Tips on managing juniors and seniors with attitude

Parents Forum
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<p>Spidey, I feel your pain! You described my own D when she was back in middle school and early high school. Wish I had some advice for you, but mostly I just muddle through, doing what you're doing. Good luck!</p>

<p>Now we have the opposite situation - after several years of ugliness, my daughter has morphed back into the the considerate, witty, easy-going kid she used to be. (Okay, except for an occasional hormone-induced spell that even she admits is hormone-induced.) As I've lamented to my DH, now that she's a rising senior with only one more year at home - NOW she's agreeable?? Good grief.....</p>

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<p>scout59 -- just be happy you got her back!</p>

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<p>citygirlsmom wrote:
[quote]
SO, they are rude and you ignore it, would you let a 6 year old treat you like that, a 24 year old, but yet you let a teen, who can manage to be nice to others, but doesn't bother to try and be courteous to family</p>

<p>Interesting that we will not accept a tantrum from a 2 year old, but from a teen, well gee don't upset his self confidence by telling him not to treat you like dirt</p>

<p>If they are smart enough to get into college, they are smart enough to not be rude</p>

<p>" i try not to argue too much with him" </p>

<p>it like we are allowing or teens to be bullies and pass it off as okay, they are looking for independence</p>

<p>you know, many kids are independent, and also kind and not rude</p>

<p>my Ds aren't perfect, but they don't go out of their way to be snooty, and when they are, I bring it to their attention, I will say, Excuse me, that wasn't necessary, and by gosh they stop

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Of course I say something to him. I let him know in no uncertain terms that he was rude. And there are consequences for the rude behavior. When I said I don't bother arguing with him, it was in reference to my comment that he thinks he knows everything.</p>

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<p>If you don't give her any more allowance, so she'll "have" to get a job, but she's on a busy academic track...I wonder where that is going. If stopping allowance is part of your concept I understand, but she can't live without any cash so in a way she's forced out into the job. No boo-hooing, I'm just thinking it will only make her more high-handed. </p>

<p>Can you reinstate allowance but tie it to chores and expected standards of behavior (such as more appropriate kitchen cleanup)? And tell her that it might be a lot easier for her to simply improve her domestic act in return for allowance than to tear out for X hours a week at a min-wage job during senior year. If she sees it as a choice (fold clothes at Mall vs. be more forthcoming at home and get allowance), she might choose to become allowance-worthy, since it's so much easier on HER to do so.</p>

<p>On the cooking, maybe it's time to reorient the whole understanding. She likes to cook, and that's a wonderful skill. But if she doesn't "like" what the others eat, how does that give her the right to make her own food at the expense of your evening (cleanup). Some approaches: tell her she's such a great cook that you want her to be the cook for everyone on certain days. Tell her that the best cooks clean up as they go, and work with her a few times to demonstrate; it's actually a bit advanced and I see many college kids at food coops cook like madmen and leave tons of pots; they haven't gotten their moves down to multi-task the way an experienced cook would. So, just tell her this is how you bring it up to the next level as a good cook, and you'll work with her a few times until she gets the hang of it (setting up soap water to catch the spatulas, etc.; finding the odd moment between sauteeing to quick-wash a pot; etc.).
Then tell her when she's the family cook (say 2 meals weekly) she may also choose the entire menu and shop the ingredients. She's developing a valuable skill there, to cook, just needs to have it harnessed into family life a bit better. </p>

<p>That's for the chores. I share with others a zero-tolerance for disrespectful tone. "You may not speak to me like that" is your line. It's non-negotiable. If my kids are angry I let them bang around their rooms a bit, but they really can't speak to me or about me like I'm dirt.</p>

<p>When we proposed restructuring (August is a good month for this) we'd always present the plan, and why it would be "so" much better for them along with the expectation we're holding them to, but then just let them consider it a few days. My H has this great line at the end of difficult discussions, "Think about it.. and get back to us in a day or so" because that puts the ball in their court and dignifies them.
"Think about it..." shows you know it's hard for them; it's kind in a way.</p>

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<p>oregionionmom, my whole post wasn;t about you, sorry if it came across that way, and i know you are telling your son you don't like his behavior</p>

<p>it just drive me bonkers when other parents say it normal, its okay, it expected for their children to be rude, well, no it is not</p>

<p>why let a D be mean to a mom for 3 YEARS!!! that makes no sense whatsoever</p>

<p>that is when mom stops doing- laundry, shopping, etc- why do for a brat?</p>

<p>I don't understnad that logic of let them be mean because they are "emerging adults' that is rubbish, they are human beings who need to have courtesy, manners and respect for their fellow humans and especially families</p>

