<p>i586,</p>
<p>The stories you have told on this board are all possible, people just take objection because you try to pass them off as common occurrences.</p>
<p>while I know they may not be common, they are all true.</p>
<p>The reason I take objection to the majority of the posts here is because you guys are saying to new engineering hopefuls that</p>
<p>"If ya don't go to a Top 20 school you will suck as a engineer and its not worth the time"</p>
<p>This is furthest from the actual truth. All I am trying to do show folks that not everybody needs to fit into the norm and not everybody must go to a prestigious school and have a high gpa. There are ways and many of them to excel at what we do. Like me, I blow at tests and stuff, but I am pretty good at the research, projects and love labs. Just because I am bad at tests doesn't mean I am going to be any less of a engineer than the rest of you guys. Just because I have a 2.8 from a semi decent public U, doesn't plague me for life as a bad engineer. </p>
<p>what you guys need to remember is all I am trying to do is show other options. I did research and was always the top of my class in labs. To be able to do the labs and the research you have to know the material. If you don't know the material you cant do the hand on work and its kinda hard to fake labs and research.</p>
<p>so if I still know the material, but know it a different way does it make the material any less valuable. I don't think so. My employer, and all my professors all seemed not to think so either.</p>
<p>When I went for my first interview at IBM, my Transcript was the last thing they looked at. They asked for my CV first and said I was qualified. Then I actually got tested. I was told to solve a few problems in any language I want on a dry erase board. I was then told to on printer paper, to write a full app which did a few tasks that I was assigned in first the language nemerle and another smaller app in ML. These weren't really a problem for me and they were trying to see what I knew and what I didn't. They didn't give me a test with multiple choice, nor a problem set. They gave me a task on a lab type setting. Of the 12 others who were there, you wouldn't believe how many could do none of the tasks asked of them, which I guess is ok because alot of what they asked except the ML would have never been taught in a undergrad situation. I guess I impressed them enough as I got the job. Only after I got to round 3 of the interview process and there were only me and two others left did they ask to see my transcript. IU dont think they really cared all to much about it. They were much more interested in my CV with all my research and letters from professors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"If ya don't go to a Top 20 school you will suck as a engineer and its not worth the time"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think anyone is saying that, i586. People are just saying that you are more at an advantage at the top schools. And this is transparently obvious -- better students, better resources, better professors, and better career placement (just take a look at the top school's career fairs, it's ridiculous). This is on average, so don't get angry and come back with your own success story because you are clearly a minority.</p>
<p>The problem that everyone has with your posts is that you are recommending absolutely foolish paths. </p>
<p>You say that professors are idiots, and that you never go to class. That's fine for you, but keep that to yourself. There's an extremely high correlation between grades, and overall success (including getting research and letters of recommendation) from students that go to class and actively communicate with their professors. </p>
<p>You say that grades don't matter. Again, there's a strong correlation between individuals that get high grades and the quality of the jobs they take. In previous posts, you have said there's only one person in your class that has a high GPA (3.8, I believe you say). In other posts, you go on to say that everyone with a high GPA that you know is an idiot and don't know how to solve problems. Your problem is that you take a single anecdotal piece of evidence (usually exaggerated from the perspective of everyone else), and make that a rule. </p>
<p>You say that schools don't matter, but like the GPA issue, there's a high correlation between graduates of the top schools and the quality of the jobs they take. If you don't believe that, think about it from an economic standpoint. It's not some anomaly that MIT and Stanford (and other top 10 schools) are highly sought-after. It's because they produce results. Whether its the education itself, or the facilities, or the networking, it's clear that top schools produce top engineers. Why do you think the average salary of a Wharton MBA grad is over 160k? Why do you think all of the top companies have partners from the top 5 schools (ie. <a href="http://www.greylock.com/team/%5B/url%5D">http://www.greylock.com/team/</a>)? It's not a coincidence. Sure, part of it is certainly the networking and the old boy's club. If the benefits weren't there, people wouldn't work so hard to get good grades and go to these top schools. They are top schools for a reason. Sure, it's foolish to think that a #1 school is always better than a #2 school, but it's also clear that a #5 school is going to give you better opportunities than a #55 school; they simply increase your chances of getting a better job. </p>
