<p>2dsdad, do not let me stop you from establishing your own definitions for ad hominem, suggestions, impressions. or whatever ejamacate might mean.</p>
<p>Here is a good link to show how different IB schools operate around the world.</p>
<p>That said, all the students are assessed in the same manner. Some of the assessment is internal. But most is external.</p>
<p>2dsdad:</p>
<p>I think the biggest issue is one of quality control. Whether it is AP or IB, exams are used as quality control mechanisms. In France, the bac, upon which the IB is modeled, is closely tied to the national curriculum and, in teaching that national curriculum, teachers teach to the test, with all the pros and cons associated with this description.
Still, there is a huge variation in success. My brother was unhappy with the 30% pass rate at the lycée in his working class/middle-class neighborhood and put his daughter in a private school that boasts a 100% pass-rate.<br>
I never heard of predicted scores until I read about the IB. And, as I posted earlier, no college plans can be formulated until the actual scores are in hand.</p>
<p>As introduced into US high schools, the IB varies enormously in terms of quality of implementation. Yet, American colleges do not use actual exam scores in their admission decisions, and perhaps not even predicted scores. They only go by the fact that an applicant is enrolled in the IB program in making their decisions. (Credit for IB is decided after the student has matriculated, as is the case for AP credit)</p>
<p>The rapid expansion of IB curricula in underperforming schools raise concerns insofar as it is unclear whether the teaching corps is well trained and competent and the students well prepared for its rigors. From my limited experience of discussions to introduce an IB school into our community, the IB was indeed seen as a way to improve teaching and raise standards at one underperforming school. I believe there were two main considerations in play: the IB had a ready-made curriculum and thus a complete roadmap for instruction in grades 6-12, so the school did not have to research what to teach at each separate grade; although the IB curriculum did not really start until high school, there would be a pre-IB program in the middle school (6-8) to prepare the students for IB. In turn this would force the earlier grades to improve. </p>
<p>I suspect that this kind of reasoning was used in the districts that introduced IB (ours in the end gave up because too many other changes were occuring at the time). But absent good teachers with a real grasp of the IB curriculum and philosophy and absent well prepared students, the IB program will serve only a very small handful of students. It is expensive to run. It may or may not serve high schools very well.</p>
<p>Here is a school district that is introducing IB as part of broad upgrade of many aspects of their schools:
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/g2epu%5B/url%5D">http://tinyurl.com/g2epu</a></p>
<p>I don't know where they are getting the money but they are trying to improve their offerings on many fronts. IB gets only one paragraph in the whole article.</p>
<p>xiggi, let's not quibble about your v. my definition of ad hominem:</p>
<p>American Heritage Dictionary - adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.</p>
<p>"...seemingly wrapped up in the virtues of a program that purports to have a "global" scope... you may want to shed a few provincial views. "</p>
<p>Wrapped up? Provincial? Yeah, I would say that qualifies as ad hominem.</p>
<p>Ejamacate? Educate. Humor. You have heard of it (humor, that is)? I was responding to your condescending comment that implied I was uninformed about the program that my daughters have been involved with for the past seven years and that I needed to read up (ejumacate) myself on it.</p>
<p>I realize that posters responding to your query about the value of IB are merely students in IB or parents of students. Personally I have two daughters that are going through the IB program. We have lived in three different locations with the kids attending three different public school systems and one parochial school along the way. As such I can only add my own anecdotal reports of our kids' experience with the program to the discussion. Since you want to take this to a personal level, I will stop posting my narrow, parochial opinions and cede the field to the worldly, authoritative, childless college student with all the answers. I acknowledge I am not qualified to have an opinion.</p>
<p>2dsdad...for what its worth, I like reading your unqualified opinions and observations :-)....but of course I too am unqualified so I'm afraid it is a compliment without substance...</p>
<p>marite...as usual, you've hit the nail on the head. The IB done well works. Straining already strained resources to offer another program may not be the best choice for many US schools.</p>
<p>I have been quietly observing on this thread for a while now and I feel that it is OK for me to add my two-cents.</p>
