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<p>Boys <em>often</em> do these things? Really? Resolved by whom? Sure, predators may often do these things, but I doubt that “boys” in general do. I just read this paragraph to S, a recent college grad, and he said that he had never heard of a person adding a shot to a girl’s drink. (Adding that he didn’t hang out with a “rapey” crowd.)</p>
<p>I know guys buy some strong drinks or multiple drinks…but I don’t hear of mixing drinks like described above…</p>
<p>I believe this boys and men are like X approach, instead of saying predators and rapists, is why many young women run from feminism today. </p>
<p>Just like most females are not hookers, most boys do not try to get women drunk and rape them. Presenting males, in general, as some enemy is counterproductive to get males to help out because all are being skewered. </p>
<p>And females, who actually like males, are not falling for this boys are bad and untrustworthy labeling across the board.</p>
<p>Hunt I started a post earlier today but duty called at work and I didn’t get to finish my thoughts, but in general the numbers that are being bandied about in terms of percentages feel off. If you start to dig into the numbers it is even more questionable. Nothing of which diminishes the importance of being careful and taking some personal responsibility whether you are male or female.</p>
<p>And I agree with you Consolation and add a big “what??” – boys often do this or that and boys are working to get girls drunk? – just don’t even pass the smell test. If you even take the time to watch the video scenario, the young women was slugging those drinks down all by herself for the first 30% of the video and I’ve witnessed young women pounding down the shots, pre-gaming with other women and playing beer pong right next to the guys so no, most boys aren’t ‘working’ to get girls drunks, the girls are doing it all by themselves some of the time.</p>
<p>No one is going to disagree that cultural norms could use some tweaking, but girls are no where near as innocent as some posters want to think, no where near as innocent. Don’t kid yourself if you are a mother of girls what they might be up to. I see them and I see them around boys…and have now for almost a decade. </p>
<p>I also agree with Hunt and say women should use every legal measure they have to bring something criminal to trial, even availing themselves of civil courts - but conversely this would hold true for the boys, also, if they ‘feel’ they’ve been wronged. If I had girls, I would support that action in any way I could but since I have boys I would never want to see them railroaded. Some of the cases in court right now make it difficult to champion the women who caused the existing law suits. It can cut both ways. </p>
<p>awcntdb, I agree with what you post. I asked my college son who is home for the summer about all this last night as he’s at a college on “the list” and he shrugged and basically said it wasn’t too much of a concern among his group of friends male and female but he did also said the first couple months of college there were a “ton” of parties and ambulance transfers and drunk girls (and guys) on campus but he said it slowed way down around mid-terms. Rinse and repeat every fall with a new batch of freshman. </p>
<p>“Just like most females are not hookers, most boys do not try to get women drunk and rape them. Presenting males, in general, as some enemy is counterproductive to get males to help out because all are being skewered.”</p>
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<li><p>No one suggested that males in general are the enemy. That is just another strawman to try and make men the victim and distract from the issue.</p></li>
<li><p>Drawing an analogy suggesting that a male rapist is similar to a female prostitutes, a much more minor crime is, at best, ignorant and offensive. </p></li>
<li><p>I have not seen anyone suggest that all men or most men are bad? You are trying to be offended by something that has not been said. Of course most men are not bad. That is ridiculous.</p></li>
<li><p>You say that “many young women run from feminism today.” Once again this comment shows a lack of understanding. Feminism, according to Webster, is, “The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities.” I have not seen many young women running from that belief outside of the religious right.</p></li>
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<p>Stop trotting out #NotAllMen. We know #NotAllMen are rapists. But #YesAllWomen know they are potential victims of the men who are rapists, and #YesAllWomen can’t tell the rapists from the non-rapists just by looking. Didn’t we just hash all that out on Twitter last week? </p>
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<p>Glad to have you clarify your position. When you stated that “boys”–not rapists or predators–“often” engaged in these behaviors and that it was a generally accepted fact, you sure as hell sounded like you were saying that many, if not most, “boys” were bad, if one regards getting women drunk and raping them as bad, which I certainly do.</p>
<p>As a feminist and as a human being, I am very concerned about the prevalence of sexual assault against women, both on campus and off. I think it is important to be careful and accurate so as not to derail the conversation. </p>
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I’m not crazy about feminism, but the boy and men are like X approach isn’t the main reason why I’m not running towards it. :)</p>
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<p>Funny, my son who is also home said almost the identical thing in the car ride. At parties, he is more concerned about getting away from drunk girls than anything else. The amount of self-induced drunk girls would scare a lot of posters here worried about boys getting girls drunk. </p>
<p>His point was the girls often show up already drunk at midnight and want to dance. However, he is one of those guys who figured out that those are the dances you turn down. I met several of his male and female friends and none that stuff was a concern to them as well.</p>
