To bargain for scholarships? (Politely, of course)

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I usually manage to surrepticiously sneek in a "my matriculation into university is dependant on how much financial aid I am awarded" in an interview for a music school (not necessarily in those words). However, I was recently awarded an extremely significant scholarship to the vocal performance major to one of my prospective schools. Now, as I prepare for the rest of my music school auditions throughout January and February, I am wondering if it is appropriate to somehow mention to them in my interviews for these upcoming auditions that This School who has made me an incredible offer obviously wants me. "Do you want me that much too? Because you're not going to get me unless you top their offer."</p>

<p>Of course I would not ask in the manner that I just did! I'm trying to get the point across.</p>

<p>To bargain, or not to bargain? </p>

<p>If bargaining is appropriate, how may I word it in a manner that is not presumptuous and snobby? :)</p>

<p>("..." = hypothetical quotes)</p>

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<p>A previous thread here <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/448632-negotiate-better-scholarships.html?highlight=scholarships[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/448632-negotiate-better-scholarships.html?highlight=scholarships&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Depending on exactly which school “This school” is that has already awarded you the substantial scholarship, you may or may not have a lot of bargaining power up-front. Talent based awards on contingent upon pecking order within the particular audition pool, and while you may have been at the top in one pool, you may be up against some stronger fields at some of your other options. Also, some awards are a combo of merit/talent/stats based parameters, and sometimes it’s difficult to assess what percentages are from where.</p>

<p>Your negotiating power is more realistic when you have ALL offers in hand.</p>

<p>It doesn’t hurt to mention a substantial offer, but it can work both for and against you. Some schools “spread the wealth” and offer lesser amounts to a greater number, some give the big bucks to the most promising, and paltry allocations to the mid range. A school may or may not be able to match or better the offer of the competition under any circumstance, and may offer you less, assuming “why bother, there’s a better offer from Podunk, and it’s an offer the student can’t refuse, so let’s not waste time on this one”.</p>

<p>Without divulging the institution, you can do a title search on “scholarships” within this forum, and see if there is anecdotal info from specific schools which might help you assess potential awards from peer institutions.</p>

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<p>Because mentioning a specific school’s award to you could initially either work for or against you, I would be disinclined to mention the value of the award at the audition/interview stage. </p>

<p>Once you have all of your offers in hand, then I think that it is appropriate to mention dollar amounts of awards from specific schools. </p>

<p>Some schools do not adjust their offers, but other schools will especially once they get acceptances/refusals from the other students to whom they have made offers; for example, if their “top picks” all choose to go elsewhere, this can free up money for other applicants (or that money may just stay in the pot to cover other disciplines in which the school yielded a greater than anticipated percentage of top picks). </p>

<p>Certainly this is a judgement call. If during a lesson/audition/interview, a faculty member made it very clear that they wanted you and specifically asked what it would take to get you, then it would make sense to say that they would need to offer a financial package that was similar to/better than one you already had. If they asked how much that is, then I would be inclined to tell them. However, I would probably not be the person to raise the issue of the value of any awards I had already received.</p>

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<p>We did the bargaining after all acceptances and awards were in and DD had a clear favorite. We only worked with them about what it would take to go to her clear first choice and the caparison with her second choice, similar type school. This process did not seem to be a surprise to them. They came through with extra funds and she is there. We did not try to increase all offers.</p>

