<p>pyoo--I'm a Cow here at West Point, and I have been through the same thing you have. When I was a Plebe, I went through the most depressing time of my life. It got to the point where I went and talked to CEP, and started trying to gather the paperwork. For whatever reason, though, I stuck it through, and I'm so glad I did. I've made the most incredible friends and had the most awesome experiences that I honestly believe I couldn't have had/found anywhere else. I would urge you to stick it through at least until Yuk year. It's completely different. </p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that the Cows and Firsties don't correct/haze because we dislike you, we do it to uphold the standard. You'll understand it when you get to where we are, trust me. Plebe year helped my memorization skills an incredible amount, something I still find extremely handy. Just keep your head up, things will be alright.</p>
<p>Pyoo - one piece of advice I would give you as you are contemplating leaving: hang in there right now during the low spots. Keep your mind on the next task, and don't think long term at this early stage. You worked so hard to get in, you don't want to make a rash decision. </p>
<p>It is easy to think about being somewhere else when things are bad. When you're fatigued, up against tough academics, doing duties, getting constantly harassed by upperclassmen, and never having enough time in the day, civilian schools understandably start to look pretty inviting. </p>
<p>Instead, wait for a really good day or several days, where something upbeat has really raised your spirits, then seriously re-evaluate your situation. If you still think WP is not for you when things are good, then probably you are right. It isn't for everyone. But if everything suddenly seems better when a good day comes around, then stick it out at least for a semester or two. Things will improve for you and you'll be glad you stayed. </p>
<p>I read an analogy once that compared the new cadet and West Point to two rivers coming together, both having strong currents. At their confluence, the waters may become angry and turbulent. Then things smooth out and the two flow together. There may be more rapids and more calm areas along the way, but together you reach your destination. </p>
<p>I was wondering how the graduates of west point fare in the civilian world after serving in the army. do they have troble finding high paying jobs, can they compete with ivy league grads.</p>
<p>A lot of good advice has been given. This is definitely a 2 sided coin. On one side, if you really decide to leave, it's mainly because you didn't do enough research on what you were getting into. And that's a real shame. Not for you, but for someone who didn't get selected who really wanted it but there weren't enough slots. Such a shame. On the other side of the coin, if you really don't want to be a military officer and serve your country, then it is best that you do leave. You probably wouldn't make a very good officer then anyway, and unfortunately I have seen first hand what happens to good men and woman when they don't have good leadership in time of war or even during peace time.</p>
<p>Too many people apply to West Point, Annapolis, Air Force Academy, etc... for all the wrong reasons. They talk about how good the schools are. That it's a free education. That they will get to travel and see the world. etc.... They forget, or aren't told, that the number 1 priority of the academies is to develope military officers who will some day be in charge of the lives of men and woman. Possibly in war. But either way, defending and serving our country. Unfortunately only a few of the candidates actually get a chance to visit the academies for summer seminars or a week of following around cadets. There are so many that have visited and realized that maybe this wasn't for them. Unfortunately, the majority don't get to visit and they don't research sites like this to find out what it's really like.</p>
<p>Anyway, my comments aren't meant to help you. You've got to make this decision yourself. Hopefully however there will be some potential candidates who actually will research WP, Anap, Air Force, etc... here and other places prior to applying. Maybe they'll come across this thread and others and determine ahead of time if this is for them. Mike......</p>
<p>
[quote]
On one side, if you really decide to leave, it's mainly because you didn't do enough research on what you were getting into. And that's a real shame. Not for you, but for someone who didn't get selected who really wanted it but there weren't enough slots. Such a shame.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is where I disagree - these kids are kids. In every sense of the word. Pyoo323 is at West Point now because he EARNED his spot to be there.<br>
I have heard it say over and over again - no one can really predict how one is going to react until they get there. Admissions works hard to get the right match but since they are dealing with people - no one can predict 100% how a kid is going to adjust. The academies know this - they know a certain number are not going to make it to graduation. What they do NOT know is who. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Too many people apply to West Point, Annapolis, Air Force Academy, etc... for all the wrong reasons. They talk about how good the schools are. That it's a free education. That they will get to travel and see the world. etc....
[/quote]
Well all of this is true and all of it is marketed by the military. So if you don't like these benefits portrayed take it up with Uncle Sam. Believe it or not a lot of kids do not know their schooling is free. This can make a huge difference to a very bright student from limited means who is looking to enlist because of no money for school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
They forget, or aren't told, that the number 1 priority of the academies is to develope military officers who will some day be in charge of the lives of men and woman. Possibly in war. But either way, defending and serving our country.
