<p>id say to become an engineer is easier. if i can do it you can.</p>
<p>all one needs to do is just survive the engineering classes as an undergraduate and bam you are an engineer. but the thing with medical school is that you need like straight A's in your undergraduate work to get in.</p>
<p>so yeah, if someone like me was able to fall through the cracks and become an engineer than anybody can be one. the same cannot be said about becoming a doctor though.</p>
<p>UriA702, colin was not talking about experienced professionals, he was talking about undergrads and entry level positions.</p>
<p>As for the manhattan vs Cooper Union, you really cant say that, as there are other factors. </p>
<p>Lets say, a Guy with a 3.8 from Copper Union who worked hard on his gpa, vs a guy from city college(you UriA702) who had a 3.0 and had 4 years of civil experience with an internship at Turner Construction.</p>
<p>Who will win when they both go to Shmerykowsky for a job. Guess what man, its you who is going to win hands down. </p>
<p>My resume is impressive, who's to say its not. Like I have said before, I don't need a school to make my resume important. I make my own moves and get my own jobs. Ypu are wrong saying that no employer will care, as I had job offers from IBM, Atto, Cisco, DataMirror, Fair Issac, Citrix, and Novell. Sop dont go telling folks that the gpa is everything. I had a 2.84 my man, nothing spectacular. </p>
<p>Me working for IBM is not exception to any or the rule. The rule you seem to be missing is as follows:</p>
<p>Work as Hard as you can, and learn as much as you can. If you work hard enough anything, and I mean anything is possible. Dont let others make your moves, make them yourself.</p>
<p>I am pure fact of all of this, and I hope that any others reading this understand that if you have dreams to be the next big engineer, the school you go to means jack ****. Its all on you.</p>
<p>why are you giving the guy from city college four years of experience and the guy from cooper union nothing? that's extremely stupid. What? The guy from cooper union is sitting in his apartment over the summer eating and watching tv? if you're debating the importance of prestige ONLY, all other things have to be equal.</p>
<p>If everything were equal then prestige would of course matter. Though my point is not that. My point is that prestige is not everything, if the person from a less prestigious college has more experience, then that experience could and most likely would override the prestige.</p>
<p>Thats my point, that prestige is not the 100% deciding factor as UriA702 would have us believe/</p>
<p>I'm not saying all things equal prestige makes no difference because obviously it does. I was referencing Uri's claim, "Your ability to engineer well is a direct result of what school you go to." There are many other deciding factors.</p>
<p>I apologize if somebody has already beaten me to this observation, but the question makes little sense. I would estimate that average rates of success in either field, for people of similar IQ's, is probably an even 50-50 split. Depending on how you define success, that is.</p>
<p>UriA702 & others, I am just going to leave this debate alone for now on. I feel experience is more important than prestige. I feel there are other factors when hiring en employee than the prestige of the school he went to.</p>
<p>Obviousily you guys feel different and thats fine, but I wont partake in anymore debate of the topic. I am just a tad surprised that you UriA702 don't go to a top ranked school, you actually go to quite the opposite and still have the mentality that your education is inferior to those who go to schools that cost $50K a year. Have some pride in yourself man.</p>
<p>Thats all from me.</p>
<p>ALL I SAID WAS GOING TO A GOOD SCHOOL WILL GET YOU A BETTER JOB ENTRY-LEVEL. AND SINCE I586 DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENTRY-LEVEL MEANS, IT MEANS WITH NO EXPERIENCE THATS WHY ITS CALLED ENTRY-LEVEL. your stupid theory that a student from a community college WILL GET A BETTER JOB THAN A MIT graduate is not true no matter what point you try to bring up. If better schools didn't offer more opportunities to research and network with people in the industry NOBODY WOULD PAY TO GO THERE. Yet # of applicants increase each year and acceptance rate decreases every year</p>
<p>I don't care what you have to say about the subject. I go to City College, a student from berkley with similar credentials is gonna get a better job than I am and there's no arguing about it</p>
