<p>harvard
MIT
Stanford
Princeton/Penn/Yale
berkeley
Columbia</p>
<p>then prolly UChicago/UCLA.....</p>
<p>international community loves business schools..@@</p>
<p>and yea....stanford above cal
though I'm gonna be a bear next fall.:(</p>
<p>"What is the point of an education if you go in the same as you come out?"</p>
<p>Ok. I get your argument, MZ Lover. You're basically saying that the Berkeley education gives more to those who get it, than the Ivy League education gives more to students who get it - not that the average Berkeley graduate is more qualified than the average Harvard graduate?</p>
<p>of course :)</p>
<p>eric - i think you are confused. Ivy league schools do not turn out better people, they accept better people that make it seem like the schools did someting. There has been research (one really famous research project) that showed that kids who got into HYPSM etc. but did not attend that prestigious university did just as good as kids who were accepted and attended. Colleges are not somehow innately better than each other. And what is wrong with the Berkeley student body? You guys act like they're second class students who shouldn't be mentioned anywhere near Harvard, Stanford or Yale. Does it mean anything if they got a lower SAT score? Everyone knows that the SAT is a test that you can prepare for and do very well on without being very smart. How do you know that some kid at Berkeley in Mech E. isn't as good as the kid at Princeton? Because he scored 50 points on the SATs? Because Berkeley is made to give an advantage to in-staters since it is University of CALIFORNIA at Berkeley? Or because Berkeley admits 25% of its applicants, thus somehow, making it completely inferior to everyone else? People who can go to Berkeley and pull a degree out KNOW they went through some tough *****. It's not like Harvard or Stanford where the grades are inflated like balloons just so they can go to their grad school of choice. Often, the arrogance that many HYPSM, etc. grads show will make their degree LESS valuable when compared to a Berkeley degree if that kid from Berkeley shows humility and understands what it is to come from a background where you have to be challenged (whether its life or academics). Berkeley admits way more low-income students than HYPSM can dream of. Don't act like Berkeley sucks because it gives low-income students a chance to compete in the job market.</p>
<p>Well I wouldn't say it's purely a matter of social class. With the amount of financial aid schools like Princeton give, we admit a lot of low-income students.</p>
<p>But, more your point is well taken. Berkeley does not suck. My argument before, if I could paraphrase it, was that Ivy League graduates were 'better' than Berkeley graduates in these terms (defined by mea)</p>
<p>"to the contrary. If berkeley can enroll less stellar kids and turn them into ivy league professors in 4 years, whereas HYS enrolls more stellar kids who don't turn out much better, Berkeley is rather more impressive."</p>
<p>HYS are better, in that they turn out even more Ivy League professors. That's all I meant to say, and I completely stand by that statement.</p>
<p>Berkeley is excellent - but it is not 'just as good' as Ivy League schools in all respects. It is better in some ways - engineering, for instance. But Ivy Leagues are better in many ways, too.</p>
<p>i forget...malaysians love cambridge/oxford/lse/imperial/UCL/warwick/bath. malaysians bloody love the UK. somebody gag me. in fact, all these would only rank behind harvard or perhaps even not. then would come all the rest like almighty yale/princeton etc.</p>
<p>eric, i think you're missing my point, or that i'm missing your point, but anyway:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28193%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28193</a>
<a href="http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/%7Emcguire/worth_college_leagues.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/~mcguire/worth_college_leagues.html</a>
<a href="http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/20040902easterbrook.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/20040902easterbrook.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.statenews.com/editions/011800/p1_study.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.statenews.com/editions/011800/p1_study.html</a>
<a href="http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Savingforcollege/P36742.asp%5B/url%5D">http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Savingforcollege/P36742.asp</a></p>
<p>take a look at those when you have time about similar students accepted to brand name and not-so-brand-name schools. That's my point. I don't think ivy leagues give a better education; I think students <em>get</em> their education.</p>
<p>""to the contrary. If berkeley can enroll less stellar kids and turn them into ivy league professors in 4 years, whereas HYS enrolls more stellar kids who don't turn out much better, Berkeley is rather more impressive." </p>
<p>Your assertion that 'they turn out even more ivy league professors' is irrelevant. </p>