<p>I am not saying they need to agree with, or not negotiate, or just be sheep, and I am not saying mom needs to know everyones business all the time, but I am saying that rude, lazy, cruel and snooty attitudes are expected from a 2 or 7 year old, not a 17 year old who expects to be treated as an independent person</p>

<p>that needs to be earned</p>

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<p>Spidey- Sounds like you are living with my D's twin! I don;t know about you or anyone else but she is exhausting!!</p>

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<p>Citygirlsmom: “SO your D is cutting her nose off to spite her face”</p>

<p>That would be a perfect analysis of the situation. Yup, she is setting new records for stubbornness!</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom “The friends not coming over, stick with that, but she can't just go off either”</p>

<p>I think you are right, but that is a tough one. She has gotten grounded so much, and is just even more intolerable around the house when it happens. It ends up being that we are all grounded with her!</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom “I have "talked" to my kids in front of their friends if they have been rude”</p>

<p>I just did this yesterday for the first time in a long time. I am not sure if it will help, but it sure felt good to stand up for myself. :)</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom “I think it is time to sit your D down, and as school is just starting, it is a perfect time to set parameters- your jobs on her behalf, her expectations and your, food, time, responsibilities, etc.And tell her this is not a negotiable conversation, it will happen, and here are the two time options, pick one, and her behavior is unacceptable and you want to be very clear on what you, as the parent and a household member expect...and that she is to come to the table with what she wants, needs, will contribute, etc”</p>

<p>I do like the idea that it is a new year and to reestablish a game plan. BTW, we have had sit downs, family meetings, etc. forever , and this kid weasels out of every plan or commitment one way or another. She has absolute contempt for any means of controlling her (yet is capable of great achievements when left alone – too bad a family home environment is not the place for a teen to go their own way).</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom: “I am not saying we have to get in all their business, but if they want to have some privacy and be treated with respect, they darn well better behave that way towards others, if they don't they don't deserve their space, they deserve to be treated like toddlers”</p>

<p>Words of wisdom. I’ll take it. In fact, this line just inspired me to take away her Ipod just now for again being disrespectful. She can have it back when she is ready to be a little more civil. BTW, the source of the current wave of resentment is that she just this week lost being taken on a huge trip to Europe at the end of August because she broke rules and was disrespectful many times (ignoring multiple warnings). So now, it appears, for her this is war.</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom: “I don't understnad that logic of let them be mean because they are "emerging adults' that is rubbish, they are human beings who need to have courtesy, manners and respect for their fellow humans and especially families”</p>

<p>This is really true. </p>

<p>Citygirlsmom: “If she doesn't like your food, she can clean up her mess, what does she say about just leaving it like that?”</p>

<p>She agrees and says she will clean up after herself, does it once or twice, then blows it off. She then gets really nasty when confronted about it. Also, she received great reviews for cleaning up after herself when away from home for much of a summer once a few years back. I guess we are just not the recipients of her charming side when it comes to chipping in. She also gets the nicest compliments from teachers and others outside the home. I know it's better for her to let off steam with us, but seriously sometimes teenagers (at least this one, anyway) getting ready to leave for college can just make the homefront pretty intolerable for everyone else.</p>

<p>Midwestener: “She sounds like she is out-of-balance with something, maybe stress or hormones. Back off for a few days, and start reintroducing favors gradually, based on her past actions. Saying, for example, "When that egg pan is cleaned I can give you a ride," will let her know what's expected.”</p>

<p>I’m taking this advice as well.</p>

<p>Scout59, I could have written that myself not that long ago. Then the nice kid disappeared again (and the one who replaced her is worse than ever). :(</p>

<p>Paying3tuitions: “If you don't give her any more allowance, so she'll "have" to get a job, but she's on a busy academic track...I wonder where that is going. If stopping allowance is part of your concept I understand, but she can't live without any cash so in a way she's forced out into the job. No boo-hooing, I'm just thinking it will only make her more high-handed. </p>

<p>Can you reinstate allowance but tie it to chores and expected standards of behavior (such as more appropriate kitchen cleanup)? And tell her that it might be a lot easier for her to simply improve her domestic act in return for allowance than to tear out for X hours a week at a min-wage job during senior year. If she sees it as a choice (fold clothes at Mall vs. be more forthcoming at home and get allowance), she might choose to become allowance-worthy, since it's so much easier on HER to do so.”</p>

