Too good to be true?

<p>I just read this forum <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=109402%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=109402&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>This student sounds extraordinary. When does he/she sleep? I'm exhausted just reading this kids resume.</p>

<p>If this kids is worried about his/her chances of getting into school, where does that leave the rest of us? Is there any hope for a bright, but normal kid?</p>

<p>My question is really rhetorical. Is it the norm for smart, nice, normal kids to be competing with wunder-kids? Are these wunder-kids normal? When do they find time to be children? Are these wunder-kids burned out when they get into college?</p>

<p>I personally know 3 kids that I would classify as wunder-kids. One of them won a full scholarship to MIT, and then a second full scholarship to Yale law school. This young woman is currently working for the supreme court for one of the chief justices, and is the mother of 2 babies. The other 2 were both heavily involved in research, won the Intel Science search, and both currently attend a top 5 college (HYPSM). All 3 chose ONE EC, and did it superbly.</p>

<p>It seems far more credible to me to focus on one EC, and do it with passion, than to have a list of ECs a mile long. I echo one of the other posters ... is this kid for real? It really sounds too good to be true.</p>

<p>Kill me for saying this, but this is madness. I have good, smart kids that I am proud of. They work hard in school, do the ECs that they like, have a social life, and relax when they come home. Normal kids. I think any college would be lucky to have them as students. And if the lucky colleges are their safeties, so be it.</p>

<p>" Is it the norm for smart, nice, normal kids to be competing with wunder-kids?"</p>

<p>Only when it comes to colleges like HPYS and the top merit scholarships at places like Duke, Emory and Vanderbilt. </p>

<p>Yes, wunderkids really do exist. Such students have lots of energy, don't need much sleep, are briliant, personable and have a genuine interest in and talent for lots of things. Such kids are born, not made, and are rare -- except when it comes to the ranks of those admitted to the very top colleges and merit scholarship programs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One of them won a full scholarship to MIT

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How does one win a full scholarship to MIT when they only provide need based FA? Maybe this is a low income student where MIT met their need leaving them very little or no out of pocket cost (my money is on the very little) or they won outside scholarships which they applied to the cost of attending MIT</p>

<p>LooseCannon, I was just at an info session. The adcom same thing that you did. They would much rather have a few developed ecs than a laundry list. He also said that we expect applicants to have time for friends, and occasional tv time.</p>

<p>There are also ppl who feel a need to send in more than 25 letters of recommendation, and he stressed that is just not necessary. Some lay out everything they do from the moment they get up (daily schedule). They do not want to read that either. Boy, some applications must be interesting. I know some kids want their application noticed. They send them in colored envelopes, for example. The adcom probably never even sees the envelope- data was probably put into the computer before adcoms even looked at the application.</p>

<p>I know sybbie
I had a car full of kids while driving on a field trip the other day- and frankly one girl was getting on my nerves talking about all her acomplishments and her GPA, and how her brother got a full scholarship to Yale.-I couldn't stand it and had to butt in and while I acknowleged that it is great that he was admitted ( although this was last month and I didn't realize that they admitted people for the 2006-2007 year already) that a good number of schools only offer need based aid, and of those students that are admitted, they all recieve 100% of need.
( I told myself this was for the benefit of the others in the car- I wanted kids to realize that many of the most expensive schools do meet 100% of need)
To be fair, this girl might not have even have realized that the awards are need based- it is a big deal to even be admitted to Yale- </p>

<p>But then we also were able to have a discussion about colleges and about how there are many many colleges, some that aren't as well known as others, but that with a little research- a great school can be found for just about everyone :)</p>

<p>LooseCannon - chill. Yes there are Wunderkids out there, and yes they do very, very well in college admissions, but there are also kids who do well (including HYPS well), who aren't Wunderkids by CC standards. One child I know who was admitted to a HYPS EA, was waitlisted at another RD, and turned down the EA to go to another highly selective school because of fit - she was a good applicant, even by CC standards, but not stellar or breathtaking.
BWRKS do get into HYPS, they just don't get into all 4, they get into, say 1 or maybe 2, where something about their profile fits the school's needs, or makes them stand out a little.</p>

<p>Another thing to remember about the child profiled in the other post, is that she has gone all 4 years to an exclusive boarding school - she can work those activities in because, as I understand it, they keep those kids as busy as possible, as busy as they want to be. Those schools usually require sports participation, and many kids would do music and community service as well. There would be virtually no travel time, so it is easier to work all those acitvities in.</p>

