To Christians

<p>There's no way you can answer them either.</p>

<p>I think believing in God out of fear is one of the absolute worst reasons ever. Besides, if you only believe because you're afraid you might end up in Hell if you don't, you're not really a believer anyway.</p>

<p>Some people need a religon to guide them. Some people have lost everything and religon is all they have left. Religon could be a time to relax for the person. Some people want to accentuate the positive and some people want to live in peace and harmony when they die. People have religon for many reasons.</p>

<p>Have any of you watched Bill Moyer's Faith and Reason series? If you didn't, I urge you to. </p>

<p>We humans are tormented creatures, conceived of flesh, fraught with pain. We live in a realm of dualism, where that if we survive hell on earth, our reward will be salvation in paradise, whether one is christian or atheist, pagan or righteous. That's right. I said atheist or pagan. It is our nature to find redemption from our pain, to transcend, in other words, find salvation. That pain can be in ourselves, from the secular world, from war, from loss. Whether we find refuge in heaven or in ourselves, in the company of strangers or the love of family, we humans will always seek salvation. And that's it. After that, everything is trivial. Everything is simply decoration. And god is part of that decoration. </p>

<p>If you really wanted to know, god is in ourselves because in the end of the day that's who finds it within themselves to perservere, supernatural intervention or not. Why do we look to the heavens ? Why do we look to science? Because it's our nature. Life is too scary to go at it alone. So, with our idols, we find hope to navigate this treacherous terrain.</p>

<p>Honestly, I don't know why I believe in a higher power. The whole essence of faith is deluded, In fact, I can't even say that I truly believe, but that I feel. I'm not a missionary. I don't talk god. Only that everyday I wake up with a simple intent, to be a better person than I was yesterday. Isn't that good enough?</p>

<p>
[quote]
We live in a realm of dualism, where that if we survive hell on earth, our reward will be salvation in paradise, whether one is christian or atheist, pagan or righteous.

[/quote]

Not exactly hell. For a example: taking AP classes is hard, somesports are painful -- but people who're athletes or taking AP classes aren't masochists aren't they? Same applies to christianity -- christians don't necessarily live bitter (from their point) life, just as those, quoting, - Crazy masochists taking 12 APs, - aren't living bitter life.</p>

<p>lol...brings up a joke</p>

<p>Two people are sharing a room. One is a masochist, the other is a sadist. The sadist says "I have a whip, and I'm not going to use it."</p>

<p>
[quote]
How can you deny there is a God though?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>THERE IS NO GOD. THERE IS NO GOD. THERE IS NO GOD. </p>

<p>Like that. I just did.</p>

<p>My pastor always talked about how he knew FOR SURE that he was going to heaven. and i know a couple of people like this. but when i ask "How do you know 100%? You've never seen death. How can you be so certain?"</p>

<p>and then they would respond "Because the Bible says so." or "Because i just know."</p>

<p>well, to everyone here who believes in a god, how do you know FOR SURE that one really exists? and please give an answer different from the ones above.</p>

<p>i won't deny there is a God, because i don't know. i do think that there is a "higher power", but like a typical agnostic, i don't know that for sure either.</p>

<p>I haven't read any of the above. I'm supposedly Christian (by my choice), but as most teens do, I'm rethinking everything.</p>

<p>I know there is a God. The world is too perfect to not have one. The earth spins at a 23 degree tilt. If that were off even half a degree, seasons would go crazy and life would be screwed.</p>

<p>Besides. If I showed you a model of the solar system (nevermind the galaxy or, you know, the universe...) and told you that I saw it randomly come together, that it didn't have a creator, would you believe me?
How much more impressive is the actual solar system from a measly model of it?</p>

<p>eternity in the heart of every man... that he would be without excuse.</p>

<p>One cannot infer the existence of God just because nature is "perfect". </p>

<p>How do we know make any judgements? How do we know that when one drops a bowling ball off of a tower, it will fall and not fly away? How do we know that eating bread will cause a hungry man to feel full? How do we know that reacting sodium with chloride makes table salt?</p>

<p>We know from experience. We observe the way the universe is (the effects), and then try to see what the causes of these effects are. All of our science consists in correlating our observations of effects with observations of possible causes.</p>