<p>When you go to top schools, get top grades, the probability that you will get a top job and go places is clearly much higher. What is the probability that you will get a good engineering job without a college degree (like you imply is possible)? It's well below 1%. Companies are getting more risk-averse, and they want guaranteed performance. No one is going to take a chance on some guy off the street. Plus, you'd be hard pressed to find a handful of individuals who went on to be prominent engineers without a formal technical education. They might be tinkerers, but they aren't engineers. No one is going to hire you to develop a product if you don't have an engineering degree. For you to suggest otherwise is foolish. </p>
<p>So, in summary, people are getting upset at you for saying things that are unfounded, and not the recommended way of getting ahead. No one has said that you're automatically a bad engineer if you didn't go to MIT, or that you can't get a job if you don't have a 3.0. What people are saying is that your chances are greatly improved of getting a good job if you go to a good school. Your chances of getting ahead in life are better if you get good grades. </p>
<p>It's all about probabilities. No one is saying that going to MIT will land you a $250k/yr job, and no one is saying that if you go to some state school that you will be doomed as a poor engineer. But I'll still put my $20 on the MIT grad.</p>
<p>Having now spent time in both the high and above average GPA clubs, I can say for certain that GPA matters a wee bit. I don't think that it's as important as people here tend to think, but it's certainly a powerful signal when it comes time to hire someone.</p>
<p>thats not my point, my point is there are other factors that determine whether one will be a good engineer, other than grades. I never said going to a better school was bad, or going to a worse school was better. I never said there was a chance a $55 was better than a #5. I actually said it would bring more success.</p>
<p>If you re-read my posts maybe you will see this, I am not going to repeat everything.</p>
<p>As for being a engineer without a degree, its actually more common than you think. a lot more common. Everybody I mentioned in my family is considered a Engineer by the place they work, they are not considered thinkers nor technologists. You say its a foolish suggestion to think an employer whom promoted a person through over 40 years, to then become a engineer. to be able to develop or engineer a product. I would say you are a fool to think its not possible. That persons guaranteed to know more about the topic than any recent grad, it would be impossible for them to know more as they don't have the experience. Its highly possible and it happens all the time.</p>
<p>I dont need toi preach the recommenced way to do anything. I know from experience grades are not the most important factor, I will continue to say so and to support my claims, as I know they are true.</p>
<p>you say you will put your $20 on that MIT student, but thats if we consider them equal. If the person from a lesser know school has research, and a large amount of experience that looks a lot better to a employer. again I know this from personal experience.</p>
<p>Hire the guy from a state school who can come in with 3 years of on the job experience from internships. You dont need to train him, he will start working right away and knows the routine. All the major mistakes he will make are already worked out. This is byfar the most expensive time for a employer.</p>
<p>Or hire the MIT guy whom needs to be trained and have a slew of other events happen before he is settled.</p>
<p>I would hire the state school kid, as he will make me more money.</p>
<p>i586,</p>
<p>The problem with your argument is that it's inherently riskier and tends to lead to smaller returns in the beginning. You're always better off hedging your bets and going for the higher returns early on, simply because of the nature of money itself.</p>
<p>Granted, loans complicate matters, but good grades and a good diploma are an excellent way to hedge.</p>
<p>How could it lead to smaller returns in the beginning, I am making more off of him because I dont have to train him , he is already trained.</p>
<p>I'm not referring to the hirer. I'm referring to the hired. </p>
<p>It makes sense to you to pay less. It makes sense to him to make more.</p>
<p>If you don't have a degree you're not an "engineer" you are just someone who happens to do what engineers do. Are people who murder others and sell their organs Surgeons?</p>