<p>i586 - City College may not have the prestige of Columbia's FU Foundation but that doesn't stop the largest construction management firm in the world (Bovis Lend Lease) from recruiting there. They do recruit at Columbia as well, and I will tell you one thing from speaking to their recruiters. They are far more impressed by a Columbia student with a 3.2 tan a city college student with a 3.6.</p>
<p>Yep and popularity truly means better.</p>
<p>Go to Circuit city/Bestbuy and buy Monster Cables, the most popular brand of cables. Then go to AVforums and ask AV techs and AV Gurus how crappy Monster cables are. They will all tell you the same, while Monster still sell the most.</p>
<p>Go buy a cheap pocket knife at gas station, then go and ask a knife collector what a good knife is. They sure as hell wont recommend a gas station knife. BTW I am a knife collector and I would recommend Strider and Chris Reeve Knives, along with Spyderco and Benchmade.</p>
<p>Go to Toys R us and buy a Bike, then go to a Bike shop and ask them how the bike compares to what they have to offer, they will think you were a joke.</p>
<p>Go Buy a Honda Civic or Accord which are by far the most popular cars and to think they are the best. Yeah right.</p>
<p>Again Popularity doesn't mean better, it usually means consumer stupidity. Same goes for Colleges.</p>
<p>Actually, popularity generally correlates to quality.</p>
<p>actually read my post payne, your just another fool if you think otherwise.</p>
<p>Look at the iPod, there are tons and tons of higher quality music devices, though the iPod is still the best seller. It has lackluster audio quality and a bad interface.</p>
<p>Go buy the best or most expensive pair of Headphones or speakers you can buy at any consumer store(bestbuy, walmart, circuit city, guitar center), then go ask ask a audiophile at Head-fi.or or Hydrogenaudio.org, go into a high end Music store like "Sound by Singer" in NYC <a href="http://www.soundbysinger.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.soundbysinger.com/</a> and ask them how great of a product your last purchase was. again like I said in a earlier post, consumer products are crap. they are made crappy because they can sell it and people don't know any better.</p>
<p>The majority of people choose to buy a windows OS with there computer, the majority of people also choose to buy either a dell, Compaq, hp or gateway, does this make these products the best. Hell no far from it. There are tons of better operating systems compared to windows and many free and easier to use than windows and there are also many better brands of computers including IBM/Lenovo, Asus and Sony.</p>
<p>Consumers as a whole in America are more likely to buy canned or packaged food and drinks, rather than natural or organic. again Im sure they know quality. lol</p>
<p>if ya haven't noticed I can keep going and going/</p>
<p>"Go Buy a Honda Civic or Accord which are by far the most popular cars and to think they are the best. Yeah right."</p>
<p>Yea but most people would go for a more expensive and nicer car if they could afford it, just like most people would go for a more expensive/prestigous college if they could afford it and get in. Why? Because they are better.</p>
<p>The argument your trying to make is laughably absurd. On average, someone who goes to a more prestigous college is going to have more/better opportunities. Exceptions are called exceptions for a reason. Who the hell cares about these guys that dropout and startup wildly successful companies, the odds of this are poor. I go to UF, a pretty good school, but I'd be going to MIT if I could get in.</p>
<p>The point I am trying to make is against UriA702</p>
<p>"Your ability to engineer well is a direct result of what school you go to."</p>
<p>This is just not true. I can garentee you that there are engineers out there who never went to college, let along even graduated from HS that will out engineer any MIT grad. Its stupid to think otherwise.</p>
<p>I never said going to a more expensive school doesn't provide more opportunities, I agree it does. But again it is not the only defining point. Saying that you will be a bad engineer because you went to a school ranked #110 is unfair, who is to say that person will not do something phenomenal. you cant say he/she wont, so saying that you can only be a good engineer if you go to a good school is unfair.</p>
<p>
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This is just not true. I can garentee you that there are engineers out there who never went to college, let along even graduated from HS that will out engineer any MIT grad. Its stupid to think otherwise.