<p>Now, the argument from Intelligent Design (the argument that the universe is so perfectly fine-tuned it must be created by a higher being) says that God is the cause of the universe. God is the cause, the universe is the effect. We only directly observe the "effect", which is the universe. We have never observed the cause. We have never observed a new universe form, we have never seen a God cause a universe. Thus, we have no experience to go on here. Suppose you see a cannonball at the base of a tall tower. Just because you saw the cannonball at the base of the tower does not mean that the cannonball was dropped from the tower. Just looking at an effect (in this case the cannonball on the ground) is not enough to infer the cause (that someone dropped it from the tower). In order to make such a declaration (that the cannonball was dropped from the tower), one would need evidence showing some one dropping the cannonball (the cause). </p>

<p>No one has ever observed a universe being caused by a God, no one has ever placed a God in a test tube and seen whether a new universe is created. Thus, we have only observed the "effect" (the universe), we have never seen the cause (God) Thus, we cannot infer that the universe must follow from God, even though it is perfectly fine tuned. </p>

<p>This argument largely follows from the work of 18th-century English philosopher David Hume. I give him credit for the original idea.</p>

<p>KABOOM.
the big bang was sweet.</p>

<p>because i do
end of story</p>

<p>Why do we need to know the "cause" of everything? Lack of certain proof has never gotten in the way of any sort of knowledge, scientific or otherwise. For example, no one has ever seen an electron orbiting a nucleus. But through reason and observation, we infer. If we see a crater or indentation in the ground by the cannonball, we can infer that it came from the top of the building. Christians simply see the world, with all of its good things, and all of its bad, and see the underlying "love" that really does connect it all. We still acknowledge the randomness, but (attempt) to see it through the eyes of God. When you do that, all the random stuff starts to come together to make sense, and as you keep looking at things through that lens, you see more and more that God is at work. It's a much less grumpy way of looking at things.
That being said, what caused things like morality? That's something that is very counterintuitive to evolutionary selection. There's also the issue of a guy who livedabout 2000 yers ago and went around curing people. There are some undeniable truths that, when taken as a whole, make a lot of sense, things that you have to search for, and are the things that make Christians believe what they do.</p>

<p>Here's my line of thinking: There's no god. End of story.</p>

<p>Quoting me.duh:</p>

<p>"I know there is a God. The world is too perfect to not have one. The earth spins at a 23 degree tilt. If that were off even half a degree, seasons would go crazy and life would be screwed."</p>

<p>While it may be true that the world is "perfect" (while even that is arguable) It is also true that there are literally BILLIONS of other planets out there that aren't perfect. It just seems that probability would dictate that 1 in the billions of planets would be ideal for sustaining life.</p>

<p>...It's kind of strange that this thread is directed only at Christians, given that there are many other religions out there, each with their own god(s). If I were a member of another religion, I'd be feeling pretty neglected and sad.</p>

<p>That said, I do not believe in a God. I figure I've been doing fine without acknowledging him/her/it so far, and until I actually see him/her/it, I'll just keep on not believing in one. I'm one of those people who needs to see it to believe it.</p>

<p>Once the Messiah comes and walks on my pool without the cover, I'll be damn impressed.</p>

<p>I think religion has its good points. It has some nice morals and stuff, and I think that if we stripped it of the crazy rituals and other things that really have very little to do with the actual basis of the religion, it'll all be much better.</p>

<p>I am a Christian and I have absolutely no problem saying so. I have unshakable faith. </p>

<p>However, it seems that many are out there not to find out if there is a God, but rather to prove to those who believe that there isn't one. For those who would like my so called "proof" as to why I personally know that God exists, please PM me, especially those who lost faith over the years. Open minds are all that is required. For those who choose to attack, rather then listen (note simply listen, not forcibly accept) and want to show me that I am wrong, do not ask ME for proof about YOUR question. Prove to ME that YOU are absolutely correct in every way. Prove to me that you have searched every square inch of the universe and know for a fact that God does not exist. I have faith and all the proof I need, and you have science. So use science to prove to me that there is absolutely no chance of a God. Try and you shall see that you cannot. If you cannot prove yourself right, then why bother questioning others?</p>

<p>So he exists until it is proven he doesn't exist?
Isn't this the same logic as calling someone guilty until they are proven innocent? Saying an event happened, until it is proven it hasn't.</p>

<p>Why are you guys so concerned with proving the other side wrong? If you believe in God, thats cool. If not, thats cool too. It's entirely your decision. Arguing about it only makes the individual's decision seem less valid. Just go with what you believe.</p>