If it were my kid and she had her heart set on Amherst, I’d let her to apply ED and to heck with admissions game theory. Otherwise, she may always wonder “what if”. She sounds like the type of student that Amherst admissions might find intriguing coming from an underrepresented state which is a mini-hook on its own. Amherst does look for for geographic diversity. Also, her application might get more attention within the smaller ED pool. I know AOs in the past who would give extra attention to an applicant from say Idaho or the Dakotas.
D20 decided very early on (mid-sophomore year) that LACs we’re where she saw herself after tirekicking visits at some local schools. As a result, we focused on visiting all of those that fell within her desired distance from home - over 30 in 5 states, several that you have mentioned. I know things are much different now, with campuses closed and info sessions happening online. We found the differences among schools in tone and feeling staggering with some feeling like home instantly and others we couldn’t get away from fast enough. Any school where you think ED will be an advantage may turn out to be a nightmare if she hasn’t had the chance to “feel” it.
My D had a clear favorite a full admissions cycle early. She spent that time cultivating a relationship with the college, visiting campus, and meeting her AO. There were other schools she liked, too, but she applied ED to that one. She was academically within the range (4.0 UW gpa, SAT over the 75th%, 5s on all AP tests), had ECs that showed who she was. We had financial need, came from an overrepresented area, and she had no hook at all. She felt the ED application was what would make the difference but I think her acceptance and excellent FA package were a result of her making a connection with the school and showing them what she would contribute to the community. The one thing I can’t stress enough is a college (all of them, but LACs make a point of saying it) replaces 25% of their population every year and they strive to maintain a balanced community. It really is about the fit and not what a school can do for the student but how the student can improve the school. An ED application shouldn’t be determined by trying to leverage some perceived advantage in acceptance rate but merely to demonstrate the applicant’s commitment to contribute to that community in particular.
That’s a fair point @monydad . It is a different attitude around here.
I had more than a few guys mystified that son turned down a good athletic scholarship at State U, which is a top 10 D1 team, and went Ivy instead. One guy asked this spring if he was transfering from his Ivy to the State U or even the D2 directional U since he didn’t start last year and seemed surprised when I said no. Lots of guys just can’t wrap their head around the fact that he could be doing what he loves at a high level 2 hours away and instead flew halfway across the country.
I golfed in league last night with a guy who asked about my hat (son’s team). Turns out he went to Colgate. We talked a bit about D’s search. He said it’s a shame that more kids around here don’t at least consider the options. I agree. BTW, I’m guessing the other 2 guys we were golfing with wondered why we were talking about toothpaste when they heard him change the subject from colleges to Colgate.
Most of the top 10 students in my daughter’s graduating class attended our state universities. Two went to a UC. My daughter chose Columbia University (but now is switching to our flagship state university—-a whole other story).
A lot of locals hadn’t even heard of Columbia U and mistake it for other Columbias. One of her classmates who was familiar with Columbia said, “That’s not a real Ivy like Harvard or Yale.” 
I laughed out loud. Imagine if she had gone to a Claremont school or Reed…
So, in my neck of the woods, attending an in-state college is totally expected. And it’s usually an economical choice, especially if med school, law school, or a master’s are in the cards. In our case, it was not the most economical choice.
@whidbeyite2002 to a certain extent you are right, if she says Beloit or Amherst, and then says it competes withHarvard for it’s students, both are equally believable to most people around here.
I guess part of it is being able to tell others, I think part of it is also she wants to see if she can swim in the big pond.
Regarding the sub-topic of the interchangeability of schools, I’d say that some colleges do blend together in their characteristics, and therefore could reasonably be substituted for each other under strategic considerations. Other colleges, however, may offer desirably distintictive attributes. In these cases strategic concessions might result in unacceptable compromise.
The colleges that 99% of Americans know of can probably be counted on one hand. Harvard. Yale. Princeton. Maybe Penn State? (Not to be confused with Penn, of course. But tbh, most people don’t even know they are different universities.)
I bet that many of the posters on this thread whose kids attend/ed LACs had a conversation like this in the beginning:
D’s Freshman Year:
Casual acquaintance: “So where does Suzy go to college?”
Me: “She goes to Bates!”
Casual acquaintance: blank stare
D’s Sophomore Year:
Casual acquaintance: “So where does Suzy go to college?”
