<p>We (I, my wife and Daughter) just got back after an exhausting round of overnight visits- two last week, a break and then two this week. Can't take any more! We visited Bowdoin, Oberlin, Grinnell and Carleton. I thought the decision would be fairly easy for my daughter, and it almost was, but not quite.
Bowdoin- arrogant admissions officer, who told all of us that we should feel lucky she has been accepted (not in such words, but left little room for confusion). Now, I agree it is a fine college, but it is our turn to choose now! Lot of talk of being "steeped in history". On the whole, not a comforting experience.
Oberlin- here is where the difficulty in decision starts. More below.
Grinnell- Nice, friendly, intelligent kids. A bit defensive about their college's reputation. Really difficult to get to and back from for someone in the east. On the whole a very good college, large endowment (hopefully this will translate to money spent on students), but did not offer anything we could not get at Oberlin or Carleton.
Carleton- reminds of a top, well-run east coast LAC(someone has said something similar on the carleton forum). Friendly students, very focused on academics (" we like classrooms!"). Off-beat enough to keep it interesting. We listened to an a capella boys group. They were just amazing. We were shown around the arboretum and the tall grass prairie by a Biology major. His eyes were shining with enthusiasm as he explained some obscure details about flood plane forests! I remember thinking "if only I had been inspired like that in my college". My daughter liked the college, felt she would be welcome, but was a little nervous whether she can cut it among all these interesting, intelligent kids.
Oberlin was a different experience.My daughter loved all the music (she did not apply to the conservatory, but is passable at violin and piano). Met students who were really different, but respectful. Lot of openly gay students, pot smoking, possibly other drugs in the dorms. My daughter felt excited, wide-awake, welcomed. But also a little scared.
So, Oberlin or Carleton? Romantic college with possible dangers VS a little less romance with less danger? Both are fine academic institutions, Carleton may have an edge here (in my opinion).
I am not sure what I would say if she asked me- she will, I know. I certainly want her to succeed and be safe, but dont want to kill her spirit. I am really confused.
Any thoughts on this?</p>
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felt she would be welcome, but was a little nervous whether she can cut it among all these interesting, intelligent kids.....
My daughter felt excited, wide-awake, welcomed. But also a little scared.
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Feeling a little nervous or scared may not be a bad thing. May be a normal sign of transition and challenging herself to new opportunities. I always tried to remind my son that a little bit of anxious feeling is a part of opening yourself to new experiences - not something to be avoided.</p>
<p>You and she might try this <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=51596%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=51596</a> in case it helps.</p>
<p>It seems Bowdoin is out. But I would comment that the Admissions Office is just a moment in time and perhaps not reflective of the experience of actually being there. A wonderful Admissions Office does not necessarily mean wonderful folks elsewhere and vice versa.</p>
<p>Good luck. </p>
<p>Re the relative danger of the two institutions - there will be kids flirting with the dangers of drugs/alcohol at both (really all) schools. She will find "her people" at both. If she is not one to flirt with these dangers, she will not have to at either place, I think.</p>
<p>I don't know enough to comment on Grinnell except that it has an excellent reputation and is well endowed; this translates to lots of opportunities for students.</p>
<p>When we visited Bowdoin for admissions sessions, we met a very very friendly and welcoming member of the admissions comittee. My S visited on his own after being admitted and seems to have met a friendly adrep as well. He visited outside of the regular admit weekend because of scheduling conflict, so the adrep made sure there was someone to greet him at the bus station and so on. Whether or not the admissions office was well run and friendly, I would rather go by the impression the students and other folks gave, because these are the folks with whom your child will interact for the next few years.</p>
<p>An Oberlin graduate told me that when she was a student there, new faculty were told to purchase furniture that was sturdy and "student friendly" as profs were obviously expected to frequently entertain their students in their own houses. I recently met another Oberlin graduate who told me how supportive the faculty was there. She called her faculty advisor by her first name.</p>
<p>I once visited Carleton and had the same impression of wonderfully close student faculty relations. The students were enthusiastic about their classes. They were also more socially conservative than I imagine Oberlin students to be.</p>
