<p>DadII
Do you not remember what happened to andison? He was a top student and had to take a gap year. He is now at MIT. There were others this year (cant recall names off the top of my head) who also didnt get in anywhere.</p>
<p>Not sure how anyone could research "student with stats similar to your d's who applied to at least 5 top 20 schools". Perhaps you could do that for PG?</p>
<p>every time this type of discussion always turns into that one single data point. Out of millions applicants every year, we always go back to that one single example. It is almost easier to win a lottory than being another Andison.</p>
<p>And the origins of the story:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/47867-we-re-picking-up-pieces-but-what-went-wrong.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/47867-we-re-picking-up-pieces-but-what-went-wrong.html</a></p>
<p>DadII, your d is also "one data point." And I can guarantee you that there are others like andison, but who do not have the courage to post or won't admit it when you talk to them. "Oh, yes, I got into CollegeZ, but they didn't give me enough money, so I'm taking a gap year." Or "I decided to do Americorps this year." While in some cases the statements may be true, in others they may be saving face.</p>
<p>Chedva. with all due respect, I would argue that, yes, there is only one "my DD", but there are 10 of 1000's students, like my DD, who got into top 20 universities every year. </p>
<p>So, in terms of a super good student's chance of getting into a top 20 school, the data would say that is at least 50,000 to 1. As to the beginning of this thread, the OP said the student has an excellent stats including a "very high ACT". I doubt anyone would come to CC and claim a 34 or lower score as a "very high ACT".</p>
<p>Dad2, you are absolutely right when you say that top students generally get into at least a few of their colleges of choice. However, things do go wrong, more times than you would expect. I have seen top students get into trouble senior year, whether it is foolishness, laziness, mood probems, etc. Many, many times, I have seen kids blow a top drawer app that last term. Some get in under the wire with early plans so that the colleges don't see that damning Mid year report, or the high school does not report a transgression that occurs during that time. Sometimes not. </p>
<p>Also this year there were a number of kids we know who are going to safeties for a number of reasons such as aid not panning out, and because it was a dismal year for admissions. Parents have had to make a decision whether it is worth $52K for their student to go to OK but not Elite U, when there is a merit award for $30K sitting at Safety U or State U is only $15K. At the time of sending out the apps, it was all systems go, and really everyone had their minds on the top reaches and were willing to pay full freight and even throw in an arm and leg to boot for kid to go there. Now that the season is over, and that $52K is a reality, it becomes a tough go to pay that check to a school that was a match but not really what the kid wants. I know my older son was reasonably pleased with one of our state schools. "I could go there, and be happy," he said. And when it came down to it, some of the elites even fell under it in terms of choice. Not the way the process started at all.</p>
<p>Also folks do not tend to brag about being turned down by a lot of schools. THere was a poster here that had a top kid who ended up at a good LAC, but not at a lot of his top choices. Had he not included that school, he would have batted zero in terms of choice. </p>
<p>Also I know some kids who have hurriedly added more schools to the list around Christmas time when the early answers have come back less than expected. I know we were one of those parents with my second son. When we realized that he what a tough shot he was going to have with his choice of major (and yes, we did know it all along but nothing like a bunch of rejections and deferrals to make it real), we added a bunch of non audition schools to the list. We did not exactly advertise the process. Good friends of ours did the same last year, when their D was deferred from GT and BC. She was a top student, and they had no true safeties on their list in the beginning. They became believer safter the early answers, especially since a number of other top kids at their D's school were deferred as well. They did not announce this move, just told some close friends quietly. </p>
<p>I'm not sure why every student would NOT want to find a safety school. There are thousands of schools out there to pick. In many endeavors in life, it is going to be a valuable skill to pick the best of the likely paths instead of only going for the top and sitting there with nothing until that such a morsel should drop in ones hands. Like finding an expensive item at top price from top outlets, cherry picking is easy. It's finding the "good deal" that takes the work. Anyone can put together a list among the top schools. Ahh, the job of considering among HPYSM. Discussing the ivies and other top schools that make everyone stoop and nod. The same schools that are featured repeatedly in guides. Really, who cares if you go to H vs Y vs P. It's finding the admissions deal that makes the college search challenging, and there are important life lessons to be learned from that. How on earth does it hurt to find a good safety school?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Could you find one example on CC that a student with stats similar to our DD (34 ACT, UW GPA 4.0, 10 AP, excellent E/C and very good recommendations) and applied to at least 5 of the top 20 schools that did not get into at least one of them?