<p>I have been doing IB for 7 years now. How, you may ask? I originally started in the IB Middle Years Program when I was in 6th grade. I was 11 years old. The Middle Years Program doesn't have tests, but you do have to perform a fair amount of extra work in every single one of your classes. For example, I had to be filmed participating in my sport, in addition to writing deep reflections of my practices, creating imaginary workouts for imaginary people to reflect my understanding of physical education at age 14, and keeping lengthy journals of my sports activities. And that was all for PE!! I only had to do 30 hours a year of community service, however, which seems miniscule compared to the 150 required CAS hours for IB Diploma. I also completed a "Personal Project" which is like the baby brother of an Extended Essay. For mine, I wrote a children's book. </p>
<p>Now I am a senior in high school and an IB Diploma candidate. Of my graduating class of 468, there are only 24 people completing IB Diploma. At the beginning of junior year, there were 58 people on the list who were anticipated to continue the IB Diploma track.</p>
<p>I believe that I have the right to assert my opinions concerning IB considering that I am fairly entrenched in it. </p>
<p>IT'S NOT THAT BAD.</p>
<p>Yes, I am stressed out occasionally. But I am not stressed out solely because of IB. I am stressed out because I am applying to college, I am in 6 IB courses, I am student-body vice-president, I participate in Debate tournaments nearly every weekend, I am heavily involved in at least 3 other clubs, I am a varsity swimmer, my parents are demanding, and I work 15 hours a week. No exaggeration.</p>
<p>I am one of 3 IB Diploma kids who plays a varsity sport. I am one of 2 who has a huge leadership position (one kid is senior class pres.). I am the only IB Diploma kid who has an after-school job.</p>
<p>And I am not the one who is the most stressed out by far. </p>
<p>IB Diploma in itself, however, is not as bad as it is made out to be. Yes, it's a lot of work. Yes, a lot of that work is difficult. Yes, the exams are hard to prepare for and no, we don't get as much college credit as AP kids do. The solution to that? Take both!</p>
<p>Last year I was in IB Psychology. As mentioned earlier in this board, the IB tests are entirely essay-based and have no multiple choice. The AP Test, despite its "essays," are virtually the opposite. Two weeks before the AP Psych test, my IB teacher gave us some packets to study.</p>
<p>I studied for two hours the night before the AP Psych test and got a 5.</p>
<p>A week or two later, I took the IB Psych test. My first part, which was two hours, produced 18 pages (9 front and back) of essays. My second day of the test produced another 7. With extremely cramped hands, an exhausted mind, and 25 pages worth of great essay, I received a 6 (out of 7) on my IB Psych test.</p>
<p>Someone posted about 70 posts ago about how she had been bored out of her mind in her first 10 years of schooling. I cannot relate more. For the first 11 years of my schooling I constantly found myself looking around my classrooms and wondering why I was being forced to learn things that I already knew how to do. Up until my sophomore or junior year of high school I had never TRULY been challenged by anything. And it wasn't because "I wasn't challenging myself." It was because things came easily, and there was nothing that I could do to change that.</p>
<p>TOK (Theory of Knowledge) is my favorite class this year. For the first time in my entire life in a public school system, I am being required to actually think. I am reading Plato. I am writing essays about the strenghts and weaknesses of belief and knowledge rather than writing essays about my summer vacation. And I am happy because of it.</p>
<p>I don't love IB. In fact, I don't even particularly like it. I think that there is a lot of subtle political propogation in IB, and I choose to ignore a lot of it. I sometimes believe that IB values my extensive vocabulary more so than my intelligence (and I apologize for sounding arrogant just then, I know I did), and that is OK. I can write well if that's what they want. </p>
<p>I am a bad example of an IB student. My EE was assigned last March. I procrastinated. And procrastinated. And procrastinated. In fact, my first rough draft was due last Friday, September 15. I wrote my entire EE (all 3997 words of it) on Friday morning, in about 6 hours.</p>
<p>And I turned it in, and the response from my "mentor" and English teacher? They knew it was a rush job, but they were proud because it was well-written. This is a flippant and arrogant way to look at IB, yes. And yes, I cannot procrastinate like that in college. And yes, this kind of behavior will come back and bite me someday. I am well aware of that. I am also aware of the fact that I spent 6 months NOT stressing about my EE and got the same response as all the kids who did spend 6 months stressing about it.</p>
<p>As for CAS hours? I never think about them.