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<p>iV- did you apply ED? If so, then I can understand learning of a substantial financial award this early in the season, and in that case, you are bound to attend that school anyway, but to the best of my knowledge, the major schools do not give those out until all students have been heard and discussed. Perhaps your school has rolling admissions…
Alright, you have the official letter (and always make sure that anything regarding $$ is in print), and still have more auditions to go. Stand back and take a few minutes to breate- you’ve done well and are assured of going to college! The advice the “dads” have given you is excellent. I am not at all sure that you should tell any school the exact amount another has given you. You can do the math- take the cost of each school(including room,board,travel,etc) and then deduct the amount each school has given you which will equal the cost to attend. If one school’s financial aid package is huge in comparison to the others, then in today’s economy, it’s unlikely that the others will be able to come up with enough to match it. Let’s assume, then, that you have 4 schools, all of which you like and would be comfortable attending, but you like “C” just a bit more and the package they’ve offered you comes up about $7K less than the vicinity of what the others have come up with. You have a short time to make your decision, so begin your discussion as soon as you have everything in front of you. E-mail is the best way to conduct negotiations as you have a paper trail to use. Send a note to the Dir. of FA explaining that their school, “School C”, is really the place you want to spend the next 4 years, but other schools where you auditioned have offered you more money. Ask if she/he can do anything to make it possible for you to attend “School C”. You will either hear a flat, “That’s all we can do, sorry”, or " We don’t “negotiate, sorry”. In all likelihood, take that answer and make your decision accordingly. Maybe you can deal with more loans or apply for some more local awards to bridge the gap. You’re more likely to be told, “I’ll see what I can do”. Most schools have committees who make the award decisions and requests for additional aid will be presented to them, but you’ll hear back soon. By this time, the schools are as anxious to have this all over as you are!
Of course, there are many variables when it comes to awarding $$, some of which violadad mentoned, and some can change from year to year. At some colleges, belt-tightening has been severe. If a school had a lot invested in funds which did badly or collapsed, it stands to reason that there won’t be as much available for student aid- that may be the first thing to be cut back. Even families with a zero EFC are being told that the student and family have to take loans, apply for work-study positions (not enough of those to go around any more) and pay the difference in monthly installments.
I’ve said a lot more than you inquired, but I think it’s all interconnected. Having as much informantion as possible can help you to maximize the amount of the awards. Just always remember to say only as much as you absolutely need to and to be polite and honest.If all the schools are equal in your mind and money is truly the deciding factor, try not to let that sentiment get through- everyone loves to be loved! But, if you really love “School C”, let them know it, it could tip the scales in your favor!</p>

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<p>I am confused by this. Do prospective vocal performance majors generally have interviews on the audition date? (I know that music ed applicants have interviews, but I did not know performance majors did). Who would be doing the interview? </p>

<p>I really think it is inappropriate to mention anything about scholarships offered by a school until the student is accepted to other schools and then this could be done to possibly help negotiate a higher award at one of the other schools. </p>

<p>Even if someone at the audition asked something on the line of “where else are you applying,” I think it is NOT appropriate to bring up the scholarship offer from the other school until the offers of admission are in. I think it would be ok to say, “I am auditioning to Peabody, NEC and Northwestern, and I have been accepted to Juilliard”, but NOT “I have been accepted to Juilliard and they have offered me a large scholarship.”</p>

<p>I know of students who were accepted to, say, Eastman but not NEC, or Oberlin but not Peabody, etc. I do not think that NEC’s knowing a student was offered xxx dollars by Eastman or Peabody’s knowing that a student was offered xxx dollars by Oberlin would have made a difference in admission to the other schools. </p>

<p>But AFTER the student is admitted and gets scholarship offers, it seems reasonable to try to negotiate. </p>

<p>In adult terms, I would not go to a job interview and mention how much I was being offered at another job to which I had been offered elsewhere. My goal would be to show the potential employer why I would be a good fit for their company, show them why they would want to hire me over all the other applicants. Once I got an offer, I could use offers from other jobs to negotiate salary and benefits. </p>

<p>I am involved in helping to choose new professional staff at my job from time to time and we would find it a real negative if anyone came in mentioning what they had been offered at other places before we had made an offer ourselves. </p>

<p>Maybe it is different for applicants to vocal performance programs, but I would be careful since there are so many people auditioning. </p>

<p>And to anyone who is reading this, please do not respond in terms of the particular schools I mentioned, I do know of situations like this, but I kind of mixed them up in order to make a point.</p>

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<p>Violadad—Thank you for the thread link! I was searching the forum for a topic like mine, but I did not find this one. I see your point about audition pools. I agree that it would be better to begin negotiation when all offers are in my hands. I think it is so funny, yet legitimate, that different music schools have such diverse personalities; One program might “spread the wealth” while another puts the most aid in what they believe to be their most promising students. Thank you for your insight.</p>

<p>Violindad—Waiting for all of the offers to arrive does seem like the best idea. I would not be the one to raise the dollar amount first ever, of course (Unless the question is presented to me). I see what you mean when you say that it is a judgment call. </p>

