<p>To wealthofinfo's point, here's an interesting piece in Newsweek about how med schools are increasingly interested in candidates with a liberal arts background:
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20534716/site/newsweek/%5B/url%5D">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20534716/site/newsweek/</a></p>
<p>I'm also in agreement with wealthofinfo. The OP of this CC thread should be a must read for all students thinking of premed:</p>
<p>You should ignore these rankings of biology programs. First, the USNews rankings are for graduate school, not undergrad. Gourman reveals nothing about methodology, even worse than USNews. Trust it at your own risk.</p>
<p>For something as common as majoring in biology and going to medical school, dozens of colleges can give you a great education. The bigger question is what sort of college experience you want. You can learn a lot about biology at Cornell or Michigan but the experience of being a student, and the nature of the biology instruction, will be different than at Williams or Pomona. All will prepare you for medical school, and turn out lots of doctors. You should focus your attention on what you are looking for in college. If you want to take lots of advanced and graduate courses, then you need a university with a large graduate program. If you want a broad liberal arts education and will be happy with very good, but limited, course selection, then consider the LAC's. </p>
<p>Think about climate, extracurriculars, etc.</p>
<p>Let me do a little sales pitch for my local institution of higher education. University of Washington biology programs are probably in the top 5-10 (can not say the same about their chemistry). Facilities are great and the amount of grant money the U gets is enormous (having BG in its backyard helps a lot). Friends' kids did all sorts of bio internships (UW,Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center, Childrens Hospital, SBRI, local biotechs, etc.) during their undergraduate studies and they all did well later on in med school. One of mine chose UW Honors and is doing great - had no trouble finding a molecular biology internship and research abroad opportunity, and now wants to go MD/PhD route (with parental "blessing" - $$$). I wish the youngest would be interested in biology :) but she wants to "pursue other interests". However, UW is a big school, so it may not be your cup of tea.</p>
<p>BB.</p>
<p>Yes, ranking Biology programs, without greater specificity, simply does no good for the potential Freshman seeking to select a college. As has been said many times in this forum, there are dozens of very good programs with 'general Biology' majors and specialization in the various life science branches. Take the good advice and select on other features that match your preferences: urban, rural, LAC, comprehensive university, football, research/internships, crew, womens' softball campus pizza delivery, etc.</p>
<p>And yes, that medical schools want a lot more versitality in their applicants these days should be well known by now. It's clear that you don't even have to be a science major to be admitted to medical school these days (before you try to correct me, be advised that yes, medical schools still want you to have the basic foundation in the life sciences, including Organic Chem I & II; good luck and thanks for playing).</p>
<p>My advice to possible pre-med majors is to evaluate the colleges' med school admit rate and by all means take a look at the med school web sites to see where the admittees are coming from and what BA/BS degrees they hold. One more thing; don't be a pre-med major.</p>
<p>While I agree that Cornell is an outstanding program, I don't think it prepares students * as well * for Medical School as say a place like ** Johns Hopkins University ** mainly because of the curriculum structure (any major at Hopkins) and the size of the school (1200/class @ JHU vs. 3,300/class @ Cornell).</p>
<p>That said I think JHU gives SO MANY research opportunities for undergrads in the sciences (bio, chem, physics, neuro) with outstanding faculty and resources. Nothing against Cornell (it's an amazing place) but in the sciences, Hopkins takes the cake in research and pre-health preparation over almost any school in the US.</p>