Instead, I went to Nashville and spent a week working at an innercity Boys & Girls club for 8 hours every day and gave some kids who never get loved some loving. I went to the Texas-Mexico border and helped re-roof the house of a darling little man who spoke no English but was fluent in the language of gratitude. I went to the same trip the next summer, as a junior counselor, and herded little 13-year-olds up a ladder to a roof similar to the one I had re-roofed the year before, and I taught them how to line up shingles and how to hammer. I went to Marble Falls, TX, and designed and constructed a set of stairs for a family who had been leaping 4 feet into mud puddles for the past 16 years to get down from their porch. I went to Honduras, and taught 14-year-old kindergarten teachers how to teach their students, and I rode in the back of a pick-up truck for 7 hours straight to visit remote villages and serve.</p>
<p>And then I wrote up my CAS hours. And none of my CAS hours were futile or done for the purpose of fulfilling CAS.</p>
<p>This post is all over the place. I am currently running a 101 fever, so that may be part of the reason that I am clearly lacking lucidity. </p>
<p>IB is only bad if it governs your life. I have not and will not ever allow IB to be the most important thing in my life, and that's why it's not that bad.</p>
<p>So to all the parents who think their children won't live fun teenage years because of IB, I hate to say that I think you're mistaken. IB isn't the best-designed program, and it isn't probably the best way to spend time, but it additionally is not as bad as it is made out to be.</p>
<p>So from a girl who has done IB for 7 years (and has never contemplated suicide because of it), I am free to any questions from any parents anywhere about anything IB. I consider myself pretty well-informed.</p>
<p>2dsdad, feel free to reinvent the history of this thread as you please. As far as I am concerned, I'll stick to direct quotations.</p>
<p>
[quote]
By Dad
Given that you have taken shots at every argument advanced in favor of IB and similar programs and offered many arguments against it, you will have to forgive me if I am left with the impression that you do not see any value in it. </p>
<p>and my reply</p>
<p>2dsdad, it is your prerogative to read selectively, and it is mine not to discuss every single point in a Socratic way. However, for one who is seemingly wrapped up in the virtues of a program that purports to have a "global" scope, you may want to shed a few provincial views.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As I said in my earlier reply, you reached a conclusion that was solely based on your selective reading, and deliberately tried to make a point that was not there. In addition, while you quoted from my reply to Marian in post 28, you also stopped short of the ... next sentence:
[quote]
"As it is with almost every issue worthy of a sound debate on CC, it's easy to get sidetracked or lost in the complexity of the issues. As I wrote in the other thread, there is a lot of good parts in the IB program. My biggest problem is not that it is offered, but that it is adopted by schools for motives that are --in my view-questionable.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A statement that echoed part of my post #25, "While the numbers of Stanton in Florida are worthy of kudos, what is happening here in El Paso, Texas is very, very different." and in post #56
[quote]
The IB program has many great attributes, and might be the best thing ever for students who have Ivy League ambitions. But, why is it introduced at schools that will not see 10% of the students entering its buildings ever graduating with a college degree ... including a vocational degree or a two-community college degree.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yet, you opted to simply declare that I "do not see any value in it." As far as my provincial "ad hominem," I am afraid that it seemed appropriate to rely on the--inaccurate--contents of your posts rather than simply accept your statements of implied knowledge at face value. </p>
<p>For what it is worth, you may want to compare my early statements about the potential dangers of introducing the IB in underperforming schools that do not have adequate faculty and resources to the position expressed by Marite in her last post.</p>
<p>Have a nice day!</p>
<p>j07:</p>
<p>I hope you feel better! Good post, thanks for sharing your experience. </p>