<p>I would think that, in terms of academics, the two schools are quite comparable, as is Bowdoin. I would suggest choosing more in terms of geographical and social fit than academics.</p>
<p>Regarding the arrogant admissions officer, I would just remind that this is perhaps their most difficult time of year. Having agonized all spring over applicants, now they have to wait and see who picks them in return...it's kind of like trying to chat with an accountant on April 14. I agree with Marite, they are not the barometer of what a college feels like--even on a good day.</p>
<p>Oh, just let her choose. You are in the catbird seat. Yeah, there's probably more pot at Oberlin than at Carleton, but Carleton has been wrestling with a "higher than average" binge drinking problem in recent years. I like 'em all (for different reasons, and for ME, I like Grinnell best), but there's not a bad decision to be made, so just make sure it is hers.</p>
<p>(P.S. If she expects to actually DO a lot of music in her undergraduate years, Oberlin might be the worst choice of the four, as so many of the opportunities will be filled by their most capable students.)</p>
<p>Warning - newbie Carleton parent here.</p>
<p>If your daughter is interested in performing, she would probably be welcome at Carleton. There will also be good opportunities for attending performances at St. Olaf, which does have an excellent music program.</p>
<p>As for academics, one of the things my daughter likes best about Carleton is the non-competitive atmosphere. I would also think that if your daughter is strong enough academically to be accepted to Carleton, Bowdoin, Grinnell, and Oberlin then she will be able to handle the classes.</p>
<p>Great choices your D has. When she asks, I think the best response may be I am not sure, what do you think?</p>
<p>Lucky girl, wonderful choices. You are surely so very proud. I agree with the comment about Oberlin not being the best place for an accomplished musician who is not a music major, unless she only wants to be in the audience. Doubtless the financial considerations have included all the logistical costs. Good luck to the whole family! Lorelei</p>
<p>Neverthere,</p>
<p>I work at MIT (to explain the location in my profile) but I went to Oberlin. The experience was, in some ways, the best four years of my life. Though I was an english/writing and environmental studies double major, I went there in part to be surrounded by music (the influence of the conservatory) and it did not let me down. Though I was not "conservatory material," I took a bunch of music classes, sang in an a cappella group for four years, and attended classical, jazz, and/or electronic music concerts or recitals at least 4 times a week (and even got to play in some). In a word, the environment was inspirational. Based on my experience, music opportunities abound at Oberlin, for college and conservatory students alike.</p>
<p>To address your other question, there is definitely a pot contingent at Oberlin, but it's the sort of thing that's there if you want it to be and wholly avoidable if you don't. One of the things I liked best about the place is that no one judged you for who you were or what you were into - there were no cliques and no pressure. I have yet to live in a place that comes close to demonstrating the mutual respect I found in the Oberlin community.</p>
<p>I would be more than happy to speak with you or your daughter via email or phone if you have specific questions - just contact me through the CC email link.</p>
<p>My advice: go for the romance. :-) But of course I am biased...</p>
<p>Ben</p>
<p>Oh, and I'm in touch with many of my profs to this day. My advisor and his family attended my wedding 5 years after I graduated.</p>
<p>I am really thankful to all of you. I saw my daughter lost in thought on our way home. She articulated her difficulty in deciding between Oberlin and Carleton over dinner at the airport hotel last night (with surprising clarity, I thought). So far, I have avoided forcing my opinions into this process, but that tempatation is coming, I can see!
driver, yes, I agree that the admission officer at Bowdoin should not be the deal breaker. It was a wet morning, our first visit, and his attitude really set the wrong tone. It went downhill from there. I wish it was otherwise.
mini, lorelei- yes, I had not thought of that, being a non-conservatory student may mean less opportunity for performance compared to other LACs. But Oberlin does let non-con students audition for placement at lower levels. But what really inspired my daughter was, as benjones puts it, being sorrounded by music. She went to a jazz performance- not planned or scheduled, just a jam session by some seniors. A girl next door in the dorm was playing the flute at night! But then, someone else walked in and paid one of the hosts for some magic mushrooms! My wife had a fit when she heard this next day and wanted to leave right away.