<p>My comment was in response to this: 'If you transported all the Stanford and Harvard students to Berkeley, and transferred all the Berkeley students to Stanford, then I would enroll in Berkeley in a heartbeat. All that matters is the quality of the students.', which basically took the view that universities are a selecting, classifying, system. A grades go to Harvard, B grades go to your least favorite state U, C grades go to community college. My view is that higher education is an opportunity that will be grasped to varying degrees depending on the student. If you're going to accept Berkeley students in a 'heartbeat' because they were admitted to Stanford, instead of looking at what they actually * did [/did] at Stanford, and you're going to reject Stanford students because they were 'only' admitted to Berkley, then that is a mistake in my view. If you view universities as weeding machines and labels, fine, but that's my opinion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"What is the point of an education if you go in the same as you come out?"</p>
<p>Ok. I get your argument, MZ Lover. You're basically saying that the Berkeley education gives more to those who get it, than the Ivy League education gives more to students who get it - not that the average Berkeley graduate is more qualified than the average Harvard graduate?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>actually, what you quoted was from me (no problem tho), but again,my point was more that universities are not labels, they're opportunities. If we're talking about jobs accepting Ivy League over less stellar unis (in your opinion), people shouldn't be judged by how well they were able to do as an 18 year old. How well you do in a home-to-school environment at a private high school etc may be vastly different from how you react when left to fend for yourself. If your 45 k education caused problems, did you get a job? If your passion was in biology, did you further explore it and grasp all your ivy league opportunities? </p>
<p>I can only hope that med schools will see me the same as my undergrad choices have seen me, but I know that unfortunately (but justly) that is not going to be the case unless I continue my relative academic/extracurricular/personal strengths of hs in uni. </p>
<p>to sum up (i've digressed a bit): ivy league does not equal success. how the student grasps opportunities at State U or Big Shot U determines that.</p>
<p>Why does Berkeley accept thousands of students? Because it is a state school; it has to in order to provide an education to those in California, while keeping it affordable. </p>
<p>Berkeley isn't a Harvard or Yale or Princeton; it is not an Ivy. It is a state school. But does that mean automatically that students going to Berkeley are dumber than Ivy-league students? To suggest so would be flaunting every bone of stupidity in one's body; Ivies accept less than steller students occasionally too (shall I remind everybody how having parents donate a couple million or being a son/daughter of an alumnus can beat out other kids)?</p>
<p>Moreover, there is no research to show that Ivy students are more successful after graduation. </p>
<p>A Berkeley degree may not be a heart-stopper but it certainly won't hurt it's bearer.</p>
<p>(By the way, the pool graduating from Berkeley is a completely different pool from those admitted into Berkeley. The lazier students get weeded out pretty quickly).</p>
<p>I agree with that last statement - I think we are in convergence in most points.</p>
<p>But I disagree with you, in the one critical distinction that students at Ivy League institutions are more likely to "make more of their time there." (i.e. success)</p>
<p>And if your argument was taken to its logical extreme - wouldn't there be no need for affirmative action, or even consideration of economic circumstances, in admissions?</p>
<p>These disadvantaged applicants would "make the most of their time" anywhere!</p>
<p>I read the articles. In the long run and in the aggregate, these seem like solid truths (and I have read some of these before).</p>
<p>However - think about things this way. Georgia Tech graduates make more money on average than Princeton graduates (re: sakky). Does this mean that they are more successful?</p>
<p>eric,</p>
<p>man, let's not go into TOK debate on the meaning of 'success'. To some people, that is one way you could look at it (I certainly don't). However, the links (thanks for reading them) have various indicators of success and the point is that an ivy league education at its core can only certainly affirm that you got into an ivy league when you were 18. Mucho congrats.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I disagree with you, in the one critical distinction that students at Ivy League institutions are more likely to "make more of their time there." (i.e. success)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mm, I don't see that. Part of me thinks, maybe slightly more likely, since, again, as 18 year olds they worked their tails off to be able to get in. But there are just too many holes. Any of HYPS[insertothertopunis] will readily attest that they could fill their classes many times over with equally qualified applicants. Princeton and Yale only have a 70%ish (stats courtesy of Byerly) yield. Students may find their interests are not satisfied by a big shot U and may opt for specialized programs or a specific U. Others have money, location, family problems. Others find that when they look past the brand name , they see the same opportunities at a cheaper and closer school. Frankly, I think these people are the sensible and rational ones.
