<p>This was a discussion about top STATE schools. I agree with Duke not being a rising southern school. Actually its PA score has dropped over the past three years. Just kidding!</p>
<p>I noticed that right away too gellino. It seems to me that Michigan pushes the ACT over the SAT in terms of importance when they are evaluating students. Many Michigan applicants only take the ACT because of this.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Originally posted by gellino:
Measuring a school by the caliber of its student body hardly seems ridiculous to me, especially in comparison to differentiating the top ~15 or so schools that could all have a median SAT over 1500
[/quote]
Even if we don't consider the size factor, Geneseo is not better in raw numbers:</p>
<p>SAT 25%-75% range:
SUNY Geneseo: 1220-1380
Michigan: 1220-1420</p>
<p>Freshmen in top 10% of high school:<br>
SUNY Geneseo: 57%* (top 10%); 88% (top 25%)
Michigan: 92%</p>
<p>*Where are all the top students in NY?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The SUNY Geneseo range is 640-690M, 620-700CR
[/quote]
The numbers we all quoted are from USNWR for 2007 enrolled freshman class. Source for your number please?</p>
<p>novi,
Michigan pushes GPA/curriculum/class rank, not SAT/ACT.</p>
<p>Old points system for admission:</p>
<p>SAT 1200-1350 (points=11)
SAT 1360-1600 (points=12)
ACT 27-30 (points=11)
ACT 31-36 (points=12)
GPA 3.8 (points=76)
GPA 3.9 (points=78)</p>
<p>That's true GoBlue81. It just seems to me that more people are taking the ACT over the SAT when they are tested nowadays. I can see from your facts that the tests are given the same weight.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but Geneseo is basically a LAC so there will be smaller classes there
[/quote]
Let's not get carry away with this LAC image. Geneseo is still a public school with its inherent limitations.</p>
<p>"With a 265 member faculty we are able to ensure a student-faculty ratio of 19:1 and provide close, personal relationships." (SUNY Geneseo)</p>
<p>I meant "rising" in terms of PA...Hawkette's pet peeve. However, not all universities can have distinguished academic programs (high PA) because that implies they lose their distinction.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The numbers we all quoted are from USNWR for 2007 enrolled freshman class. Source for your number please?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Even if we don't consider the size factor, Geneseo is not better in raw numbers:</p>
<p>SAT 25%-75% range:
SUNY Geneseo: 1220-1380
Michigan: 1220-1420
[/quote]
</p>
<p>collegeboard has 1260-1390 for SUNY Geneseo and 1220-1420 for UMichigan. </p>
<p>Is a 29 ACT better than a 1320 SAT?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michigan pushes GPA/curriculum/class rank, not SAT/ACT.</p>
<p>Old points system for admission:</p>
<p>SAT 1200-1350 (points=11)
SAT 1360-1600 (points=12)
ACT 27-30 (points=11)
ACT 31-36 (points=12)
GPA 3.8 (points=76)
GPA 3.9 (points=78)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So, GPA is considered 6-7x more important than SAT? That seems ridiculous considering that at one school a 3.8 could be in the top 1%, while another school a 3.9 GPA would only be top 15%. Not to mention that the difference between a 3.8 and 3.9 seems random and negligible compared to the difference between a 1250 and 1550 SAT.</p>
<p>That is based on an unweighed curriculum. I guess that Michigan feels when students get top grades in core subjects these are the best indicators of academic success at their school. Unlike some top universities, they don't allow superscoring of the SAT or ACT that might cause some students to take these tests multiple times.</p>
<p>
[quote]
collegeboard has 1260-1390 for SUNY Geneseo and 1220-1420 for UMichigan.