<p>There's a lot to love in the IB program. By the way, you need only 3 IB subjects instead of 4 APs to receive Advanced Standing at Harvard or Yale and Princeton, I believe, so there is no short-changing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Of my graduating class of 468, there are only 24 people completing IB Diploma.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is the issue that various posters have raised. If a district introduces IB as a means of raising performance throughout the whole high school, is it a good return on investment if only 24 students our of 468 complete the IB diploma? What happened to the other 444? Did the presence of the IB program lift their performance as well or had no effect or divert resources away from them? </p>
<p>When you feel better, perhaps you could try to address my queries. I'd really appreciate it. Good luck, too, on the college applications.</p>
<p>Thanks for the feel-betters. I'm currently stuck at home on a Saturday night, though, so I really have nothing else to do!</p>
<p>IB Diploma kids are like the royalty of my high school in terms of how the faculty views us. Teachers literally bend over backwards to help us out when we need it. Our TOK teacher constantly rearranges her calendar and our class schedule to make sure that things aren't due in TOK the same day that other tough projects/essays/tests occur in our other IB classes. As was brought up in a previous post, the 24 of us are like a little family (apologize for the cliche). We have all been in the same honors and pre-AP classes together since freshman year and we pretty much have a presence in each of our classes as packs. While the average class size for my high school is probably about 30 kids, all of my classes except for one this year has between 13 and 22 students. The IB coordinator of our school brings cookies and punch and other fun snacks for us to TOK every Friday. Basically, we are treated like we are the best of the best, and that is greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>50% of kids in my high school have trouble passing TAKS, which is the Texas assessment test required for graduation. Even in honors classes in 9th and 10th grade a fair amount of time was dedicated to reviewing for TAKS skills, which literally drove me occasionally to tears of frustration and boredom because I was so infuriated with how much of a waste my hours at school were.</p>
<p>There has always been a problem with "ceiling kids" in my school district. The district's first priority is to get everybody to graduate and to pass TAKS. If there is any time, patience, or funding leftover to help the kids who have been at the top (and bored to death) since kindergarten, then so be it. However, this is usually never the case.</p>
<p>Implementing an IB program into a school essentially does nothing for the kids who have trouble with basic grade-level material because it is voluntary. The direct benefits of IB are in essence never marketed very well. If a student has trouble with grade-level work, there is a 0.00000001% chance that said student will choose to complete more rigorous work for a reward that is difficult to foresee.</p>
<p>While, like I said before, I am not in love with IB, I appreciate the fact that it does help out those kids who have always been bored and frustrated in public school. However, IB really doesn't do anything for those other 444 except give them a group of students to admire for their intelligence/dedication or to marvel at for their blatant insanity.</p>
<p>j07:</p>
<p>As the parent of a kid who was bored by unchallenging work, I very much sympathize with your reasons for signing up for the IB program.</p>
<p>There are two very different issues being debated. Is the IB program good for those enrolled in it? On the whole, your experience suggests it is. It seems a good preparation for college--which does not surprise me in the least. The other is whether it is a good idea for underperforming schools to introduce it and to use their limited resources to support a program that benefits so few students. The experience of your larger school suggests it might not be.</p>
<p>Many years ago, our high school went through a periodic bout of restructuring. Parents were welcome to sit in on committee meetings and I decided to sit in on a committee I thought was going to be discussing equity for students--a contentious issue as there were claims that certain groups of students received more resources, enjoyed smaller class sizes, etc... Well, the committee did discuss equity, but among teachers. Some, it was claimed, had smaller class sizes; they got to teach brighter (read less difficult) students, etc... The atmosphere was rather venomous. I slunk out of the meeting, quite depressed. Your account of small classes and dedicated teachers brought this experience back to mind.</p>