So generally, I don't disagree with that. However, it's not a safe generalization to make. No employer finds it wise to hire an ivy leaguer without corroborating from what the candidate <em>did</em> at the ivy league and reevaluating his abilities/traits.</p>
<p>I think we do agree, eric...just that we're nitpicking. I don't think you mind....: )</p>
<p>
[quote]
These disadvantaged applicants would "make the most of their time" anywhere!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you saying that's not true?</p>
<p>(-edit to insert quick disclaimer-
I have nothing personal against big-name-schools. I'm guessing from the way you used 'we' in an earlier post of yours that you went/are going to the same uni I will be attending this fall.)</p>
<p>Personally (my 2¢), I think the top 10 universities known internationally are (in no alphebetical order):</p>
<p>Berkeley
Caltech/Penn
Chicago
Columbia
Harvard
Johns Hopkins
MIT
Princeton
Stanford
Yale</p>
<p>What I find odd is that the universities with the most name recognition don't have the highest percentages of international students- "lesser known" universities do.</p>
<p>Harvard
MIT
Stanford
Princeton
Cornell
Berkeley
Yale
Columbia</p>
<p>From what I've experienced, Brown and Dartmouth do not have much international prestige, while UPenn somewhat does. Also science schools tend to be better-known internationally than non-science schools.</p>
<p>Well, I'm British so here's my 'international' perception of how US universities rank (in terms of likliness and magnitude of my saying "wow" to someone studying there)...</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Berkeley</li>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>Brown</li>
</ol>
<p>nobody really is familiar with more than that. Of course, we're all still sure that Oxford, Cambridge, LSE (yeah!) and Imperial outrank most major US unis. Oxbridge probably regarded higher than Harvard by most.</p>
<p>I would say that Stanford, Yale, Princeton as well as state ones like Berkeley and many other US universities have massive "wow" factors internationally, but I think from what I've gathered speaking to people from Asia, Europe and Australia the following four universities have the greatest wow factor:</p>
<p>Harvard:-</p>
<p>The wealthiest university in the world and oldest in the USA, its name is synonymous with academic excellence.</p>
<p>Oxford:-</p>
<p>The oldest university in the English-speaking world. Has produced more politicians and literary visionaries than anywhere else.</p>
<p>Cambridge:-</p>
<p>The greatest academic alumni and highest number of nobel prizes in the world, also has led league tables in its country and the world.</p>
<p>MIT:-</p>
<p>Seen as the greatest scientific institution in the world.</p>
<p>
[quote]
MZ Lover - I think you are conflating causation and correlation. Just because Berkeley's average grades are lower, does not mean grading itself there is hard. Dump the entire Berkeley student body, magically into a Harvard grading system. I doubt they would achieve the same grading distribution that Harvard students achieve
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well it's kind of hard to tell when you give everyone a 4.0. Either way, the average Berkeley student's grades would go up if dropped in Harvard.</p>
<p>Don't make me dig up the article about the kid who had a 1.9 from a community college and forged the credientials to get into Yale (where he graduated with a 4.0).</p>
<p>do it.........</p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't make me dig up the article about the kid who had a 1.9 from a community college and forged the credientials to get into Yale (where he graduated with a 4.0)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you referring to Lon Grammer? That's the only case that I can think of who came from a community college and forged his credentials to get into Yale. So if you are referring to Mr. Grammer, then first of all, he did not graduate from Yale, but rather was found and was not only expelled, but was sued by Yale in civil court and charged with criminal larceny. Second of all, he didn't get a 4.0 at Yale, not even close. </p>
<p>"Lon "L.T." Grammer, the former Yale University senior charged with allegedly falsifying his Yale transfer application and fraudulently obtaining $61,475 worth of scholarship money, is bracing for a court case whose loss could land him in jail.</p>
<p>After police arrested Grammer last April, they charged him with larceny in the first degree, the technical term for the wrongful taking of someone else's property. Yale officials make the case that Grammer defrauded the University and the Federal government of the financial aid. If convicted, he could face 20 years in prison.</p>
<p>According to police reports, the college transcript he sent to Yale in 1994 listed a 3.91 grade point average, while the one Cuesta Community College sent last April showed his true 2.077 GPA."</p>
<p>"Grammer's story sparked debate across the country about the honesty of today's youth, and the problem of grade inflation. Grammer claimed that he had a B average at Yale. The political science department, however, stated that he had earned a handful of B's and a majority of C's and D's"</p>
<p>The story about him (which I can't find at the moment on the transfer board) said he was 1-2 weeks shy of graduating and was graduating with whatever honor Yale gives to high gpa students.</p>
<p>That may have just been him flapping his mouth after he got caught, however. The point still stands: he did better at Yale than he did in CC.</p>
<p>In Iran, most educated people rank these schools as top 5:</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard (flat out most name-recognition)</li>
<li>MIT (best known tech school)</li>
<li>Berkeley (a lot of Iranians in California)</li>
<li>Stanford (again a lot of Iranians in Cali, most well-rounded)</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins (best for medicine)</li>
</ol>
<p>This is just how a lot of people in Iran rank American universities. Interestingly, no one cares about Yale or Princeton.</p>