[/quote]
DadII- Your question is, as you no doubt know, difficult to research- so the obvious example comes to mind. Why then do you devalue it? It does happen, as chedva and cptofthehouse noted, and probably more often than you know. It is probably not as rare an occurrence as you think. There are thousands and thousands of top students with top grades all over the country (and internationally), and simply not enough spaces to offer to them all in the top schools. Hopefully applicants won't take the "I'll throw applications at all the top 20 schools to see what sticks" attidude. Even the prestige seekers can come up empty handed.</p>
<p>Rankings don't tell you everything either. My d. discovered that #1 LAC (to which she was recruited and accepted) was substantially academically inferior to her "safety" in the subjects she wished to study.</p>
<p>My H's associate has a daughter who is not going to a school of choice this year. She did pick a few "safeties" but did not really pick them carefully. Spent more time choosing her reaches, ever so carefully and ruminated, thought, visited, enjoyed talking about them. She was one of those top drawer candidates that all of us were sure was going to get into one of her top choices. Particularly since her father is very well connected to a number of the schools. A lot of envy about that. Did not help her. </p>
<p>My second son's close friend is going to a school that he did not particularly like either. Did not get into some schools that should have been sure shots. I hardly call the school he's attending a safety, but one that the family and young man did not want. It was a safety as far as he was concerned. </p>
<p>Many kids have schools on their list that are not necessarily safeties in terms of acceptance stats, but are schools that they do not particularly like. To replace those schools with a very good safety that they like, that they have researched and can enjoy is truly a challenge.</p>
<p>I agree that it is imperative for even the best students to apply to at least one safety school. It is like having homeowners insurance - fortunately I have never had to make a claim, but I sure wouldn't want to be without it. </p>
<p>I wouldn't want my kid to be the one who didn't get accepted anywhere. My S made his list, which included safeties, very carefully, and would have been happy attending any of the schools on it. That frame of mind should be the goal of everyone making a college application list.</p>
<p>The OP's daughter is to be congratulated for her very high ACT score and other excellent stats and ECs. She needs to think about exactly what she wants in a college, and search accordingly. When you consider important factors, such as strength in major, location, size, urban/suburban/rural, public/private, student stats, cost, availability of FA and so forth, many schools can be ruled out. That helps with the start of the search, at least.</p>
<p>Without research, just from last year experience with college acceptances, ACT=34 / GPA=4.0 sometime is average believe it or not in a pool of appicants to some selective schools or selective programs/scholarships at state schools, and they consider themselves very lucky to get to one, since there are many of them to one spot available. I heard that Princeton accepted 17% of valedictorians applied there last year (I do not insist on this number, but it was very low %).</p>
<p>My friend's son also got the "no, thanks" from every top school that he <em>should</em> have gotten into. He had the grades, scores, leadership, activities. I have absolutely no clue how UMich turned him down ... he must have sent his app in late. Anyway, he went to a local state U for a year & now is at UM. He warns people constantly about not assuming anything!</p>
<p>DadII, what if the 5 of the top 20 a kid picks are the wrong 5? My D had friends who were turned down from JHU, Yale, Stanford ... with their stats, one would think they definitely should have been accepted. One very well respected private school in our area did not have a single student accepted to Harvard last year ... the headmaster actually flew out to have a discussion with the folks at Harvard after that happened. Nothing is guaranteed. It's just so important to mention this over & over, to avoid the "I can't believe I didn't get in" issues in April.</p>
<p>The safety or likely schools are the ones that seem to get the least amount of thought and research, and they should be the ones that get the most. The chances of getting into the very top schools are very small even for top kids, and when it comes down to it, the difference of getting into one over the other is often dissipated by the relief of getting into such an exclusive school. Finding the right schools that are extremely likely to take you is really hard to do. Most kids just skirt over that part of the search, throwing in some schools without much thought, or just putting down their state schools. In fact some of the matches that are in there just in case are not the ones that appeal to the kids. I can often see in a kid's face their lack of enthusiasm for some of the schools. Don't thing an admission's person cannot sense this. This can result in wait list status for kids at some schools where the stats would indicate acceptance. I know one kid who was waitlisted at a school where she was sure she was a cinch; luckily she was accepted elsewhere that she likes better, but the pickings were not as generous as the family had hoped it would be and a few of the waitlists were true shocks. I don' t think they felt it was a remote possibility that their D was not going to get into her choices towards the end of the process when they got a couple of unexpected waitlists and rejections. Some of the other schools on the list were schools that the young lady did not want to attend, and it was looking increasingly bleak that she was going to get into any school that she wanted to attend.</p>
<p>My D. is very happy at her #2 choice, she did not get to #1 and had few other rejections. She was top of her class. Nothing is guaranteed, no matter how hard they tried. She considers herself lucky. Her school said in their acceptance email: "Be very proud of your accomplishment, we had a record number of applicants".</p>
<p>DadII-
There are no guarantees. Top students are competing for spots with kids just like them. It helps to be a minority, in my opinion, and that is not just race, but location as well. We were told from the start that being a white jewish male from Long Island would hurt my son. Stats: Valedictorian, 1/400, 4.0 unweighted GPA, 13 AP's (plus honors and 1 college class), interesting recs with leadership in all. Let it be told- great stats, great kid, but nothing to make him stand out from the other smart kids).
