cases when there is a witness, it’s probable that the witness is his friend who will lie and back up his story, not testify for her. ) Even if he really did rape her–and unlike Hunt, I think a man physically overpowering a woman to rape her is very, very common on college campuses–he’s going to claim consensual sex. Unless she is really badly beaten, it’s extremely unlikely that a jury will find a young man guilty of rape beyond a reasonable doubt. Because it is so unlikely, the police will rarely arrest anyone. </p>

<p>On many college campuses, the majority of sexual assaults occur within the first 6 weeks of the academic year. The majority of the victims are freshman women. The majority of the perpetrators are juniors and seniors. Most of the perpetrators are repeat offenders. They use alcohol as a tool to be able to sexually assault young women. </p>

<p>n an old thread, a mom posted about how discouraged her son became working part-time as an EMT on a college campus. He took many young women to the hospital from parties for alcohol poisoning. It wasn’t uncommon for it to be obvious they had had sex-I’m trying to use neutral wording-though often they were so far “gone” they didn’t realize it. There was never a falling down drunk guy who " matched" and needed to be taken to the hospital. So our young EMT came to the conclusion that this wasn’t really “consensual” sex. </p>

<p>Now, you will glibly say that the young women just shouldn’t get drunk. Using the statistics someone else posted in this thread, at least 40% of the young women who are raped on college campuses have not been drinking at all. So it’s simply magical thinking that your daughters are safe if they don’t drink. They aren’t. </p>

175

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, and I think that’s misplaced debate. In my view, Yes means Yes, even if the person is drunk. Others may disagree, in the case of an extremely drunk woman. But I also think that the cases where the woman consented (clearly consented, by explicitly saying yes, by enthusiastic participation, or initiating the whole thing) and then later said she was raped are the tiny minority of all cases. We shouldn’t let that gray area derail the whole discussion.</p>

<p>Emily’s rapist would say she consented, even though she didn’t. Men like Emily’s rapist are a serious issue. He deliberately set out to ensure she was very drunk, then dragged her around and used her as his sex toy. Most men don’t do that, but some men, rapist men, do, and they do it on purpose, and they almost always get away with it, and other men don’t call them on it.</p>

176

<p>I think the weakness of the statistics makes discussions of this more difficult, and manipulation of the statistics makes it even worse. For example:

There are a bunch of logical flaws in this analysis–note, for example, that if jonri is correct that the majority of victims are freshman women, and if a majority of assaults happen in the first six weeks of the academic year, then you can’t just extrapolate 2.8% to five years of college. So how great is the risk, then, really? Nobody really knows, and it might vary a lot from campus to campus. If it’s really the case that most perpetrators are serial predators, where are they likely to be found?</p>

<p>But I think the statistics are also a distraction, because they tend to make people argue about how big the problem is, rather than talking about what to do about it.</p>

<p>I’m inclined to think that some of the most effective measures will be to change the attitudes of “bystanders” with respect to what to do when they observe an exploitive situation, and also efforts to somehow tame the out-of-control drinking culture.</p>

177

<p>@younghoss - For your example about the family suing the bar, I would imagine a case like that would hinge on finding other patrons as witnesses and/or and surveillance footage. Otherwise I agree the case would be very tough. Probably tough anyway, although with some evidence I imagine the sympathy factor from the jury would go a long way. But that is another topic.</p>

178

<p>I wonder if it might be a good idea to encourage women who have been assaulted to sue the perpetrators for monetary damages in civil court. The evidentiary standard there is preponderance of the evidence, and juries might be willing to impose some significant monetary damages.</p>

179

<p>^^ I totally agree with that.</p>

180

<p>think the arguments about statistics are to demonstrate that rape happens, when, where, to whom, etc. Surprisingly people can read the same report and interpret it differently if they have a different sense of the problem. Ala blue bayou’s unwillingness to follow through to the statistical conclusions of his/her own source. </p>

<p>The whole process of problem>>>solution is helped by defining the problem, its magnitude, and specifics. I think colleges are finally acknowledging the problem in public and, I hope, systemic ways. As the problem exists now, individual women have to pack a gun or go to court for solutions. A change in college cultural norms would make more people than just the raped women responsible for the crime and its solution.</p>