<p>I agree that there is a discernible amount of inequality between teachers at my high school. The first day of school this year a brand-new regulars chemistry teacher quit because he was so overwhelmed by what he had experienced in a misbehaved and unruly class the first day. Teachers of IB courses are privileged, in my opinion; we are all generally intelligent, eloquent, and mature for our age, we all work hard, we don't cheat. </p>
<p>While IB does prevent me from being bored, a lot of the work that is required is in my opinion largely boring and kind of a waste of time. However, I'm sticking to it just because the alternative is worse.</p>
<p>I call BS on not cheating. I'm in IB... saying that is like saying fish don't swim.</p>
<p>The key to IB is to know that you don't have to take the crazy courses. IB Chem HL is notriously hard at our school, and the teacher is crazy. Why anyone takes it is beyond me. You're going to have to retake it anyway if you're going into a serious pre-med program.</p>
<p>I am in my final year of IB and I've made it this far by completing course tracks early, and not being afraid to take the "easy" ib classes. Sure, I could have challenged myself harder, but I've been busy with my music ECs and other things. I'm not at the very top of the class but I'm up there.</p>
<p>Keep a solid standing (mostly A's, some B's) focus on getting test scores, and pursue what you really love. That'll get you to a ton of places...</p>
<p>Also, I have to say this. If you're not doing well in IB, get out. There's no reason to suffer through it unless you are successful. The way it is set up, some people are just not going to be able to do it. There can be conflicts between learning styles and teaching styles, or any number of other issues. By the end of the first year, you should know if you're going to be able to go through with it or not.</p>
<p>Honestly, in my time in IB, I have spent an average of 30 minutes a night on homework... that's it. The suggested time is "30 minutes a class"... Just learn to time manage well, and your life shouldn't be consumed. If you find yourself pulling all nighters frequently, just get out. Highschool isn't about that. You need to enjoy your teenage years. Save the drama for college...</p>
<p>I haven't read every post here, but to xiggi's original post I would say that IB programs can be quite divisive. In one particular school district, many children participate in the IB program at an early age. Why? Because the best and most experienced teachers have the IB classrooms and parents want their kids to have the best teachers. Parents rule here and the district bends over backwards to place each student with the specific teacher the parent wants...all they have to do is ask. Later, when the kids get to high school, many kids drop out of the program. Why? Because they are segregated from the main student body and the students don't want that. This district has tons of AP class options where the students are better integrated into the general student body. Many see the IB students as elitist, antisocial and just plain weird.</p>
<p>When it was suggested that the IB program be cut, many objected. Sure, a few really wanted the complete IB experience. But many IB and non-IB alike objected because it would cause redistricting of the elementary schools (IB program was only in one school)! The motives of many were totally selfish and had nothing to do with the IB program itself.</p>
<p>In the case of this affluent suburban school, there are plenty of academic and extracurricular enrichment opportunities. IB is really not a good use of resources, imo. If they allocated resources to the IB program in proportion to the number of students who use it, IB would die a quick death. It is simply not cost effective to run the program for so few high school students, and I think the quality of the elementary program depends more upon the teacher than on the IB curriculum. Would it not be better to use financial resources where they can help the most students?</p>
<p>Use it or lose it! ;)</p>
<p>Would it not be better to use financial resources where they can help the most students?
I would agree with you- but this is what I see happening.
Our district has two schools( out of 100 K-12, one brand new to the IB program) with IB.