<p>Singersmom—What method did you use to bargain? Was it through phone, email, or formal letters? Did you communicate with the music school/conservatory’s financial people or the university’s financial advisors? Thank you for sharing your DD’s experience!</p>

<p>Mezzo’sMamma—I applied early action, which is not the same as early decision; I am not bound to attend the school, but I was promised to receive notification of acceptance/award earlier than regular decision. I believe my school does have rolling admission. Whoever auditions first (and who they want) gets the slot and the scholarship. | You’re right! I totally have my foot in the door for college! While that is assuring and takes some of the pressure off, it is no excuse for me to get off my guard; I still must perform better than I ever have for my auditions and, of course, keep practicing! (These are notes for myself  I totally agree with you!) Thank you for all of your knowledgeable information! Yes—honesty and politeness are a necessity. Everyone does love to be loved, and I believe that I can successfully articulate that fact to my top choice school.</p>

<p>Rigaudon—Like what was discussed earlier in this thread, different music schools have different personalities; while one school may have an audition and an interview together, another might have an audition and not require an interview. It all depends on where you audition/apply, and, I suppose, it depends on what your major is. As a vocal performance major auditioner, they let me know through email what my audition day was going to be like, and in the email they told me I would have an interview. With the school who has given me a greatly significant scholarship, I was interviewed (rather promptly) following my audition, and I was able to communicate to them what I wanted them to know about me, while expressing myself collegiately. The entire voice faculty conducted my interview after viewing my audition. </p>

<p>I’m definitely seeing the cockiness factor of discussing awarded scholarships at an audition/interview. At an audition, you try to sell yourself with talent, not business skills. I’m concluding that in my audition I need to convince them of my talent, not threaten them with scholarship offers! I’ll have all of the offers on the table before I begin polite negotiation. Thank you for your assistance, everyone!</p>

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<p>I am somewhat contrary to others on this topic. I did the negotiations myself with he director of admissions to the music school. Finances were my end. When the offers were in and DD had a clear first choice but they were not the top in numbers, I placed a call to the director and mentioned how much DD wanted to go there but that the merit award was just too much less than a comparable school. I provided the school and numbers. BTW - the comparable was NOT her best offer. Her best offer had come early in the audition process from a lower ranked school. We did not mention that one since it was not comparable. . The director listened and the next day called back with a revised number. They did not match the other offer, but it became close enough. (The studio professor apparently really wanted her, too). </p>

<p>Others have used different techniques successfully.</p>

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<p>Each school has different policies with regard to how they conduct things on audition days and for VP majors, at least at the conservatories we’re familiar with, there were no interviews. One did have a “group interview” which consisted of my D, and two guys who were instrumental majors with a member of the school’s administration, who asked all three kids to answer a few questions (the same for each). The other interview she had was conducted as part of a visit/lesson day that she had months before the actual audition. Often, after you sing, you may be asked if you have any questions, so I think it’s good to have something prepared if you’ve not spoken with anyone there before. If you’ve done your research, it also gives you the chance to show them that- again, they notice everything!
As far as conducting fiancial negotiations, my D used e-mail to initiate the contact after she had everything in hand and then it continued both in that form and phone contact and I also became involved. It was all completed within 3 days. We dealt exclusively with the Director of Financial Aid. I am not 100% certain, but I would think that you should be dealing with the office who sent you the award letter. Generally that is within the conservatory/music school, even if you had to be admitted to the academic side also.
iV, I’d like to compliment you on your ability to articulate your questions and describe your situation while using good grammar and spelling. All too often that is not the case. You sound like a wonderful, self possessed young woman whom I am sure will be an asset to whichever school you select. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Hey iV,</p>

<p>Just like to reiterate that the wheeling and dealing is expected from us, but it shouldn’t happen until all your acceptances and award letters are on the table. You don’t want financial issues clouding an audition, which should be about your artistic capabilities and promise. Furthermore, many faculty do not like getting involved directly with students’ finances. Sure they’ll wrangle with the FinAid people internally, but they do not like to speak with students or their parents about money as they feel it clouds the teacher-student relationship, which again should be focused on artistic matters. It’s kind of a “my people will talk to your people” situation. </p>