<p>Yes, it is madness, but the process does mostly seem to work itself out, even though I've taken over a year away to see that.</p>

<p>LC, I basically agree with you--sometimes it all sounds physically impossible, no matter how bright, focused and dedicated the child is. Cangel is also right that the boarding school makes a huge difference--not only is there no travel time and heavy scheduling of EC's, but there is no participation in family activities, no chores (am I the only parent who expects this anymore? :)), no attendance at siblings' activities, etc.</p>

<p>There are some other issues: Asian kids who are children of immigrants (as this girl appears to be) are culturally Driven with a capital D. My S1 told me this story about a Korean girl in his house at Caltech. She participated fully at orientation, but after the first quarter freshman year, she "disappeared." Most of the kids thought she had withdrawn and gone home, they literally never saw her. Last spring, end of Junior year, she visited everyone in the house to personally thank them and say goodbye, because the registrar had refused to let her sign up for classes--she had enough credits to graduate so they told her she had to leave. This is a true story!! </p>

<p>I don't know about you, but even though my s2 is very gifted and has accelerated his learning, I wouldn't want him to do that.</p>

<p>Northstarmom is right, we have heard the same things from adcoms while visiting on campus that 1 or 2 EC's are plenty if the student is committed to them and truly enjoys them.</p>

<p>EK4- I suspect your passenger's brother plays a certain sport well. One of S2's good friends is being heavily recruited by Yale crew coach, they had promised admission verbally by the 3rd week of September. But since the Ivies don't give athletic scholarships, I think you can pretty much assume that the "scholarship" was an exaggeration.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If this kids is worried about his/her chances of getting into school, where does that leave the rest of us?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There is no evidence that the kid is worried. The posting is from a parent, not a kid.</p>

<p>And the parent is not just worried about getting the child into college, but getting her intro "a good school" with "full financial aid," given a very low EFC and an understandable reluctance to apply ED.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, in this country with a less-than-transparent admissions process, it is understandable that parents worry about admissions, even for as talented a student as this one appears to be.</p>

<p>Our admissions system must seem especially bewildering to immigrant parents like the poster on that thread. </p>

<p>In other countries, university admission typically depends on the outcome of a single well-defined, high-stakes entrance exam. If you score above the cutoff, you are in. Otherwise not.</p>

<p>In other countries, universities do not cheerfully boast that they turn down half the students with perfect scores on the entrance-exam in order to accept students with lower scores but with other--sometimes less quantifiable--credentials, like sparkling essays, fascinating off-beat EC's, or playing the right instrument needed for the orchestra. </p>

<p>In other countries, admissions officials do not boast that the entering class they admitted is "indistinguishable" from another class they could have gotten if they just tossed out the applications from the admitted pool and went fishing again for another class of equal size from the remaining applications.</p>

<p>In other industrial economies, tuition at the top universities does not cost on the same order of magnitude as the median family income. </p>

<p>In other countries, universities do not modify their admissions standards in order to admit star athletes, nor do they offer such athletes a free ride, all-expenses-paid university education.</p>

<p>In other countries, there is often a very clear "pecking order" among universities--with the ranking made explicit by the cutoff scores needed to gain entry, and parents naturally encourage their children to shoot for "the best."</p>

<p>So far as I know, other countries do not have a phenomenon where some universities reject or waitlist very strong students that they think will go elsewhere. </p>

<p>Reasonable people may differ about whether the admission system in other industrialized countries is better or worse than here, but it is certainly the case that other admissions systems are more transparent than ours.</p>

<p>I can certainly imagine that recent immigrants would be about as befuddled about the American admissions process as Lewis Carroll's Alice was befuddled by Wonderland.</p>

<p>Just to get to this country, green-card immigrants have had to jump through all sorts of arbitrary and sometimes mystifyingly inconsistent bureacratic hoops. </p>

<p>I can certainly understand why immigrant parents, new to our country and culture and language, would be wary of further unexpected booby-traps in the admissions process.</p>

<p>It's hard to know what kind of information to trust. The history of college admissions in this country (e.g., explicit and openly acknowledged discrimination against Jews less than a century ago, more recently things like Princeton admissions officers breaking into the Yale computer system to find out about the status of overlap applicants, antitrust proceedings against colleges for sharing financial aid informatino on overlap applicants a little over a decade ago, adcoms making statements about the effect of ED of dubious veracity, "merit aid" as sometimes thinly disguised discounting for yield management purposes, etc.) </p>