<p>SHS_spartan-
Rugg's are alphabetical
Gourman are by quality of program</p>
<p>Schools are not all equal in the quality of their biology programs. Even top-50 schools are not all equal in their biology programs.</p>
<p>BTW, Cornell just received a $450 million donation to build a new biology building on campus and upgrade its biology program which is already world-class. That's a huge influx of money and the benefits should be felt by 2008. I think the new building is under construction.</p>
<p>Here is a list of top national universities sorted by the proportion of bachelors graduates in biological and biomedical sciences. IPEDS 2004 data.</p>
<p>university, SAT 75th percentile, total number of bachelors graduates, number of bachelors graduates in biology, proportion of bachelors graduates in biology</p>
<p>UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-DAVIS 1280 5608 960 0.17
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-SAN DIEGO 1360 4131 661 0.16
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-IRVINE 1310 4633 594 0.13
YESHIVA UNIVERSITY 1350 575 74 0.13
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY 1570 208 24 0.12
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-LOS ANGELES 1410 7026 822 0.12
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-RIVERSIDE 1200 2893 335 0.12
UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER 1410 1174 136 0.12
BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY 1440 816 90 0.11
CORNELL UNIVERSITY-ENDOWED COLLEGES 1490 3577 393 0.11
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-BERKELEY 1450 6650 710 0.11
UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO 1530 1014 115 0.11
UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON 1390 6336 681 0.11
CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY 1420 790 77 0.1
RICE UNIVERSITY 1540 716 74 0.1
WORCESTER POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE 1390 605 62 0.1
YALE UNIVERSITY 1560 1339 133 0.1
CLARK UNIVERSITY 1305 449 40 0.09
HARVARD UNIVERSITY 1580 1797 165 0.09
MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY 1560 1194 103 0.09
SUNY AT BINGHAMTON 1340 2285 195 0.09
TEXAS A & M UNIVERSITY 1300 7914 738 0.09
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-SANTA CRUZ 1280 3053 261 0.09
UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI 1350 2155 201 0.09
COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY 1440 1418 109 0.08
DARTMOUTH COLLEGE 1550 1064 80 0.08
RUTGERS UNIVERSITY-NEW BRUNSWICK 1310 5734 451 0.08
STANFORD UNIVERSITY 1550 1713 131 0.08
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-SANTA BARBARA 1300 4564 351 0.08
UNIVERSITY OF DENVER 1230 931 76 0.08
UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND-COLLEGE PARK 1370 5959 460 0.08
UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON-SEATTLE CAMPUS 1310 7194 585 0.08
WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST LOUIS 1520 1634 124 0.08
BAYLOR UNIVERSITY 1290 2296 164 0.07
BROWN UNIVERSITY 1520 1490 103 0.07
DUKE UNIVERSITY 1530 1539 101 0.07
EMORY UNIVERSITY 1460 1480 98 0.07
MIAMI UNIVERSITY-OXFORD 1320 3784 248 0.07
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY 1240 7783 548 0.07
THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN 1340 8917 623 0.07
UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO AT BOULDER 1280 5196 349 0.07
UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT URBANA-CHAMPAIGN 1410 6763 490 0.07
INDIANA UNIVERSITY-BLOOMINGTON 1220 6172 348 0.06
IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY 1230 4523 255 0.06
JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY 1490 1288 83 0.06
PRINCETON UNIVERSITY 1560 1114 71 0.06
TUFTS UNIVERSITY 1470 1336 79 0.06
UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA 1320 5769 370 0.06
UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-COLUMBIA 1280 4086 238 0.06
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA 1510 2797 157 0.06