benjones, thank you. I will pass your message onto my daughter.</p>
<p>I'm with Mini; I don't see anything but four great options.</p>
<p>Just as a datapoint for us old fogeys. There is apparently some kind of new-fangled nationwide college "tradition" that calls for smoking pot at exactly 4:20 pm on April 20th. I'll defer to any hipsters in the crowd to supply the roots of this tradition. But, anyone doing a college visit on April 20th might take that into account as probably an atypical college afternoon.</p>
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So far, I have avoided forcing my opinions into this process, but that tempatation is coming, I can see!
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I think that's the very best approach. Your daughter probably wants some time to mull things over, and may seek feedback from other sources, such as her friends or teachers. As I am sure you know, anything a parent says can backfire anyway. (If mom/dad like school A, there must be something wrong with it.)</p>
<p>Disclaimer:
Son #1 chose Grinnell over Oberlin
Son #2 chose another entirely different type of school over Carleton</p>
<p>2 Cents:
Grinnell provides a compelling mix of the other two. If the daughter can't decide between them, throw it back in the mix- my son has made the 11,000 mile journey there alone 4 times now and has interesting stories from each trip!!</p>
<p>Interesteddad, I checked on the 4/20 thing:
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In American culture, the number 420 (pronounced four-twenty) relates to the consumption of cannabis and elements of its associated culture. The exact origin of the term is unknown. Marijuana users gather on April 20 ("4/20" in U.S. dating shorthand) every year to celebrate and consume marijuana.
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From Wikipedia <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_(cannabis_culture%5B/url%5D)">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_(cannabis_culture)</a></p>
<p>The Wikipedia entry goes on to catalog various possible reasons for this.</p>
<p>I'd also note that by the time you posted your advisory, April 20th was already two days ago. You probably lost track of time while trapped in the vortex of the Duke lacrosse team rape thread. ;)</p>
<p>I can second benjones's memories: there are many, many opportunities at Oberlin for non-Conservatory students to be involved in music-making as well as -partaking. For example: there are five choruses, three of which are predominantly composed of College students, a string ensemble and a wind ensemble which are predominantly College students, dozens of chamber ensembles open to College students, etc., etc.</p>
<p>And he's also right about the drug issue. There are many Oberlin students who neither drink nor use drugs of any sort, and they are completely accepted and supported by the campus culture. Your mushroom experience could have happened at any college in the country, aside from maybe Bob Jones University.</p>
<p>The fact is that there are not huge differences between Grinnell, Carleton, and Oberlin (apart perhaps from the presence of the Conservatory at Oberlin). My nephew's choice came down to those three, and he chose Oberlin and was very happy there. But your daughter needs to make up her own mind.</p>
<p>Carleton has the best reputation academically, and it might be better for grad/prof school admissions.</p>
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I'd also note that by the time you posted your advisory, April 20th was already two days ago.
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</p>
<p>I thought the original dad had said his daughter just came back from overnights, concerned about the drug use at one of the schools. I posted on the odd chance that she may have gotten a misimpression from a quirk of the calendar.</p>
<p>As others have pointed out, there are ample performance opportunities for non-music majors at Oberlin. In addition to the permanent groups already mentioned, there are a lot of student-run groups that pop up out of nowhere, last for a year or two and then (usually) disappear. Daughter recently spent spring break playing paid gigs at other colleges and a club or two, and she was the only conservatory student of the five members in the group.</p>
<p>Taking lessons on an instrument or voice can be a bit more difficult for non-majors at Oberlin. Just about anyone can study with a junior or senior conservatory student for very little cost. One must audition to get into a faculty member's studio, and the schedules of the more popular teachers are pretty much filled by conservatory students.</p>
<p>It is finally done! My daughter told me today she wants to go to Carleton. I tried to discuss it a bit further, but she wanted no discussion! Thanks to all of you for your time and advice.</p>