[/quote]
Collegeboard is wrong then (from experience, CB's data is not as reliable as USNWR). According to Geneseo's common data set for 2007-08:
<a href="http://www.geneseo.edu/isu/cms_pdf/iresearch/C-Freshmen%20Admissions.pdf%5B/url%5D">www.geneseo.edu/isu/cms_pdf/iresearch/C-Freshmen%20Admissions.pdf</a>)</p>
<p>SAT CR: 600-690
SAT M: 620-690
SAT range: 1220-1380</p>
<p>gellino,
That was the old points system used as a guideline for admission. It is no longer used since 2003 after the Supreme Court decision on Michigan's affirmative action practice (URM and socio-economic disadvantage=20 points).</p>
<p>But you missed the point. The chart clearly indicates that Michigan didn't put much weight on standardized tests as applicants scoring anywhere between 1360 to 1600 SAT were put in the same basket.</p>
<p>Gellino, Michigan never placed too much importance on standardized testing. In the old point system, Michigan gave a maximum of 12 points for the ACT or SAT. GPA on the other hand was worth a maxium of 80 points. A student with a 3.9 unwieghed GPA and a 1200 on the SAT would have had more points under the old system than a student with a 3.8 GPA and a perfect 1600 on the SAT.</p>
<p>I personally agree with this admissions system. A GPA is a result of 2-3 years of commitment to studies. The SAT or ACT can be mastered in one summer. Most students with above average ability can score well on the ACT and SAT, but those tests do not measure intellectual thirst, intellectual horsepower or stamina.</p>
<p>to GThopeful and GoBlue:</p>
<p>Don't forget, GT also has an entire college of liberal arts. I'm majoring in History, Technology, and Society. The least mathy/science major in the school. I only have to take two math classes, two science classes, and one computer science class. The rest are all english, history, and sociology classes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So, GPA is considered 6-7x more important than SAT? That seems ridiculous considering that at one school a 3.8 could be in the top 1%, while another school a 3.9 GPA would only be top 15%. Not to mention that the difference between a 3.8 and 3.9 seems random and negligible compared to the difference between a 1250 and 1550 SAT.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How does this completely miss the point? It is me specifically refuting the point.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most students with above average ability can score well on the ACT and SAT, but those tests do not measure intellectual thirst, intellectual horsepower or stamina.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you kidding me? High school grades certainly don't measure intellectual thirst, nor horsepower. There are many times when you see a val or sal that is just a nerdy grind and people who rank #5 recognized as much more intelligent.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The SAT or ACT can be mastered in one summer. Most students with above average ability can score well on the ACT and SAT
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a ridiculous overstatement which says nothing. To me, there is a large difference between a 1300 and 1500 SAT, both of which would be considered scoring well in a relative sense.</p>
<p>GoBlue81,</p>
<p>What facts do I have to get straight? I just asked a question, to which you didn't really respond, by the way. I was curious about what Michigan has done recently or at least since the state supreme court decisions. But you were talking about something that happened 30 years ago. Someone else did answer my question to a certain extent, but I had already read about that.</p>
<p>Gellino, I was not referring to any one person. All I am saying is that the ACT/SAt requires serious preparation for 1-2 months. Maintaining a 4.0 GPA in high school requires serious preparation for 2-3 years. It is a different kind of commitment altogether. Both can measure intelligence to a degree (although some very intelligent people will always do poorly on standardized tests), but in my opinion, only one (GPA) measures work ethic and intellectual horesepower. </p>
