<p>Ever? Really? This is their one and only opportunity to learn organization and management skills and feel the consequences of not being on top of the timing of things? Really? </p>
<p>IMHO this is not the time for management skills lessons. I have been very involved in DS’ application process for several reasons. First, because he would not be applying to more than one school otherwise, and we are adamant that he have options come April. Second, he needs it. We are talking about a kid who, in the past 3-1/2 years, has gone to school twice in shoes which were similar but didn’t match. I have to look over his attire in the morning just to make sure he is attired. He is the quintessential absent-minded professor - very bright, but living on his own plane. </p>
<p>Third, he has needed a lot of help with his essays, because, apparently answering prompts like those typically given isn’t really his style - he can’t think of much to say, or he meanders away from the topic at great length. He has writing issues in general, and still needs A LOT of education in that department. Gee, I bet they offer colleges courses in just those things.</p>
<p>^I agree with sylvan above. The college application process in the US is a very idiosyncratic process, different from that which occurs in most other countries, and is not necessarily the crucial rite of passage that some make it out to be (though it is a very important hurdle). It has become exceedingly (and needlessly, I would argue) complex. There is no reason for kids to be making decisions on their own about which tests to take and which to send on their own. Kids do not necessarily have great sources of information and guidance. I have found neither of my kids’ guidance counselors to be as thoughtful about the important issues as I am and as a number of parents on CC are (and CC parents have provided very good advice at various stages of the process). </p>
<p>The argument that one shouldn’t get or deserve a good placement in college (e.g., one should be lower down the league tables) if one can’t manage all of the logistics of college applications on one’s own seems logically indefensible. The argument would seem to hold only if one thinks that the college application logistics challenge is testing critical skills for success in college and/or in the working world later on (query: is the latter the point of college admissions?). As someone who has studied and taught at Ivies, worked as an investment banker and run a small firm (and had sundry other potentially informative experiences), I do not see that skill at running the college gauntlet on one’s own should be a major criterion in the process by which we as a society sort applicants to colleges. While the executive function skills required might be correlated with being a good project manager or running an NGO or a marketing campaign, I do not see a clear correlation between being good at running the college gauntlet solo and being a superior physics student/physicist, an economics undergrad or a global macro hedge fund manager, a poli sci major or professor, or a leadership consultant. Plus, kids tend to get better at the executive function stuff as they mature. It’s unclear that they become that much smarter as they mature, although with luck they become better educated. So, I don’t think the thesis that one must run the gauntlet solo to be a good or deserving candidate for a superior institution to be compelling.</p>
<p>Some kids will be good at that. Others may be strong at other, equally important, skills. Some kids in the latter camp will have support for the gauntlet, while others will not. It is the latter group that concerns me the most. They have neither the skills nor the network to find a good way through the byzantine process that getting into college has become. This may result, in one sense, in a mis-allocation of societal resources.</p>
<p>I don’t know any kids who have been successful in a competitive college search without help from someone else, either parent, teacher or counselor. I have known some incredibly bright students who went on to Ivy caliber schools and advanced degrees but wrote some very bad college essays on their first try.</p>
<p>I think the test of doing “too much” is better judged by whether the parent is the initiator in many or all aspects of the student’s life. Students who have demanding schedules need help in managment - for these kids the application process can be more difficult than attending the colleges they are applying to. I see nothing wrong with a good partnership between parents and kids to make sure that deadlines aren’t missed, essays are representative of the student, and applications are complete and on time.</p>
<p>I am very lucky. My son is at a small private school and they have had a class since January of his junior solely dedicated to all things college related. We only had to take him to see schools and complete the CSS Profile. His essay is being read by his guidance counselor, will be given back to him with suggested revision and then he will take it to his English teacher for a second look and back to his guidance counselor. His guidance counselor proofs all applications but there is a deadline of December 1st that all apps must be in his office. </p>
<p>Neither DH or I will read his essay or applications.</p>
<p>We also made our son arrange for all his college visits and set up his interviews as I believe it is important that he be the one who does that. </p>
<p>Frankly, I am thrilled not to be involved. It would have been one big nagfest.</p>
<p>Actually momofboston (and I really am saying this for everyone else that is reading), she got accepted to Tulane University, Newcomb-Tulane College. Architecture, Liberal Arts, Science and Engineering, Freeman Business School, and the School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine are all under the N-T College umbrella. The reason this is important is that Tulane is one of the easiest places to explore and change majors if you want. Anyone accepted to N-T College is able to major in any discipline offered by those schools. So an architecture student that decides after a year they really want to be a business major? No problem. Neither is the reverse situation, although there will be some catching up to do. A Spanish major that decides they want to be an engineer? There will be some catching up to do there too, but no problem.</p>