VIRGINIA POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE AND STATE UNIV 1290 4876 294 0.06
WAKE FOREST UNIVERSITY 1410 1000 64 0.06</p>
<p>Here is a list of top national liberal arts colleges sorted by the proportion of bachelors graduates in biological and biomedical sciences. IPEDS data 2004.</p>
<p>college, SAT 75th percentile, total bachelors graduates, number of bachelors graduates in biological sciences, proportion of bachelors graduates in biological sciences</p>
<p>WOFFORD COLLEGE 1350 247 48 0.19
AUGUSTANA COLLEGE 1300 540 93 0.17
COLORADO COLLEGE 1380 523 83 0.16
EARLHAM COLLEGE 1340 249 41 0.16
JUNIATA COLLEGE 1260 332 50 0.15
HENDRIX COLLEGE 1340 230 32 0.14
WHITMAN COLLEGE 1440 337 48 0.14
AGNES SCOTT COLLEGE 1300 204 27 0.13
ALLEGHENY COLLEGE 1300 455 61 0.13
PRESBYTERIAN COLLEGE 1240 268 36 0.13
SWARTHMORE COLLEGE 1530 364 46 0.13
GRINNELL COLLEGE 1490 367 45 0.12
KALAMAZOO COLLEGE 1380 285 34 0.12
BOWDOIN COLLEGE 1460 414 45 0.11
BRYN MAWR COLLEGE 1410 299 32 0.11
CARLETON COLLEGE 1480 455 48 0.11
DENISON UNIVERSITY 1330 514 56 0.11
KNOX COLLEGE 1340 265 30 0.11
LAFAYETTE COLLEGE 1350 541 58 0.11
OHIO WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY 1320 377 41 0.11
REED COLLEGE 1460 310 34 0.11
RHODES COLLEGE 1370 334 37 0.11
URSINUS COLLEGE 1320 361 40 0.11
WELLS COLLEGE 1230 91 10 0.11
AUSTIN COLLEGE 1340 310 32 0.1
CENTRE COLLEGE 1340 258 25 0.1
COLBY COLLEGE 1430 486 48 0.1
COLLEGE OF WOOSTER 1330 391 39 0.1
CONNECTICUT COLLEGE 1400 452 45 0.1
DAVIDSON COLLEGE 1440 426 44 0.1
HAVERFORD COLLEGE 1460 323 32 0.1
ILLINOIS WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY 1380 462 48 0.1
LAWRENCE UNIVERSITY 1340 314 32 0.1
POMONA COLLEGE 1530 394 40 0.1
SOUTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY 1360 311 31 0.1
SPELMAN COLLEGE 1140 533 54 0.1
ST MARY'S COLLEGE OF MARYLAND 1350 396 38 0.1
ALBION COLLEGE 1220 309 29 0.09
BATES COLLEGE 1420 450 41 0.09
BUCKNELL UNIVERSITY 1380 856 77 0.09
FRANKLIN AND MARSHALL COLLEGE 1360 433 39 0.09
GUSTAVUS ADOLPHUS COLLEGE 1260 703 63 0.09
MOUNT HOLYOKE COLLEGE 1380 553 52 0.09
MUHLENBERG COLLEGE 1320 595 54 0.09
SAINT OLAF COLLEGE 1340 708 67 0.09
SEWANEE: THE UNIVERSITY OF THE SOUTH 1320 313 27 0.09
WILLAMETTE UNIVERSITY 1340 420 38 0.09
WILLIAMS COLLEGE 1520 531 48 0.09
BIRMINGHAM SOUTHERN COLLEGE 1300 236 18 0.08
COLLEGE OF SAINT BENEDICT 1220 475 37 0.08
DEPAUW UNIVERSITY 1320 522 43 0.08
DICKINSON COLLEGE 1370 512 43 0.08
FURMAN UNIVERSITY 1370 643 49 0.08
HANOVER COLLEGE 1280 217 17 0.08
HOLLINS UNIVERSITY 1280 189 15 0.08
KENYON COLLEGE 1420 399 31 0.08
OCCIDENTAL COLLEGE 1360 459 39 0.08
BELOIT COLLEGE 1300 261 17 0.07
CLAREMONT MCKENNA COLLEGE 1490 288 19 0.07
HARVEY MUDD COLLEGE 1560 176 13 0.07
MACALESTER COLLEGE 1450 428 30 0.07
MILLSAPS COLLEGE 1290 225 15 0.07
OBERLIN COLLEGE 1440 722 54 0.07
SAINT JOHNS UNIVERSITY 1260 494 35 0.07
SMITH COLLEGE 1370 688 48 0.07
ST LAWRENCE UNIVERSITY 1250 499 34 0.07
UNIVERSITY OF PUGET SOUND 1355 579 39 0.07
WASHINGTON AND LEE UNIVERSITY 1450 398 28 0.07
COLGATE UNIVERSITY 1430 646 37 0.06
DREW UNIVERSITY 1320 359 23 0.06
GETTYSBURG COLLEGE 1340 597 34 0.06
HOBART WILLIAM SMITH COLLEGES 1270 446 28 0.06
SCRIPPS COLLEGE 1440 172 10 0.06
UNIVERSITY OF RICHMOND 1390 757 44 0.06
WELLESLEY COLLEGE 1460 603 38 0.06
AMHERST COLLEGE 1550 428 21 0.05
BARNARD COLLEGE 1430 600 30 0.05
COLLEGE OF THE HOLY CROSS 1350 675 35 0.05
GOUCHER COLLEGE 1290 272 14 0.05
HOPE COLLEGE 1260 638 30 0.05
MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE 1500 632 29 0.05
MILLS COLLEGE 1280 194 9 0.05
RANDOLPH-MACON COLLEGE 1210 235 12 0.05
SWEET BRIAR COLLEGE 1255 132 7 0.05
TRINITY COLLEGE 1400 492 25 0.05
VASSAR COLLEGE 1460 614 31 0.05
WABASH COLLEGE 1310 181 9 0.05
WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY 1490 722 35 0.05
WHEATON COLLEGE 1300 356 18 0.05</p>
<p>The vast majority of the Cornell money is going to the Medical Center which is about 200 miles from Ithaca in NYC. It will have little impact on undergrads in Ithaca.</p>