<p>But oh how you guys make US squirm, once we’ve decided we love you and want you at our schools. This is the main difference between January and April. So yes we expect you to let us know if you feel the scholarship isn’t quite what you were hoping for. Some times there is wiggle room, some times the max was given the first time around. It never hurts to try. </p>

<p>Finally, my definition of a “safety” school is a place that you could genuinely feel happy attending. While not as selective as your “dream” or “reach” schools, you’re putting in your application because you do consider them to be a viable option at some level. If you end up only admitted to (or in your case, only able to afford) this one school, it should be one you would be happy attending. Maybe not ecstatic, jumping up and down excited, but still you could make lemonade with the situation. Otherwise it’s not really a safety school. </p>

<p>And I’ll second what MezzoMama said–complete sentences do come in handy on this forum. Buona fortuna!</p>

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<p>^ Wasn’t BuonaFortuna the undertaker who had to do the Godfather a service? Or was that Bonaserra? ;)</p>

<p>N8, if we could count on “offers we couldn’t refuse”, there would be no need to negotiate.</p>

<p>As said, it doesn’t hurt to try after all the cards are on the table. Sometimes there’s room for movement.</p>

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<p>Just leave it at “Buona notte…” !</p>

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<p>I’d like to see Mike Manderen’s Marlon Brando impersonation. And I hear William Fay does Al Pacino quite well :)</p>

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<p>I don’t like to tell the school the other schools my son was applying to. Let alone what scholarships offers he has received.</p>

<p>First of all, the dollar amount of the scholarship is relatively meaningless. The Net Cost to Attend is the meaningful number. Let’s say you get a $25,000 scholarship from a school with a COA of $50,000, and a $10,000 scholarship from a school with a COA of $35,000. Which is better?</p>

<p>Do not negotiate until you have the offers. Typically, the Admissions Office (AO) is separate from (but closely works with) the Financial Aid Office. Mentioning your other offers can come across as bragging, may give the AO a negative impression, and make the difference between you an someone else.</p>

<p>Once you have your offers, you can then rank them, and decide on a negotiation strategy. No need to put schools through the work if you have little likelihood of attending. If your top choice is $25,000 Net COA, and your 2nd choice is $10,000 Net COA, then let the top choice know. Maybe your top choice is $10,000, and your 4th choice is free. If the 4th choice is otherwise highly rated (competitor of the school), then that might give the top choice school a reason to better their offer.</p>

<p>During interviews/auditions, if the topic does come up (we would like your son, etc.), then I just mention that financial aid will be an issue. Not many people can afford $50,000/yr, so that is enough to let them know they have to sharpen their pencils, without being in their face.</p>

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<p>Just bumping this thread for this years’ applicants. A few more weeks to go, everyone. Hold tight!</p>

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<p>This year FA awards will be significantly reduced if you are a candidate for loans/grants backed by the government, so do your research before you begin negotiations. Buried by all of the smoke-and-mirrors commotion surrounding health care reform, Perkins loans were eliminated along with several other programs- the govt’s explanation is that people haven’t been able to pay them back (duh, those are the same people who have lost jobs or who have been unable to find them to begin with), so they won’t be continuing to award them.Another part of their supporting argument is that the “federal stimulus money” makes up for the absence of the other programs, but to the best of my knowledge, no money was awarded directly to individuals under this administration (I’m not taking sides, I dislike politicians of any party!), so that comment seems disingenuous at best. Make sure you know if any state awards can be taken to out-of-state schools (NY won’t permit that), and know that the FAFSA EFC can be completely disregarded, which can leave you miles apart in what is awarded and what you can afford.</p>

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<p>Is 12k from CCM something good or do they usually give more to people ?
They told me they might give more but it’s really a “might” since the scholarships are quite competitive. I can’t have any need-based scholarships since it’s only for nationals. Does anyone know when they release final decisions ?</p>

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<p>I’m pretty sure CCM doesn’t officially release scholarship information till April 1…but i think you can check it online then. How do you know what you might get already?</p>

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<p>OK thanks. They sent me the scholarship letter back in January or so.</p>

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<p>Bassplayer08–12k is a great scholarship for CCM. Congratulations!</p>