<p>Just an opportunity for me to get that out there. So happy for your D!! Oh, and btw, she does realize Tulane only offers the 5 year M.Arch. degree, right? They don’t do the Bachelor’s for that discipline. They have been doing some amazing things in connection with the rebuilding from Katrina.</p>
<p>You seem to have taken into account only part of what I have written and ignored the rest. No where did I mention that students should be navigating the college process entirely on their own, but rather I was trying to point out a difference between “helping” and over-helping, between letting the student take the initiative and the parent-doing-it-all scenarios. </p>
<p>fallenchemist - thank you for the clarification - Where she pursues a 5-year March or a 5 year Barch doesn’t matter at this point - it is still 5 years and Tulane offers some very unique experiences in this field - rebuiling NOLA. With either degree, she will be able to sit for the arch exam when she completes her internship. I am just happy that she is able to pursue architecture, something that she has wanted and prepared for since she was in elementary school. Regardless of the how or where this is one of those “limited” majors where it wasn’t clear she would even be given the opportunity to pursue it as an undergrad…we knew she would be able to get in quite a few schools but given the selectivity of the program (similar to Ivy) it wasn’t clear she would get into a program…there are only about 3500 undergrad seats each year (due to studio space limitations) in the country…so, it is all good!</p>
<p>Oh yes, it is all very good. And I have heard amazing things about the leadership of the Tulane Architecture department. It sounds like you know more about this than me, so clarify one thing for me. I thought a Barch was a 4 year degree, and the March was the 5 year degree, and that it comes with some kind of accreditation the Barch doesn’t. I probably have that all screwed up. Just curious.</p>
<p>A BArch is a 5-year program and an MArch is usually a 6 year program (better known as a 4+2) - both are NAAB acredited which means you can sit for the profession exam. Some schools are becoming creative and offering the 10 sequential studio design sequence as a 5 year March program like Tulane. As long as the degree is NAAB accredited, there really isn’t a big difference between the BArch and MArch - there is little professional recognition associated with the Masters (unless you want to teach). It isn’t like receiving a Masters in Science or an MBA where more job opportunities may open up or there is a bump in pay. Once you get a Barch/MArch you need 3 years interning before you can sit for the exam. You can get a 4-year Bach of Science in Arch (different than BArch and more engineering/build focused) or a B of Art in Arch Design - these prepare you for a 2 year MArch or 3 year MArch - but they are not NAAB acredited and you can’t sit for the exam until you complete your masters.</p>
<p>Because the studio requirements are sequentional, it is nearly impossible for someone to change majors into an architecture program because they would need to complete the studio program sequentially. They would need to start over as a freshman…most arch programs leave very little room for electives (maybe 2-3) tops outside the arch core curriculum…and most kids will use it for language (for the study abroad requirement whichis usually mandatory in an arch program)…Tulane is unique because the arch students have a good chance at seeing their designs built because the school is driving some the rebuilding effort and overall urban planning -</p>
<p>Thanks for the detailed info! That is really interesting. You really do know a lot about this.</p>
<p>I have seen a number of pics of the various projects the Tulane architecture students have gotten involved in, from new green housing to renovating classic old buildings. Great stuff. Best of luck to your D.</p>
<p>When my first son applied to colleges, his public HS counselor gave us the greatest concept ever:</p>
<p>Be your child’s executive assistant or secretary but let your child be the executive or chief officer.</p>
<p>It was for us great advice. It gave us “permission” to help (or be responsible for) file folders, to remind him about dates and deadlines. But it made him ultimately responsible for getting the job done and making the decisions.</p>
<p>Most importantly, it set parameters about the language we used with each other… so that we didn’t present ourselves as nagging him, but as “doing our job as assigned in order for him to do his job.” The counselor pointed out that in the real world, every executive uses his or her assistant different, depending on personal needs and style, so that negotiating that relationship is proper and appropriate. So she gave us permission to negotiate how much we would do for him and how we would come back to the table to renegotiate.</p>
<p>Some parents asked, shouldn’t the student take all the responsibility? And her answer was, if he or she wants to and can, that’s fine, and some students have to because of family circumstances, but it is an individual family choice – there is simply a lot to be done, and you are NOT overly indulging your child if you help with the workload, just as families and friends help each other out in many ways.</p>
<p>Once it was clear that he had hired us to ensure his success as the CEO of First Son Application Corp it both lightened the tone and clarified roles. Again, this is what worked for US, different for everybody!</p>