<p>None of this exactly inspires confidence in someone newly arrived in our country.</p>

<p>That is possible I don't know- about the sport angle, she was actually an international student and I wondered if it was hyperbole, that she felt was expected of her.
I know sometimes international students favor certain schools whose names are more familar, and dont realize that there are other schools besides the Ivies that it might be worth applying to ;)</p>

<p>I actually think the girl's resume sounds a bit pretentious. Lot of jargon and puffery about being the only toddler in diapers doing cutting edge research with graduate students, etc. </p>

<p>Almost all of the list is fairly standard-issue prep school activities, couched in flowery language. For example, she wrote for the school newspaper and was one of many editors senior year. She was on the debate team and, of course, the debate team at a prep school does well. And, so on and so forth. These are school ECs, expected at a prep school and really no different than most kids at CC have done. It's like being on a top Science Olympiad team when your high school's "thing" is sending a team to the national Science Olympiad every year. At the end of the day, applicants are judged on how they took advantage of the opportunities available to them at their schools.</p>

<p>"Community Service program designed to integrate service in the City of XXXX with learning about how inner-city conditions developed." -- this is a prep school course. They study inner-city issues in the classroom and do some fieldwork. Sounds like a nice course. Great experience, but not quite the end all and the be all that the language implies. There are kids who have gotten their hands dirtier with a community service interest.</p>

<p>She has good grades at a tough school, a high class rank, is obviously very smart and her parents started prepping her for SATs at a very young age and made a career of applying for every award. I don't think she needs the hardsell application.</p>

<p>I actually think applications that undersell, or at least sell in a more self-depricating way, may be more effective. Colleges want living, breathing teenagers...not robots. This kind of applicant would be well served to write a fun, quirky, off-beat essay. My prediction, she'll get some nice acceptances, and some polite waitlists, too. Especially because it is easy to predict her college list and the pressure she must feel to get into a "good school", which I'm sure is a very short list.</p>

<p>As for "competing" with this girl, my advice is let your kids worry about their own apps. Bring their own personality and talents to the table. There's room for all kinds.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I actually think the girl's resume sounds a bit pretentious. Lot of jargon and puffery about being the only toddler in diapers doing cutting edge research with graduate students, etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think "pretentious" is a bit harsh, considering that it is not "the girl's resume" but an understandably proud parent's listing of his child's accomplishments.</p>

<p>I happen to know a young man very much like the poster's daughter. His immigrant father is also understandably proud of his son and happy to share details of his son's accompishments. The young man himself is very modest and unassuming. I think it likely that the resume he would create would present his accomplishments in a much more straightforward way, without undue elaboration. I imagine that he understands that admissions officers will be more interested in the substance of what he learned from his research opportunities, rather than the fact that the other researchers in his lab were grad students. </p>

<p>By the way, it may be difficult for the parent of the girl on the other thread to post substantial details of the daughter's accomplishments (e.g., her research subjects) on this forum without compromising her privacy. Of course, she will be able to provide such details on her college applications.</p>

<p>I agree. "Pretentious" wasn't really the word I was looking for. I didn't intend to be harsh; I'm sure the girl is an amazing student.</p>

<p>The point I was trying to make is that a very impressive sounding resume and a less puffed up resume may indeed be describing exactly the same kid. For example, all the parents with a child who worked on the high school newspaper and landed one of the half dozen editor positions senior year, raise your hands. I thought so! My daughter did and, frankly, it didn't amount to a hill of beans. I can't remember, but I don't think she even put it on her application -- she was determined to fit her activities on the lines provided in the common app. Figured that if the top five didn't do the trick, dazzling them with five more wasn't going to make any difference.</p>

<p>I could be dead wrong, but my hunch is that "overselling" activities is probably not a great approach on a college app. It's just a gut feel based on reading a lot of "oversold" activity lists here on CC. I suspect adcoms like a refreshing change of pace.</p>

<p>If I were the girl in question, my bullet points would be the outstanding class rank and test scores, the science research, and I would probably emphasize the Republican politics in an essay because it adds an interesting, quirky, unexpected twist to the plot line. I would be tempted to add a line to the activities list called "typical school activities" and line-list two or three that aren't the focus of the app.</p>