Me: “She’s at Bates College in Maine. It’s not far from Portland.”
Casual acquaintance: “Oh yeah, great!”
My point is that if someone is really concerned about recognition, he/she isn’t going to get it by attending an LAC. The good news is that the people who matter (hiring managers, grad school AO’s, etc…) DO know about LACs.
And I also agree that where you live makes a difference. I grew up in California, then I lived in UK for 20 years, and now I’m on the East Coast. In So Cal, it was UCLA or USC. In England, apart from Oxbridge, Durham was pretty hot. In my current area, many local students aspire to large state flagships or the Ivy League. I can say honestly that I had never heard of half the Ivy League schools until I moved here. People don’t care about the name of a college unless it’s on their radar.
I like the general guidance. I have no skin in the game but when someone earlier mentioned their friend’s student getting into a middling school, Georgetown. I had to reread a few times it to see if it was not someone trying to be funny.
That’s the problem on sites like this at times.
Georgetown is considered more selective in many majors than many ivy schools. Also any college that rejects nearly 9 out 10 fantastic high achievers. Middling. It’s one of the holy trinity of catholic universities.
None are middling. Unless middling is defined as the statistical 99th percentile of the 3000 colleges in the USA. It’s maddening.
Sorry rant over. I so dislike misrepresentation of basic mathematics and reality. 3mm kids graduate each year. 1.3 mm +|- don’t have the luxury of attending college full time. The remaining 1.7mm about 1.5mm or more don’t even consider schools being mentioned in this thread.
They are all elite in the real world. Any can lead you to the pinnacle of success in any profession. Period.
The rest is elitist horse…
Lol on the Georgetown, I had the same thought although I didn’t think it was really that important so I didn’t address it. What’s the LAC equivalent prestiege-wise of Georgetown, Hamilton or Bates maybe?
If D has middling results like that we are going to be a very, very happy house come March.
Considered by the limited aspect of SAT profile, Georgetown places more closely to Hamilton than to Bates:
ACT Middle Ranges
Hamilton: 1410–1510
Georgetown: 1370–1530
Bates: 1280–1460
Note that standardized testing requirements and reporting standards differ across these three schools, however. Georgetown, by offering the greatest level information on its CDS, likely deflates the appearance of its profile in relation to those of the other two schools.
@dadof4kids - I see a couple of other strands to your strategy which you could consider. I saw on your other thread concern about need blind/need aware/ amount of need changing, so maybe these could offer a back up?
-
Finding another auto admit. affordable safety other than your in-state school, so if everything goes belly up, she has a choice. With her stats, she’ll get money at the usual suspects of Arizona, Alabama, Ole Miss, Miami OH, etc. Someone up thread suggested flaghips in neighboring states also. Often the basic app for these places takes 5 minutes and you hear back quickly. There are follow up apps for the Honors College and other specialist programs, but these are also fairly straightforward IME.
-
Consider some of the competitive merit awards which would mean affordability and prestige. A McNair Scholarship to South Carolina is plenty prestigious. How about Vandy’s scholarships or Morehead Cain for UNC? The Gabelli at BC?
And make sure she knows there is a budget, and that requiring need can affect admission. That was the one of the hardest conversation I ever had to have with my eldest…
Good luck!
Though labeled incorrectly in reply #89, those were obviously the SAT profiles for the included schools. These are their ACT middle ranges, along with the percent of students for which scores were reported:
Hamilton: 32–34 (40%)
Georgetown: 31–35 (47%)
Bates: 29–33 (31%)
@merc81 , how much do those numbers matter?
D will soon be starting a job with several other new hires, all of whom graduated from Harvard, Penn and Columbia. Not trying to show off. Comparing test score ranges is splitting hairs with most of the schools mentioned in this thread.
I’ll be fascinated to see the numbers from this coming cycle. Apparently a bunch of colleges have been calling Bates, which has been test optional since 1984, about how to evaluate apps better in the absence of test scores. We all know a good test score is generally helpful, but a college like Bates, I believe, receives up to 30% of its apps without scores. Bates grads have very high acceptance rates to med school and get good jobs. Not trying to promote Bates (maybe just a bit, lol), just trying to emphasize that I believe more and more, it’s evident that test scores don’t mean much.