<p>Yes, Wealth. It is hard to argue that Hopkins has one of the best, if not the best programs that prepares students for MCATS and medical school. Every student I know that has wanted to go to medical school from Hopkins has done remarkably well on their MCATS, and have gone on to top Med programs. I will say, however, that their MCATS generally outshine their GPAs, nevertheless, the top med programs seem to want them, regardless.</p>
<p>The new Cornell Life Sciences Building has a $162 million price tag. $50 million came from one donor. The same donor gave $25 million specifically to microbiology. $250 million of the $450 million went to the medical school in NYC. Some of the money will fund the "New Life Sciences Initiative" on the Ithaca Campus. Here is more information about the new biology building and about the New Life Sciences Initiative:</p>
<p>"New building"
key to Cornell's life sciences, gets boost from Weill gift and goes for 'green' gold
By Krishna Ramanujan
Joan and Sanford Weill have given $50 million to Cornell's New Life Sciences Initiative, which will be directly applied to the Life Sciences Technology Building taking shape on the Ithaca campus.</p>
<p>The $162 million, 250,000-square-foot building, which will be named Weill Hall in recognition of the gift, is on track for completion in early 2008. The research facility will stand as the centerpiece of Cornell's New Life Sciences Initiative (NLSI) -- an overhaul of the life sciences on campus to keep pace with the genomics-led science revolution.</p>
<p>Building managers are also vying for gold -- the Gold Certification standard for sustainable design and construction practices from the U.S. Green Building Council's Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) Green Building Rating System.</p>
<p>Practices that should help qualify the building for the gold standard -- a rarity among research facilities -- include: construction debris recycling; Cornell's sustainable transportation management plan; a high amount of material manufactured within 500 miles of the building; use of recycled content in various parts of building, such as the white recycled aluminum panels on the exterior skin; green living roofs; reflectively colored sidewalks to reduce heat; and such energy conservation measures as reduced airflows in empty rooms and lighting controls.</p>
<p>The four-story building will provide scientists from across the university with cutting-edge laboratories and classrooms for interdisciplinary research and teaching in the biological, physical, engineering, computational and social sciences. It also will house the Joan and Sanford I. Weill Institute for Cell and Molecular Biology and the Department of Biomedical Engineering, which combines biology, medicine and engineering, and will serve as a catalyst for advancing collaboration between Ithaca-based and Weill Cornell Medical College faculty.</p>
<p>The building also will be home to the Department of Computational Biology, which will allow researchers to apply mathematical and statistical methods to biological sciences; a biophysics center, which will use techniques from physics and chemistry to better understand basic life processes; an incubator for start-up businesses; and the H. Laurance and Nancy L. Fuller Learning Center, a wing focused on both formal and informal exchanges among researchers, faculty and students.</p>
<p>Weill Hall, also funded by $25 million from New York state as well as gifts from alumni and others, will be the largest life sciences research facility in the state.</p>
<p>"New Life Sciences Initiative"</p>
<p>Vision for the New Life Sciences </p>
<p>Cornell University has announced a New Life Sciences Initiative (NLSI) designed to advance discovery in the genomics age. Cornell is renowned for pioneering research and teaching in the life sciences and for world-class physics, chemistry, computational science, and engineering programs. </p>
<p>Progress in the biological sciences will rely on computational and cutting-edge measurement and imaging technologies of the physical and mathematical sciences, and on a deeper understanding of the structure and interactions of large numbers of biomolecules.</p>