This is mostly true. The biggest difference between the two is that a BArch knew what they wanted to be when they grew up straight out of high school and the MArch didn’t (or at least they wanted a liberal arts education first.) Some architects feel the BArch is actually the stronger degree since they have had more studio courses. The truth is there are a few schools with national recognition which may be somewhat more useful if you want to teach, but a lot of architectural hiring is local. I got my degree (MArch) at Columbia and felt I was at a real disadvantage looking for a first job in the Los Angeles area.</p>
<p>silversas, thank you for sharing that–I like the “secretary to the CEO” analogy.</p>
<p>I’ll confess, I was rather smug on this subject after going through the process with our first child. She didn’t need a secretary! She developed her list, prepared all of her apps and chose her school–all without our input, save “what is the credit card number?” </p>
<p>But of course, all kids are different. Here I am two years later playing secretary to the CEO! And it is inexplicably stressful! Why am I worried about something so simple as addressing envelopes?! </p>
I am not the world expert on this, but I don’t think that is right. I mean, you are the architect so I hate to argue with you, and perhaps I am either not understanding what you mean or you misstated it. At Tulane at least, it is a 5 year program where you get a MArch, but it isn’t like you major in History or French first. Your 5 years are crammed with Architecture courses and, of course, some courses in other areas. Here is what is in the catalog (the numerical values on the far left are the credit hours):</p>
<p>I am an in-your-face, write-that-essay-NOW, cram-for-the-SAT kind of Dad, and I make no apologies for my behavior. With S1, I took the lowkey approach, and he got into all of his schools but the one he really wanted to go to. I know that I if I nudged him harder, and pushed him to rewrite the dorky Why<school>? essay, he would likely have been admitted, rather than waitlisted (it was a mid-tier LAC). So I am taking a more activist approach with S2.</school></p>
<p>The other reason why being involved is justified, is that we are talking about a huge amount of MY money. S2 is looking at schools with COA north of $50K/yr. I have told him I will/can only pay $30K, and even that adds up to $120K for the 4 years. No way an I going to be passive on a complex decision with $120K of my money on the line.</p>
<p>Nope, the decision about where to apply, where to go assuming the money works out), and what to study are his. But given that the local GC is no help, we don’t use tutors or counselors, there are no other families to ask for help, and there are few “do overs” in this highly complex process, my fingerprints are all over it.</p>
<p>Our school uses a 12-point scale. A+ = 12, A = 11, A- = 10, and so on. Honors and AP-level classes are “weighted” with an extra point. therefore, if you get an A+ in an honors class, you earn a 13. A = 12, etc. In this way, it is possible to get well over a 12.00 (4.00) overall GPA.</p>
<p>Many college (maybe even most, idk) figure on (or ask for GC’s to provide) the unweighted GPA also. And they also look at your “Academic Index” (I think that is the correct terminology)…which is your unweighted average in core classes only…taking out the A+ you may have gotten in choir or band for four years, to kind of keep everyone on an equal playing field.</p>
<p>Obviously, feel free to correct me if I got this stuff wrong, I am learning as we go!</p>
<p>
AMEN!!! And can we all stop feeling so guilty about helping our kids in this! And can people who didn’t get involved stop being so smug? I didn’t buy my first house without asking my dad if he would look it over first, asking my accountant if it was a wise investment, asking a realtor friend to help me with the closing process. Could I have stumbled through all of this on my own, and perhaps learned my lessons through the school of hard knocks…? Could I maybe have been just fine anyway cuz I done went to college and I ain’t so dumb? Absolutely! But why not enlist the help of people wiser than you? Why is that a crime? (sorry, maybe that belonged on the rant page! :D) </p>
<p>I am just so SICK of everyone accusing engaged parents of being “snowplows” or “helicopter moms”. The process is complicated (much more so than when we did it a hundred years ago…) Here is my CAVEAT: AS LONG AS THE STUDENT IS “DRIVING THE BUS” (meaning they are actively involved in the process and not being drug along in ignorance) I see nothing wrong with giving whatever help they ask for. We, as intelligent humans, surely know the difference and can trust ourselves to keep a balance. </p>
<p>Left to their own devices, a 5-year-old could probably learn how to tie his shoes…but how much better to learn from a loving parent! Does it make my son a slacker because he asked me to help him learn how to tie? In the same way, I think this age-appropriate help! (I will now breathe…)</p>
<p>Fallenchemist - Mathmom is right - there are three levels of MArch degrees - MArch, March2, MArch3 - March and BArch are for kids that know what they want and start an intense program from day 1 - each school packages it up differently but they are essentially the same.</p>
<p>March2 and March3 are for kids that took a different path and got their undergrad degree is something else - they are either 1, 2 or 3 years depending on what course they took as undergrads…specifically in studio art. All of these paths get you to the same place - the ability to sit for the professional exam. Can you do architecture work without the exam? Yes but you can never really open your own firm.</p>
<p>Each family needs to strive for a “happy medium” that is comfortable for all. </p>
<p>That “happy medium” place will vary by student/parent combo, college aspirations, need for aid/scholarships, and support services available from teachers and GC. The important thing is for parent and student to be comfortable with the scheme.</p>