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</p>
<p>You can't become an engineer without a 4-year bachelor's degree, much less dropping out of High School. </p>
<p>As for the correlation between one's ability as an engineer and the school he/she attended, I can't talk about industry because I have no experience in the field, but, for graduate studies/research, the school one graduated from has a major impact on his/her ability to succeed (top ranked schools tend to be much stronger in engineering theory/science, which makes a lot of difference when you are pursuing an advanced degree). I also tend to think that the quality of the faculty, as well as the overall resources (labs, facilities, etc.) are significantly better in top ranked schools. Last but not least, prestige and networking matter a lot in the real world and, of course, graduates of top schools have a major advantage in those areas compared to people coming from lower ranked institutions.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, students who say that "school doesn't really matter" and that "you learn nothing in school anyway" are usually those who either are failing their classes or go to really bad colleges. Sorry to be blunt about it, but that's how I feel.</p>
<p>
[quote]
</p>
<p>You can't become an engineer without a 4-year bachelor's degree, much less dropping out of High School.
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</p>
<p>yeah, sure they cant, who told ya that?. just like like cant become a mechanic or a electrician or a stock broker without going to school.</p>
<p>I know from pure experience in my family that one can become a engineer with no HS education. My Uncle works at Cisco dealing with wireless sensor networks, my other uncle works at GM in Atlanta as a engineer that deals specifically with the flow through pipes. My father is a master machinist who designs Transmissions for Eaton.</p>
<p>None ever graduated from HS.</p>
<p>It' funny how you compared cars and headphones to education. The name of school really matters and what really matters more is your performance in school. A lot of students in general want to work in Investment banking companies and these companies require student from good schools and their GPAs have to be not less than 3.5.</p>
<p>GPA is very imperative if someone wants to be successful in his or her career.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I know from pure experience in my family that one can become a engineer with no HS education
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<p>Some people in the IT industry call themselves "engineers" even though they may not hold a B.S degree. That's usually the case when a person is certified as a so-called "systems engineer" or equivalent by some software company like Microsoft. A certificate like that however, no matter how much professional experience a person may have, normally does not enable one to seek registration as a licensed Professional Engineer (P.E) in most states and, therefore, is not legally considered an engineering qualification. On the academic side on the other hand, most master's and Ph.D programs in engineering won't accept applicants who have not earned a B.S. before. </p>
<p>Outside the IT industry, there are also some professionals who do engineering-like jobs without a 4-years college education, but I believe they are usually referred to as "technologists" or "technicians" rather than engineers. I am not necessarily doubting you, but I find it hard to believe that someone without a High School diploma would be allowed to use the title of engineer in industry.</p>
<p>i586, assuming what you claim is true, that is the exception and not the rule. If you're hiring somebody, would you rather have an ABET accredited college grad or a h.s. dropout assuming you know nothing else about these 2 candidates.</p>
<p>bruno do you even read my posts, I wonder. none of them work IT.</p>
<p>ken why would I lie, and for what reason. I never said that any of them went to there respected companies and applied for a job as a engineer. All of them started at lower positions, over time proved there skills and eventually all ended up with the title as a engineer. All of them work with all other engineers and none of them are P.E.'s. so it is defiantly possible. It doesn't matter where you know your stuff from as long as you know it. and no they are not technologists. </p>
<p>You don't need a formal education to do any job, while its a plus its not necessary. The only time you need a formal education is when there is governments regulation. To say somebody that went to college is going to engineer better than a self taught person cant be proved. All I have to say is look at all the brilliant scientists who never went to school.</p>
<p>I said I was done here before and I lied, but now I am.</p>
<p>I can believe that it's possible to do over a long period of time, but it's not the ideal path to take, nor is it an easy route. Given the choice between dropping out of high school and taking a lower position or going to college for a degree and taking a position as an engineer, you'll be hard pressed to find anybody who will take the former over the latter. </p>
<p>i586, I think the problem we have here is you've been using exceptions to the rule in your points rather than the general rule. Sure it's possible to do anything without a formal education, but these cases are rare. Employers would rather hire a college grad rather than someone who's worked with the company in lower positions, unless he or she has shown EXCEPTIONAL abilities. An average college grad will get the job, while an average lower level employee will not.</p>