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This is true. </p>
<p>@awcntdb @Niquii77 tbh the whole “boys/men are like x” is more radfem than liberal feminism, which is what the vast majority of feminists tend to support, and afaik even radfems don’t think “all boys/men are like x” so much as they believe “all boys/men are influenced to be like x, regardless of whether or not they actually decide to be/to support x”.</p>
<p>edit: correct me if i’m wrong though about the last part</p>
<p>Here’s an update on the boy/accused rapist suing Duke after expulsion.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645962/Australian-soccer-star-NOT-expelled-US-university-sex-assault-allegations-faces-year-long-legal-battle-clear-name.html”>News Headlines | Today's UK & World News | Daily Mail Online;
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<p>I think it is best you re-read the various posts. The word “boys” are used without any qualifiers all over the place. </p>
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<li><p>“Teach your boys not to be rapists” is pretty much an indictment of boys, period. I understand you may read this differently, but as a male I read that pretty clearly as boys (males) in general.</p></li>
<li><p>“…but boys often add more alcohol” - I read this the same way too. Reads like boys (males) in general to me. And the word “often” just makes it sounds like normal male behavior, which I can tell you that it definitely is not. I understand you may read this differently.</p></li>
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<p>I could list more from this thread, but two are instructive enough.</p>
<p>Not sure how you can teach and say such general statements above to young women and then not have them look at boys (males) in general with serious suspicion, as an enemy to their well-being. As a male, these statements sure come off as I am some sort of general enemy to be feared. I understand that you may read it differently. </p>
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<li><p>As for my analogy, I was not comparing crimes, I was comparing labels: hookers and rapists. Again, please read my points #1 (boys labeled generally as rapists) and #2 (boys labeled generally as often adding alcohol) above. I would not want girls to be generally labeled as hookers. That was my point. I understand you may read it differently.</p></li>
<li><p>“many young women run from feminism today.” OK, I see you have to go to the dictionary. But, how about talking to the female students on campus, which my son does all the time? A sizable number of female students want nothing to do with 1980 - 90s feminism, as they find it alienating of men in its message. Do not take my word for it, talk to females on campus today. But, these female students are not the only ones. Many famous, public women are missing the message too it seems, as this mainstream magazine article points out (and there are many more such women):</p></li>
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<p><a href=“http://www.glamour.com/inspired/blogs/the-conversation/2012/08/6-famous-women-who-say-theyre.html”>http://www.glamour.com/inspired/blogs/the-conversation/2012/08/6-famous-women-who-say-theyre.html</a></p>
<p>@Flossy Thanks for the article. </p>
<p>"‘Throughout the hearing, members of the panel and the Office of Student Conduct made decisions that prevented Mr. McLeod from presenting his side of the story, denied him his right to respond to allegations against him and denied him his right to a fair and impartial hearing,’ his attorneys wrote."</p>
<p>If this is accurate, it is just plain wrong. No other way to put it.</p>
<p>@shinchang - The main thing I got from my son’s female college friends is they do not like being portrayed as victims of males. They feel weakened by it. They just want to be left alone as females and not always being told they need help. </p>
<p>So, your distinctions of the different feminists (liberals and rad) really are not what they are looking at. They just see the whole feminist thing as a negative to them being viewed as equal. Someone who is equal to you does not need an advocate to tell others she is equal.</p>
<p>This does kind of makes sense since the male-female ratio is 50-50 and women have the same SAT scores and take the same classes, as the men. They do not feel less than the males, because by all objective measures, they are not. They just do not see / feel the same overriding inequality issues that the former generations see. </p>
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<p>That is a distinction without a difference. The basic premise is men are or might be x, so watch out. The driving assumption is the negative. Kind of hard to expect good gender relations starting out on an assumed negative.</p>
<p>I’m not well versed in the types of feminism because it has never interested me to put a label on my beliefs. I’m not crazy about feminism. You won’t see me shouting it from the roof tops or wearing toting badge on my backpack. My beliefs sort of lie within the "treat those with what they have earned no matter what their sex is, age is, sexuality is, etc., etc., etc…</p>
<p>One reason I’m quick to not call myself a feminist is because I’ve seen women give it a bad name, and I don’t agree with some of the well publicized feminist beliefs. I’ve seen feminists say that a man being courteous to them strips them of their rights. As if they’re going to forget how to open a door. I’ve seen feminists so hellbent on declaring their independence that it isolates to the point that unimportant dynamics in everyday life are a threat upon their freedom. There’s a part of feminism that is so adamant on going against traditional roles of women that they don’t even see they’re discouraging their very own women who happen to enjoy those roles. It’s just…eh…doesn’t sit well with me. </p>
<p>These are just a few things I don’t care for. I may have feminist beliefs here and there, but until I see something different being thrown out; I’m not running towards it. </p>
<p>Eh.</p>
<p>@Niquii77 </p>