<p>Moreover, the new biology will be a two-way street: discoveries in molecular-scale biology will present new paradigms and opportunities for applications in physics, chemistry, and engineering, quite apart from their implications for understanding the nature of biological processes. </p>
<p>Cornell is already culturally adapted to the interdisciplinary mode of research needed to forge new discoveries in the basic life and physical sciences and in medicine. Cornell's inherently interdisciplinary graduate "field system" encompasses the broad sweep of disciplines needed for cross-cutting discovery by encouraging interdepartmental doctoral committees. </p>
<p>Interaction across disciplines is further enhanced by a large number of multidisciplinary national research centers at Cornell (e.g., Biotechnology Institute; Center for Materials Research; High Energy Synchrotron Source; Cornell Nanofabrication Facility; Nanobiotechnology Center; Theory Center; Developmental Resource for Biophysical Imaging and Opto-electronics).</p>
<p>Since 1999, the Cornell Genomics Initiative has re-vitalized Cornell's investments in molecular biology and genetics by promoting "department-open" faculty hiring, thereby setting the tone for the NLSI. Because innovation must be founded upon excellence in traditional departments in the life and physical sciences and engineering, the NLSI will strive to strengthen existing premier departments and programs as well as promote new and collaborative initiatives.</p>
<p>Cornell foresees hiring at least 50 new faculty into life science-related areas as part of the NLSI. The hiring plan will be guided by three organizing principles that broadly define the strategic mission of the NLSI: first, at the foundation, Genomic/Proteomic Biology involves understanding the information encoded in the basic DNA, RNA, and protein molecules of life. This sequence information contains the constructive rules for the building blocks of life itself. Additionally, physicists and computer scientists are intrigued by use of this information for applications such as computation and materials synthesis. </p>
<p>Second, the translation of these codes into biological entities is the province of Systems Biology. Biological systems encompass structure and function at all levels of organization and all size scales, from molecules to cells to tissues and organs to individual organisms to populations of organisms within ecosystems. These elements can be described as an interacting network that needs to be understood and computationally modeled. Thus, investigation of biological systems and networks draws as much from computer science and engineering as from biology.</p>
<p>Hence, the third organizing principle is interaction, which is the modus operandi of the NLSI: the goal is to further catalyze a network of campus-wide research and educational activities to continue to bring together biologists, physicists, chemists, computational scientists, and engineers in an atmosphere where traditional departmental and college boundaries become secondary to the intellectual work itself.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That said I think JHU gives SO MANY research opportunities for undergrads in the sciences (bio, chem, physics, neuro) with outstanding faculty and resources. Nothing against Cornell (it's an amazing place) but in the sciences, Hopkins takes the cake in research and pre-health preparation over almost any school in the US.
[/quote]
Oh, I don't know. Cornell biology has quite a lot going for it- a marine</a> lab, an ornithology</a> lab, and a vet</a> school being just a few examples. </p>
<p>Not that I'm picking on Hopkins in particular- MIT, Carnegie Mellon, and others have similarly narrow (molecular) biology programs.</p>
<p>As for LAC's, Holy Cross is building a $60 million science complex. Holy Cross has strong pre-med reputation.</p>
<p>In the last 10 years Wisconsin has invested close to $500 Million in life sciences buildings with another $500 Million coming in the next 5 years or so. And they don't waste $$$$ building ultra fancy Ivy style buildings. It also has the most bioscience research funding of any school.