Son did not get in to Harvard (nasty interviewer that berated him for not applying to Columbia), JHU-no, UWSTL-waitlisted, Brown-Weightlisted (with excellent interview and by the way, the kid with lesser but close stats-non-jewish white kid from our school, got accepted which they both deserved, Stanford-no. All this and we did not need or qualify for financial aid. (Good acceptances- Berkeley, UVa, UNC, UMiami, MSU, BU, Tulane, Brandeis)
For your interest if money is a factor- UCB no merit, UVa no merit but was a Jefferson Scholar finalist, UNC no merit, BU no merit-even though he more than met qualifications listed on their website for great $, Miami- full ride (see web for specifics and qualifications), Tulane-22K, Brandeis 15K. (By the way, our school does the minimum to help the kids.) May have forgotten other schools to list. 14 in all.
Learned more for round 2 with next son from all this and the CC forum although it will not be as easy. I'll likely list my quest for suggestions soon.
Good luck. Be careful of those "reach" schools that you think are a match. There is no such thing. Too many unknown factors. You'll find kids on all these sites who were rejected from match and safeties. Location is big so use that for your advantage.</p>
<p>See above.
Forgot, 34 ACT with all parts 33-35. Consistent kid.
By the way, happy at "safe school". Treated very, very well there. Small classes at school with 10,000 kids. Went in with 45 credits.</p>
<p>This years class valedictorian was rejected from Cornell-4th generation legacy with a brother there. You never know. Last year (although my son didn't want to stay in NY so didn't apply, they did accept 3 or 4 or more from our district.</p>
<p>Wow! I haven't checked in on this post in a few days and was so pleasantly surprised by all the support and feedback! She has fine tuned a list of 8 schools, arranged in a different order than most. She has arranged them in three catagories.</p>
<ol>
<li> Service Academy - USNA</li>
<li> NROTC Scholarship Schools
Notre Dame
Villanova
Marquette
University of San Diego
University of Idaho (ROTC requires a state school choice)</li>
<li>No Naval Option
Notre Dame
Washington University in SL
Seattle University</li>
</ol>
<p>Her first choice is the NROTC at Notre Dame. I wanted to clarify too, that I think I see reach schools a little differently than many. I see a match as a school that you fit the stated class profile. I guess what I mean is that academically she has no reaches, as to the selectivity of the admissions committee and the traits they are looking for in a class, they are always a reach as we have no control over those things and they are outside our control. Sort of like a 4th category.......safety, match, reach, "individual fit".</p>
<p>Thank you all for your advice and input!</p>
<p>Good luck to your daughter.
Seems like a great list and she should have some really good acceptances and choices in the end!</p>
<p>
[quote]
The safety or likely schools are the ones that seem to get the least amount of thought and research, and they should be the ones that get the most
[/quote]
That statement bears repeating, cptofthehouse. Well said, and very important. </p>
<p>Bullinskimom-
Your daughter seems very impressive and has a very distinct view of her college selection and the college process. My hat is off to her.</p>
<p>crazed, 2 kids from my S's class got into Harvard with similar stats (val/sal, SATs all in 700s--but not best SATs in the class) but less rigorous course load. Neither of them cured cancer or played like Yo Yo Ma. I think you are exactly right. These kids got in partially because they were from Maine. Your S didn't partly because he was a Jewish kid from Long Island.</p>