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?? I’ve… never heard anything like that from any of the feminists I know, and the majority of my friends are feminists. That must have been really awkward, though.</p>
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I actually have seen this pretty often, and although I do disagree with it, it’s not so much a feminism thing as it is a “certain feminists are hypocritical, just like certain people of other groups. the end” type of deal.</p>
<p>@awcntdb
ewwww super long post sorry</p>
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The whole “men need to speak up for women” is also a radical feminism thing. I’m not going to get into the radicalism vs liberalism debate because tbh I don’t really think that adds anything to the conversation at hand, but I do wonder why most non-feminists seem to believe radical feminism = feminism when radfems are a minority.</p>
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Let’s just… not go there. Rape is a crime in which the victims are hurt, often both physically and mentally. Prostitution might be illegal in some places, but it’s still a job in which both parties technically benefit. Also, women are sometimes the victims of prostitution (human trafficking) rather than the aggressors, while the rapists are the aggressors, so I can’t really see where you’re going with that. To equalize the two would be extremely ignorant and harmful.</p>
<p>I do agree with points 2/4 though.</p>
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Not all boys will grow up to be rapists given that their parents do not directly teach them that rape is bad, and some boys will rape even if their parents teach them otherwise. However, the point of the quote seems to be that it’s foolish to expect your children to ~magically~ know not to rape if you haven’t bothered to teach them not to. The point of the quote is that girls are constantly raised and influenced to be cognizant (and, to a certain extent, afraid) of their surroundings, to abstain from alcohol use, to “dress properly”, etc., while boys generally receive little to no proper education on not raping. </p>
<p>Literally, during one of my health classes (I’ve taken too many; school reqs), we received an extremely quick lecture on rape prevention. Girls-specifically-were taught to “dress modestly, not use drugs/alcohol, and travel in crowds” as if that was a 100% viable, foolproof solution; both boys and girls were told, and I say this in verbatim, “rape is not good. You guys should never rape.” This was while I went to a liberal school in a liberal city/state. The teacher considered herself a Democrat. There was no discussion on why rape was bad, or even on what rape even entailed. If you haven’t realized by now that the definition of “rape” fluctuates greatly with each person you talk to, sometimes moreso than at other times, you obviously haven’t talked to enough people/groups of people. </p>
<p>TBH I’m too lazy and pressed on time to dig up the reference (although I can and will at a later time if anyone wants me to), there was a study stating that while most men knew that rape was bad, a much fewer percentage of the same men believed that “non-consensual sex” was bad. Rather, some of the very men who had denounced rape earlier claimed they were interested in “non-consensual sex”, which is afaik the simplest and most widely acknowledged definition of rape out there. </p>
<p>If ^ doesn’t signify that there’s some sort of flaw in the way many parents and teachers educate boys/growing men on not becoming rapists, I don’t know what does. Perhaps the quote is an indictment of boys specifically, but from my experience, girls are already much more aware of rape, regarding both the recognition and the prevention of it, in large part because (1) they are already taught over and over again about the necessities of “preventing” it and (2) it concerns them more directly, or at least educators (parents included) seem to believe as such, than it does men. Although men/boys are also raped (and they definitely should not be), the vast majority of rape victims are female; the vast majority of rapists are men. </p>
<p>(edit) TL:DR; the quote’s not saying all men are rapists imo. the quote’s just saying that rape education is far from perfect.</p>
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<p>While there may be technical differences in the legal definitions of “rape”, isn’t sexual intercourse with someone who does not consent, or is unable to legally consent (intoxicated, underage, etc.), always illegal in US states? (Of course, arrest and prosecution of perpetrators can be difficult, especially if there are no witnesses and the victim was too drunk or drugged to remember anything clearly.)</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus It’s illegal, yeah, and of course there’s a legal/dictionary definition for it, like with most things. That doesn’t make it the popular definition, though, and there’s also some disagreement regarding what constitutes “consent”. Yes, the popular definitions won’t help the rapist much in court, but the legal definitions won’t prevent the rapist in the first place if the popular definitions contradict them.</p>
<p>I’ve personally heard people claiming that women are/aren’t consenting as long as they don’t physically retaliate (which is obviously going to involve more than “minor” pushing/hitting), that women can/can’t magically “silently consent with their eyes”, that it “is/isn’t rape if the woman agrees/reacts to it at the end”, and a myriad of other things, some more ridiculous than others. All of the people who spoke as such were perfectly serious. Also, I’ve often heard (like most people, I assume, especially since iirc someone said it on these forums, too) people criticizing the idea that “intoxicated people are always rape victims”. Granted, some of these are the more extreme examples, but the very people who say the more drastic things are also the people who are imo more likely to rape, so eh.</p>
<p>Sorry I wasn’t clear; the details about what equals “consent” is generally what I meant by the fluctuation in the definition of rape. </p>