<p>Your are right. I need to make a better plan for the money thing. I am so mad at her right now that it is really difficult to negotiate. But I am going to do it tomorrow. Regarding tying to standards of behavior and chores, she just blows it every week. Seriously – you just wouldn’t believe it. Again, I can only describe it as complete hatred for any attempts to get her in line. This is one wild horse who is hard to train. I need a horse whisperer!</p>

<p>4giggles: “Sounds like you are living with my D's twin! I don;t know about you or anyone else but she is exhausting!!”</p>

<p>Yeah, that is an understatement. I am glad you still have your giggles!</p>

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<p>Sophomore here. And I even I hate the nit-picking :). But once I made that clear to my parents, they've given me a lot more space. Thank god! :D</p>

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<p>My "visiting" college-age student has a terrible habit of dropping stuff on the floor and leaving it. He also likes to sleep in, which is OK with me, but I get miffed when I wake up in the morning and have to pick up the mess he's left behind in the family room the night before while I was sleeping.</p>

<p>My new rule- whatever is out from the night before will be picked up by HIM in the morning. I wake him up when I get up (which can be at the crack of dawn), and he comes downstairs to pick everything up. He can then go back to bed. After doing this a couple times, he realized he would have uninterrupted sleep if he just picked everything up before he went to bed. (Duhh!)</p>

<p>I told him we were going to do this, because I was tired of being cranked off and tired of nagging. He agreed, and goes along with it without complaint (when he forgets to pick up). It's working so far.</p>

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<p>we sometimes "nitpick" because we expect more from out young adults than we did when they were 15....we shouldn't have to ask for help, we shouldn't have to ask for a conversation, we shouldn't have to ask for you to pick up after yourself, we shouldn't have to remind you to call and check in, we shouldnt have to...you get my point</p>

<p>often what you see as nitpicking is us asking you to do something that should have been done, and if not done, then we have to clean up the mess- </p>

<p>so if you don't want the nitpicking, look at your self a bit more and see what part you are playing in your parents' frustration</p>

<p>tetrisfan, did you step up and act more mature when you made it clear to your parents? I wonder</p>

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<p>OP, I want to also give you a big applause and support since this is obviously so difficult and ennervating for you. You are really doing your best with a challenging kid. So there.</p>

<p>Since I'm in the mood for offering sage wisdom, which sounds better than it works sometimes: when I'm in a big power struggle, which is what sounds like in your home, I think this way. GO COUNTER-INTUITIVE. Put down the rope; stop the tug of war. Make it less about "me versus you" and more about: this isn't working for EITHER of us. Let's get on the same side of the rope and look across the rope at the problem we both face. Neither of us is getting along. It's not working. OUR problem is the division of labor isn't well-aligned, and we're angry at each other. We both share this problem. How can WE solve it.</p>

<p>Then work as a team to write down everything that's not working. You have your list (dishes, various chores) and she has hers (too much interrogation, and whatever else she comes up with). Don't argue., just list everyone's individual complaints.</p>

<p>Then can come the negotiation. For everything you agree to (fewer questions on minor details), she has to agree to something. You're smart so outfox her by looking actively in her list for little things you can "give" on and then ask for a biggie in return, but write them on a line as if they are on par.</p>

<p>See if your H or someone adult can sit in to keep the negotiation fair.</p>

<p>I don't envy you but I do applaud you. She needs a firm hand now, but acknowledge that you are two toughies and it's time to work something out so you both enjoy the coming year more.</p>

<p>If she's belligerent, just shut down the meeting because she'll only improve her own options if she deigns to negotiate with you for a full package. I think from all you've described you need to put it ALL together, rather than solve it piece by piece.</p>

<p>You can pretend to be jovial and on-team but really you're taking control. I think she can be fooled into this. I'd have my coffee and Excedrin close at hand.</p>

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<p>Spidey-
All I can say is hang in there and don't change your mind because she is making you miserable. Rewarded behavior gets repeated. Look for the tiniest things she is doing correct and praise her, but don't give in to the war.</p>

<p>One thing I do know about teens, regardless of how they act, they want M & D's approval, and they care about how they look to others. You could try asking her how she thinks her behavior makes you feel and what she thinks she is portraying as a human being with her actions.</p>

<p>A child therapist I once heard give a talk gave a good example of how to keep sane and deal with issues without the push-pull of battle. This was regarding a D who was doing very poorly in school just to be a challenge:
Report card comes, mom opens it, it is bad (Ds & Fs), she puts it down somewhere visible so D knows she has seen it, but goes about her own business with no reaction, until D brings up the report card. Then she simply says, "I just want you to know I will still love you when you repeat this grade." To which the D replied indignantly, "I will NOT be repeating this grade!" Mom's final words are, "Well, that's up to you now isn't it? Regardless, I will still love you." End of discussion, walk away, let go of the rope in the tug of war.</p>