<p>Most students I knew when I was in college scored 200-300 (out of 1600) points lower than I did on the SAT. But I really prepared for the SAT whereas most of them did not. Preparation for the SAT/ACT at most state universities is not common. In the classroom however, they were every bit as capable as I was. I struggled to stay ahead of the curve. Those students who scored 200-300 less than I did on the SAT were definitely as capable as I was.</p>
<p>Re the matter of cost, here is how the Top 20 public universities (according to USNWR) compare for tuition & fees:</p>
<p>Rank IS Tuition & Fees , School</p>
<p>1 $3,790 U Florida
2 $5,272 Georgia Tech
3 $5,396 U North Carolina
4 $6,030 U Georgia
5 $6,802 U Washington
6 $7,034 UCLA
7 $7,556 UC Irvine
8 $7,568 U Wisconsin
9 $8,005 U Maryland
10 $8,130 U Texas
11 $8,573 UC Santa Barbara
12 $8,635 UC Davis
13 $8,679 Ohio State
14 $8,911 UCSD
15 $8,932 UC Berkeley
16 $9,300 U Virginia
17 $10,246 W&M
18 $11,111 U Michigan
19 $11,261 U Illinois
20 $13,706 Penn State</p>
<p>Rank OOS Tuition & Fees , School ( % of students from OOS )</p>
<p>1 $21,386 Georgia Tech ( 29% of students from OOS )
2 $21,400 U Florida ( 4% of students from OOS )
3 $21,818 U Wisconsin ( 32% of students from OOS )
4 $21,918 Ohio State ( 11% of students from OOS )
5 $22,294 U North Carolina ( 17% of students from OOS )
6 $22,342 U Georgia ( 11% of students from OOS )
7 $23,076 U Maryland ( 23% of students from OOS )
8 $23,219 U Washington ( 13% of students from OOS )
9 $24,940 Penn State ( 24% of students from OOS )
10 $25,334 U Illinois ( 7% of students from OOS )
11 $25,722 U Texas ( 5% of students from OOS )
12 $26,102 UCLA ( 4% of students from OOS )
13 $27,176 UC Irvine ( 2% of students from OOS )
14 $28,656 UC Davis ( 2% of students from OOS )
15 $28,932 UCSD ( 3% of students from OOS )
16 $29,181 UC Santa Barbara ( 4% of students from OOS )
17 $29,326 W&M ( 31% of students from OOS )
18 $29,540 UC Berkeley ( 10% of students from OOS )
19 $29,600 U Virginia ( 28% of students from OOS )
20 $32,401 U Michigan ( 32% of students from OOS )</p>
<p>bclinton,
The Northeast may have lost its manufacturing base long ago, but gained a superpower in the financial industry as Wall Street has seen enormous growth since 1980. The wealth created there has been the major source of the huge gains/additions to the endowments of the premier (private) NE universities. Also, due to the large numbers of terrific private colleges in the NE, the culture (political, media, and otherwise) there does not have the same commitment to the publics as in other states. </p>
<p>Now contrast this with the state of Michigan. There are not any highly ranked, nationally recognized privates in a state with a population that is declining, but still numbers over 10 million. Thus, the publics of U Michigan and Michigan State and others will be the focus of the local culture and the beneficiaries of any monies that the statehouse can find (tougher and tougher to do these days). They seem to be taking steps that will add to a new economic infrastructure, but it's a big state with a lot of problems and their investments will take a lot of time to prove out and success is far from assured. I agree that these colleges will need to be increasingly self-sufficient and the sharply curtailed state support/financial flexibility in a weak economy with declining jobs/population is among the challenges that I was referring to earlier. </p>
<p>UCB,
When I wrote earlier in this thread about rising southern/Sunbelt powers, I was thinking about publics like U Florida, U Georgia, Georgia Tech, U Texas, Texas A&M, UCSD. I agree with bclinton that this is less likely for poorer, and more poorly-run, states like Alabama, South Carolina, Kentucky, Arizona, New Mexico etc.</p>
<p>Not to worry hawkette, Michigan will just get a bailout like wall street recently enjoyed.</p>
<p>"Are you kidding me? High school grades certainly don't measure intellectual thirst, nor horsepower. There are many times when you see a val or sal that is just a nerdy grind and people who rank #5 recognized as much more intelligent."</p>
<p>I am not sure I see your point. I am not talking about one or two isolated cases. I am talking about an entire class of 1,000+ freshmen entering a particular university. I doubt that all 3.8+ students who take challenging classes in high school are nerds. In fact, I would estimate that the majority of them are well rounded and accomplished.</p>