They aren't widely known, and so don't have the draw that my daughters school with the most AP classes- nationally known music programs and award winning student newspaper does.</p>
<p>There are other district schools that have better buildings with equal community resources for a less challenging student population, but the support from administration for AP is not as strong, as hence the class offerings aren't as strong either.</p>
<p>IB- seems to have an external structure in place that mandates the way the classes are run- yes much less flexibility, but it sounds like the students and parents would know more what to expect.</p>
<p>If they entered a school that had AP classes one year, but only half the classes the next year, as is likely depending on teacher assignments, they might get frustrated and change to IB or even leave the district.</p>
<p>When principals may stay at the most 4 years or even less in a school, its hard to know what to count on, but if a school has made a commitment to IB, in terms of training, and facility remodeling, they aren't going to just drop the program lightly.</p>
<p>True, I can see how IB could be a port in a storm if a school district has unstable administration or if AP classes are in danger of being cut. I guess we are fortunate in my area that all of the public school districts have a nice selection of AP's on a regular and reliable basis. It is peculiar that the richest district with the most stuff is the one with the AP vs IB controversy. Some people just defy reason in order to get what they want and what they believe they "need".</p>
<p>Xiggi, back to your original thoughts: is it worth it, will it divide, will it work?</p>
<p>I have been thinking. Because of its language component allowing for a bilingual diploma, I think it would be great for the borderlands to look into this program. I lived in Brownsville for a long while and I know the ups and downs of the region although I have been gone for almost 20 years and lots can change. I have always felt that the bilingual/bicultural nature of the border is one of the greatest natural resources in the USA. On consideration, I think the IB might be a program to consider. I know, I know, it would take time and energy and planning to make it really work, but it just might be worth it.</p>
<p>Haha, this will probably be construed as offensive by some... but we'll see.</p>
<p>Shouldn't the best students get the most support and resources? Shouldn't we focus on making the best better instead of making the worst marginal or medicore? Which is better for society in the long run, better leaders, or a more filled out working class?</p>
<p>My school is the "bad" school of our county. We're located in the projects (not near or close to, IN.). Before the IB program and academy of health careers program, my school got Fs on all the state tests. There has been a steady incline over the past few years, and as it stands right now, we're a B school. This has caused a major increase in funding for EVERYONE. Not just IB. All the students have gained benefits because of our increased funding. Now that we have the grades and the funding, we can spend more time on the lowest quartile of students.</p>
<p>"I have been thinking. Because of its language component allowing for a bilingual diploma, I think it would be great for the borderlands to look into this program."</p>
<p>Overseas, that is a good point. However, it gets back to the issue of competent faculty. In a city such as El Paso, 75 to 80% of the population is of hispanic origin, but one issue that is plaguing the area is the explosion of pochos, citizens who do not speak English or Spanish properly. There are a merits to a bilingual education--as well as many problems--and you're correct that the IB program might work well, especially if there is a strong component of quality control and faculty training involved. For the record, schools in Texas are recruiting heavily in Mexico for SPanish speaking experienced teachers. The salaries offered at roughly 6 to 7 times what they earn in Mexico. The expansion of the program is great as English teachers can focus on English, and REAL Spanish teachers can teach Spanish. There is hope that Texas might be able to separate itself from this bunch of quasi-teachers who are unable to pass the competency tests in either language. Well, we know that there is a HUGE and well-organized barrier to hope and the pursuit of quality.</p>
<p>I am a full-IB diploma student. I am taking 4 HL and 2 SL classes. Both of my SL level classes are taught in HL in my school, so it is the most rigorous IB program that can be possible. (Chemistry-Physics-Biology-Mathematics-English A2-Turkish A1) I write approximately 2 lab. reports every week, each averaging 1500-2000 words. I am also doing Turkish diploma, which has its own requirements. I am pretty active in terms of ec's, though. If you have perfect time management, you can finish everything and still have 7 hours of sleep (Most of my friends in IB sleep about 5). AP is a joke in terms of amount of work that it requires. I only needed 10 days of IB-level study-time for 7 AP exams last year (all self-study). However, AP is really different from IB in that IB makes you think and AP makes you memorize stuff. At least, that is the way that the exam is, and that is the way that my school teaches it. By the way, my school is a private school, which is really experienced in IB diploma programme. Maybe it is why I think that IB is much better preparation for college than AP.</p>