<p>We cannot force our kids to do things, but we can be clear about our own boundaries. Perhaps you can think about some natural consequences and state them as facts, adapt this scenario to fit what is going on with her.</p>

<p>The trip is the hardest, I had to do that once when my D was much younger. I went on the trip anyway myself and bawled like a baby when I pulled out of the driveway because half an hour before I left she wrote this long letter of apology. I explained that while I was grateful and accepted her apology, there had to be consequences and she had lost the trip. It was a turning point for her.</p>

<p>Stand strong, often the hardest thing to do is the right thing, especially when we are hardwired to love and nurture them so much.</p>

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<p>Sorry-cross posted with 3tuitions (wow 3 tuitions! That is even painful to write that phrase - LOL)</p>

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<p>Doubleplay: : “After doing this a couple times, he realized he would have uninterrupted sleep if he just picked everything up before he went to bed. (Duhh!)”</p>

<p>Words of wisdom, Doubleplay. Making a teen get out of bed is something, I have found, which is powerful stuff! I will be borrowing this, for sure, to solve the dishes dilemma.</p>

<p>Paying3tuitions: “OP, I want to also give you a big applause and support”…</p>

<p>I’m taking it – thank you P3T!</p>

<p>Paying3tuitions:” when I'm in a big power struggle, which is what sounds like in your home, I think this way. GO COUNTER-INTUITIVE. Put down the rope; stop the tug of war. Make it less about "me versus you" and more about: this isn't working for EITHER of us. Let's get on the same side of the rope and look across the rope at the problem we both face. Neither of us is getting along. It's not working. OUR problem is the division of labor isn't well-aligned, and we're angry at each other. We both share this problem. How can WE solve it.”…</p>

<p>You know, I do know this stuff, but it does help big time to be reminded by other wise parents when in the middle of a power struggle.</p>

<p>Paying3tuitions:” For everything you agree to (fewer questions on minor details), she has to agree to something. You're smart so outfox her by looking actively in her list for little things you can "give" on and then ask for a biggie in return, but write them on a line as if they are on par.”…” You can pretend to be jovial and on-team but really you're taking control. I think she can be fooled into this. I'd have my coffee and Excedrin close at hand.”</p>

<p>The truth with this daughter is that she will agree to everything and then renege EVERY TIME. Also, she is brutally smart about seeing through any parental techniques. It is truly remarkable. Today my husband likened the situation to a never ending boxing match. Every day we get up, lace up our gloves and fight through. Then we go to sleep, get up, and do it all over again. Along the way, I guess we just need to maintain our sense of humor! In any case, we just need to follow good advice like the type you presented and keep at it.</p>

<p>Believersmom: : “End of discussion, walk away, let go of the rope in the tug of war.”</p>

<p>I do need to do this – I am going to recite this sentence in my head ten times! :)</p>

<p>Believersmom:”The trip is the hardest, I had to do that once when my D was much younger. I went on the trip anyway myself and bawled like a baby when I pulled out of the driveway because half an hour before I left she wrote this long letter of apology. I explained that while I was grateful and accepted her apology, there had to be consequences and she had lost the trip. It was a turning point for her”</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing. It helps to hear that someone else has done the tough love thing with a major trip and survived it. This was a painful decision for me, as I was really looking forward to a big mother-daughter trip through three spectacularly gorgeous European cities. Ouch. I would like to go alone to make a point (it is too late to plan it with a friend), but personally I wouldn't have fun solo. This young woman is possibly the funniest person I have ever met (she is like a reincarnation of Lucille Ball). She is the kind of kid who makes it hard to be the parent because she is so cool that you just want to hang out and be her friend. Of course, I am wiser than that. In any case, what fun we would have had. :(</p>

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<p>Try reading this -- Yes, Your Teen is Crazy!: Loving Your Kid Without Losing Your Mind. I ordered it from Amazon and it helped me remain sane this year. </p>

<p>
[quote]
We cannot force our kids to do things, but we can be clear about our own boundaries.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That advice is the place to start. Priority #1 is that mom has to be treated a certain way, like a human being. </p>

<p>It sounds like you are on the right track. She is a good kid, and will come around. Stick to your guns, esp. about the respect thing. We (my D and I) had some big time power struggles this year, but things are much better now. I ended up having to set some boundaries -- ones that are pretty obvious to everyone but an entitled feeling teen. It was ugly. But things are much better now. These things can be turned around.</p>