Some of the most recent buildings include</p>
<p><a href="http://www.news.wisc.edu/14120%5B/url%5D">http://www.news.wisc.edu/14120</a></p>
<p>Warblersrule - although they are related, Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine has little to do with Biology @ Cornell. They are separate for the most part, and I doubt as a biology student there you could do much in terms of academics at Cornell CVM, although the Vertebrate Genomics program looks promising.</p>
<p>With that said, Cornell arguably has the best college of veterinary medicine in the nation, and I hope to apply to their dual DVM/Ph.D program when the time comes. I have a very long way to go. </p>
<p>Also with that said, Princeton already built and established the Lewis-Sigler Institute for Integrative Genomics as well as the Lewis Thomas, Schultz, and Moffett Laboratories long before Cornell laid down the blueprints it seems. So much for pioneering. You can check it out at <a href="http://www.genomics.princeton.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://www.genomics.princeton.edu/</a>.</p>
<p>Here is a little comparison among four schools. Princeton has about 100 graduates in Life Sciences each year whereas Cornell and Wisconsin have over 900. The large majority of bachelors degrees in life sciences at Johns Hopkins are in nursing, not biological sciences. The SAT 75th percentile at Princeton is 1590. The SAT 75th percentile at Johns Hopkins and Cornell is about 1490. At Wisconsin, the SAT 75th percentile is about 1340 (ACT equivalent). So, the SATs at Wisconsin are about 150 points lower than at Cornell and Johns Hopkins and about 250 points lower than at Princeton.</p>
<p>school, total bachelors, life sciences bachelors %, biology bachelors %, SAT 7th percentile
Cornell University 3534 26.6% 11.2% 1490
Johns Hopkins University 1516 38.3% 7.1% 1490
Princeton University 1125 8.8% 8.8% 1590
University of Wisconsin-Madison 6383 20.4% 11.2% 1340</p>
<p>Reading this thread, I find it remarkable that no physicians appear to have weighed in so I'll step up to the plate. </p>
<p>Im a senior faculty member at a well known research-based medical college. The idea that there is a "best pre-med program" at one particular university is grossly absurd and propagates longstanding misconceptions. The best candidate for medical school is someone whose grades, course selection, MCATs, and extracurriculars support that he/she has the intellect, drive, and focus to succeed as a physician. That success may ultimately come as a research physician, as a clinician, or in a related administrative field. All schools look for a diverse class, though their skew will vary depending on a particular research or clinical bent. Looking at percent admits to medical schools made public by a university tells you nothing of the number of students that had already abandoned pre-med paths (and never applied) due to the intense competition of freshman/sophomore year courses. Looking at the feeder colleges to top medical schools is also misleading given the great variability in absolute numbers of medical school applicants from different undergrad programs.</p>
<p>What medical school committee members would advise, across the board, is that you select a school and a course of study that will challenge and stimulate you. Once there, you will need to prove your worth. That is most likely to happen if the school is chosen based on fit rather than some mistaken notion that a particular college will more successfully promote your medical school candidacy.</p>
<p>It has been shown here many times that the ACT SAT equivalent table is BS. Look at the average ACT and SAT score for any school and you see a much lower equivalent ACT score. ACT is a one sitting deal and costs about 50 SAT points from best combined scores.</p>
<p>Bala-
The challenge is to narrow the field to a few (3-12) schools that optimize your chances of getting into a school that helps you reach your goals, whatever your goals might be. If your only goal is to get into medical school, then working your butt off at Podunk might earn you a 35 on the MCATs and a ticket to med school. But, if you also want to go somewhere that will help you grow intellectually, socially, etc. and if you are also concerned about your quality of life for 4 years, then you should look at various qualities of the school.</p>
<p>First, you have to identify schools with a good program in the field you want to study. That is a lot of what this thread has been about. Then, I think the most reliable way to initially narrow the field is to look at selectivity. Apply where you will be among students who will challenge you. Then look at things like university versus LAC, distance from home, urban/suburban/small town/rural, reputation, etc. </p>
<p>You made it sound like it doesn't matter where you go to college.</p>