<p>who says that somebody with a engineering degree is a engineer. I have never thought of some kid who can get a engineering degree is a actual engineer. Id call you a engineer once you have that title by your employer or you pass your PE. as I know that anybody can get a engineering degree.</p>
<p>does having a degree in Physics mean you are a Physicist? </p>
<p>does having a degree in Math mean you are a Mathematician?</p>
<p>does having a degree in Engineering mean you are a Engineer?</p>
<p>All of the answers to these are NO, no because you could be a Physicist, Mathematician, and Engineer and sit on your ass all day and do absolutely nothing. If you aren't doing anything then you aren't anything at that moment. A degree doesn't give you a title, a Job does.</p>
<p>If you think you are a engineer because you have a engineering degree you are mistaken. Same way a student who studies finance is not a investment banker/stock broker until he gets hired as one. He is just a kid with a finance degree.</p>
<p>and no the murderers aren't surgeons as they aren't trying to help the person. But you could also say they were taxidermists, hunters, skinners, or a butcher.</p>
<p>i586, you're missing the point. The point is that to get a job as an engineer, a degree in the subject is very helpful, if not necessary. Not that the two are equivalent.</p>
<p>stop arguing with i586. i got no respect for him. I mean he has a job at IBM and gets paid $85,000 a year... but who cares... i mean according to him... numbers(GPA) don't really matter and the name of something(schoo) does not matter either... and him being a troll and him wasting our time matters...</p>
<p>you guys just cant handle another opinion or another view. You have a mentality that your education is really all about a simple number. You wouldn't believe how many stupid people [edited by Mod. MWFN] from top schools come in for interviews and while having a great gpa have absolutely no clue about software development, and pretty much suck and aren't given a shot.</p>
<p>All having a High gpa means is that you can recite what you have read in a book better than another guy. It has nothing to do with engineering abilities.</p>
<p>Read the Blog</p>
<p>Joel On Software
<a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.joelonsoftware.com/</a></p>
<p>he will give you a good opinion on college incompetents. How many top students come out and are fired because they just cant program and don't have a clue. He is also by the way the most respected name in programming and software engineering.</p>
<p>i586, this is what Joel Spolsky had to say about GPA, quoted from the very website that you linked above:</p>
<p>"Never underestimate how big a deal your GPA is. Lots and lots of recruiters and hiring managers, myself included, go straight to the GPA when they scan a resume, and we're not going to apologize for it. Why? Because the GPA, more than any other one number, reflects the sum of what dozens of professors over a long period of time in many different situations think about your work."</p>
<p>asbereth... thank you for the reply. NO one ever said GPA = the deciding factor. it never hurts to have experience like you said... but GPA is so important.. stop poisoning ppl.</p>
<p>I know joels opinions quite well, I never said a high gpa was a bad thing. It can only help a person.</p>
<p>Though my entire point of this argument is that if you don't have a high gpa there are other ways to land the job. Just like I did. Like I have said before if you give them a resume & transcript and have a 2.2 you will probably get denied. If you give them the same with a cover letter explain why you have a low gpa and then show the reader that you really know your stuff by the amount of extra work you have done. You still have a pretty good shot. Again like I said before, make your own moves and don't get caught in the mainstream. </p>
<p>If you see a school of fish swimming you don't notice the school you notice the strays and the exceptions first.</p>
<p>It seems i586 is the only one who's saying that somebody is saying GPA is the most important factor. I think everybody agrees it is important, but nobody has said specifically that it's THE most important.</p>
<p>As for your state school vs. MIT comparison, why are you assuming that the MIT grad has no work experience? If anything, there's a better chance that the MIT grad will have internship experience and the state school grad have none (though I don't think either is common).</p>
<p>EDIT (addition): Side note - Legally speaking in most states (all as far as I know, but there may be exceptions), you can't call your self an engineer unless you have a P.E. And you can't have a P.E. without an ABET accredited degree.</p>
<p>i586,</p>
<p>I can see your viewpoint quite well, and I don't necessarily disagree. All I'm saying is that GPA matters. A lot. Especially if you want to go on to graduate work.</p>
<p>though Ken all but 2% of all Electrical engineers and Computer Engineers get a PE</p>