<p>Wisteria, regarding your post #8, all of that may be true, but you left out one huge, major difference between "other countries" and the U.S., in that litany. "Other countries" do not expect that a sizeable majority of h.s. grads will apply to 4-yr Universities, let alone the proportion that apply <em>here</em> to the top tier universities. Thus, it is "truly" more "self-selective" {my quotes of course} to begin with. Generally, people who have the intellectual goods, and the goals, to attend a 4-yr, will apply there. Those that don't will not expect (a) to be looked down upon by the rest of the population or (b) to not have a career, vocation, decent living. There simply is not the "dividing line" over there that there is here, between the "college-educated" and the non-college educated. Vocational schools are more respected overseas, trades are more respected overseas, the population is overall more realistic about education and its outcomes. That's what I hear directly from Europeans. (Don't know about Asians, but I thought it was similar to Europe in that respect.)</p>

<p>In Europe & some of Asia, secondary schooling is superior to U.S. secondary education. Perhaps that's why having a secondary diploma (only) is not looked down upon there, as much as it is here. I've been told that graduating from secondary school there can be much more like earning at least an Associate Degree at a U.S. good community college, after a very good h.s. education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I've been told that graduating from secondary school there can be much more like earning at least an Associate Degree at a U.S. good community college, after a very good h.s. education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>To give an example to prove FrenchBaroque's point, in Hong Kong, any person who have finished their HKCEE (equivalent to GCSE O-Levels in the UK-- or maybe harder) at Form Five (age equivalent to Grade 11) are eligible to apply for community colleges in the US. By this way many Hong Kongers-- including those whose results are far from spectucular-- are easily getting into public colleges in the US through transfer, and finishing college one year early.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Other countries" do not expect that a sizeable majority of h.s. grads will apply to 4-yr Universities, let alone the proportion that apply <em>here</em> to the top tier universities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That may be true of the country in general, but * among the social class of workers that has been able to get green cards to immigrate to the US in recent decades *, university education is a very standard aspiration. </p>

<p>US immigration law in recent decades has strongly favored highly educated immigrants, so their expectations are not necessarily representative of their home country as a whole.</p>

<p>In any case, the point of my litany was not to say that other country's systems were better or worse than ours, but that bewilderment in a new immigrant family going from those other country's relatively transparent admissions systems to our rather byzantine and mysterious system is quite understandable.</p>

<p>Wisteria - I thought your post was very thoughtful and that it rang quite true.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what the OP or anybody else is getting so worked up about. I.m.o., the student being written up by the parent is not a "wunderkid." She's accomplished a lot, is competitive, but I personally know many students who have accomplished at least that much, and in some cases, more. That does not mean that either she, or they, do not sleep, are overstressed except by choice/desire, etc.</p>

<p>Much of the list is duplicative, and much is "flowery," as someone else said. Some of it is vague or overstated. Some of the categories do not indicate what level of commitment, in terms of hours, are involved. Being in a school orchestra, depending on the instrument played, the music performed, the playing level of the orchestra, can be pretty undemanding on one's time, in some cases. Being in a top-level youth orchestra that is a branch of a major metro symphony orchestra, & is funded by that parent orchestra, & which tours, is another matter.</p>

<p>While I'm sure there are kids who misrepresent themselves here and elsewhere, there are plenty of kids who really do have all those achievements. I learned that lesson a couple of years ago: there was this kid who came on CC, who was applying to Harvard, and claimed that he had taken something like 17 or 19 AP classes - basically about twice as many as most other kids. He was called a fraud by the other kids. They said nobody can take that many. No school offers that many, etc., etc. He was basically run off of CC as an accused and convicted liar. </p>

<p>Well one year later, my D met and got to know that same kid at Harvard, and turns out he REALLY DID take and pass all those AP classes. At that point he was still offended by the reception he had gotten on CC. I learned right then that just because something seems impossible doesn't necessarily mean that some motivated kid won't actually go out and achieve it.</p>

<p>Please keep in mind that alot of kids who post here are the "wunder kids" that applying to the top schools. They are the cream of the crop of the country. I think your regular kids don't come even know about these boards, so the few that do, just represent a small minority, while the majority are the wunder kids. Makes sense?</p>

<p>Whoops, didn't mean to say "your regular kids", meaning your kids personally. I meant the regular kids that make up the majority of the kids in the United States....which is the category that my kids belong to....and I'm very glad they do.</p>