I think that as 1/350 from an underrepresented state, your D will stand out a bit. The test scores, in that company, will not move the needle.
If she has a first choice and if you are comfortable with what is coming up on the NPC, I would recommend ED there. I do not think it offers a huge bump, but to the extent that a school wants someone like your D, it’ll be her. In the RD round, they may no longer have that priority.
I dislike differentiating the schools by using the word “preppy” because that means different things to different people. But there are schools that are more “sporty/outdoorsy”, ones that are more “artsy”, ones that are more “nerdy”. That’s not to say that an artsy kid won’t have a great experience at a sporty school or vice versa. To me, Vassar is the outlier in your top 3.
For her interests, the LAC route sounds awesome, btw. One of the admissions IG i like is thiscolbylife. It highlights 2 or 3 students each week and it’s very cool to see how they’ve explored their interests and where it’s taken them. While these are the stories of Colby students, I think it could inspire your D about ANY LAC and the possibilities. (And that is one, btw, that in spite of single digit acceptance rates, I would guess would admit her.)
Your list is evolving nicely!
Excellent point @gardenstategal . I don’t do Instagram, but when I was asking my kids how to help students get a better idea of colleges, they both said to search for IG posts using college tags. OP’s D can look at both official IG college accounts and student accounts.
Yes great idea to look at the Insta accounts of current students and their friends. My D did this before going to her big southern state school, as she was worried that everyone would be Lily Pulitzer Southern Royalty. Seeing there was a range of students, plus a lot of kids who were just like her, put her mind at rest that would find her gang.
^ The good things about the IG accounts run by admissions is that you can see what kind of student is thriving the way they define it. That can be helpful in terms of crafting an application as well as discerning fit. When most of the students are involved in a couple of activities, that shows that the school is looking for kids who are doers and often with different talents. (The LAC “needs to wear several hats” thing!) When kids talk about exploring/applying what they’ve done in the classroom through travel or volunteering, you know the school values the experiential element of learning. When kids talk about doing things that tie together different disciplines, you know that interdisciplinary work is encouraged.
And yes, to get a sense of vibe, your kids have great advice. Especially if a kid is interested in Greek life.
This thread has been super helpful, thanks to everyone.
I probably will end up giving her a list that looks similar to the one a couple pages ago, although I think I will add Whitman and Richmond, maybe 1 or 2 more. I will probably have stars by 25 or so that I think merit a spot on the final list. And then she will have to cut it down to 15-20 from there. I will advise but she will have to come up with the final list. She is kind of relieved that I did this part for her. Honestly it’s pretty overwhelming. And she is really trying to still be a kid and enjoy this last year, even as screwed up as it is turning into. So she appreciates me taking the bulk of the heavy lifting off of her plate.
I go back and forth with how good I feel about the underrepresented state and 1/350. Plus she has the agriculture EC’s. People around here wouldn’t consider her a farm kid but compared to 99% of applicants to those schools she looks like a farm kid, so that’s something different. We are not close to full pay though, which especially this year probably matters.
I’m hoping that someone will see her and think that she does a great job plugging a couple of holes. My guess is that there are some head scratchers when we get her final acceptance/denial list. It would not surprise me at all if she gets into a place like Williams or Amherst or Rice, but denied at Macalaster or Connecticut. If you take our location away, she is pretty “average” excellent not outstanding. But I think that will give surprises, probably both ways. That’s why I’m still leaning towards filling out entirely too many apps this fall.
Good luck. She sounds awesome and has a great dad too.
@privatebanker thanks.
I don’t remember it exactly, but there is a line in the movie “The Accountant” where JK Simmons says something along the lines of “I haven’t always been a good husband or good at my job, but I have always been a good dad”. While ideally I would like to be better at my job and be a better husband, my priority has always been on being the dad. I certainly have not done perfectly by them, but I’ve probably done the best I am capable of doing.
I had a good example set for me, for which I will always be grateful. My dad and I are not “touchy feely” at all. But a couple years ago I did make sure he knew how much I appreciated everything he did for me and that I was doing my best to pay it forward. TBH it was a kind of awkward conversation, because neither of us really talks about things like that. But I gave him a hug and we moved on. I’m glad he knows that I know how much he did for me and that I’m doing the same for his grandkids.