[/quote]
Maybe this was true 10 years ago. My experience is these kids are told at academy information sessions that there is a good possibility their first tour of duty will be Iraq. </p>
<p>Yes, I agree - know what you are getting into. But for even those who do know what they are getting into - the West Point experience can be a shock - some will just not be able to adjust. For others they realize they want a different career. Why is it acceptable for kids at civilian schools to change majors and career goals mid-stream but for kids at West Point they are told they didn't research the school enough. I don't buy that.</p>
<p>Likewise - kids on a full ROTC scholarship get a free education and get paid. I don't see them being criticized for wanting a free education. AROTC scholarship kids only get one year to decide. They become obligated at the start of their sophomore year.</p>
<p>I would never tell someone to go to USXA and "see if you like it" - but there are those whose lives or goals change and they have two years before they are obligated to Uncle Sam. If the academies were 100% dead positive no kid would leave - they would contract them right away.</p>
<p>Wow. I don't consider pondering a decisions that will affect the next 9 or 24 years of ones life a red flag. It sounded to me like he was putting effort into making a mature and serious decision.</p>
<p>Honestly, I have never seen statistics - only hearsay - mostly on this forum ...
But I wonder if the academies gather statistics, evaluate and even make them public on the reasons why kids leave.<br>
The whole admissions process is complex - these people are professionals - if they don't get it right 100% of the time I don't think anyone speculating on the forum would get it right 100% of the time either.</p>
<p>I betcha that there are quite a few kids like pyoo who struggled with the West Point decision - and while some do leave I bet there are those who stay and make excellent officers and have great careers.</p>
<p>Just because a senior in high school is not all HooYah and hardcore all the time doesn't mean they should not go if they have earned an appointment.
Most of the people who give unprofessional advice to kids - whether they should stay or go have good intentions. No doubt. But that advice is based on anecdotal evidence (their own or their own children's experiences).</p>
<p>Is Pyoo having a difficult time right now? Yes, sounds like it. Is he the only one? I doubt that. I am not going to speculate on his intentions or even attempt to give him advice at this point - other than to say if he were my child I would tell him to finish the semester and take it from there.
If he is really struggling he should go find a Chaplain and have a talk. The decision to stay is his and his alone.</p>
<p>There are many reasons for cadets not graduating from WP -there are medical, academic, honor separations; and then there are those who choose to leave. Some choose to leave because they decide the military is not for them, others decide the WP environment is not for them. I respect those decisions completely. However, my comments were limited to cadets who quit early in the progam (before they really have the full perspective). There are new cadets who quit on R-day! Yes, they have earned their appointment, but that is a shame they have taken the slot from another candidate who would perhaps have been more determined to succeed. WP admissions does its best to make sure that candidates accept appointments for the right reasons and are informed about what they are signing up for (one of the purposes of the interview). Unfortunately many candidates answer the question why do you want to attend WP with the answer they think admissions wants to hear. MALOs will tell you that a candidates reasons for attending the academy need to be solid if they are going to succeed. Statistics show that going for the wrong reasons (family pressure in particular) is the most common reason for cadets quitting the program early.
I have no knowledge about what motivated pyoo to attend or what is motivating him to rethink his decision. My only comment was that there were early warning signs (consistent with the statistics and anecdotal evidence). I didnt mean to sound as if I was slamming pyoo and apologize if it read that way. Interestingly, the original red flag comment you are offended by was posted by a USAFA cadet in that original thread. I wish him everything of the best and know that he is having a tough time at the moment (most plebes are, almost all will consider quitting at some point, the vast majority will not). The advice has consistently been that the decision is his alone, I dont believe that anyone has suggested otherwise.
The value of these last posts are of more help to future candidates than they are to pyoo and I thank him for sharing his experiences with us.</p>
<p>"I wonder if the academies gather statistics, evaluate and even make them public on the reasons why kids leave"</p>
<p>WP gathers statistics on almost everything....:) No, they don't make it all public. Very little is left to chance (risk analysis is important), but admissions can only gauge "potential" -the "doing" is up to the cadet and is sometimes more difficult to predict....
I can tell you that if WP accepts a candidate, they believe that that candidate has what it takes to be successful and they will do everything in their power to help that candidate succeed.</p>
<p>Ann, you have a very good insight on the academies and West Point. Everyone has their opinions on the topic. Each with their own rationalization. Having retired after 21 years, I too have my own perspective. But Ann, you have said most of what I too believe.</p>
<p>We aren't talking about a student; (Sorry, I REFUSE to call them KIDS. Not even the 17 year old enlisted troop); that quit after the first semester or first year. Someone who gave it the "Army Try" and realized it wasn't for them. We're talking about those who quit during initial training or during the 1st semester of classes. That is a student/cadet that didn't research enough into what they were getting into. They were unprepared. This isn't totally their fault. Most of the academies have programs when potential candidates can come and visit and sort of experioence cadet life for a week. Many potential candidates get an eye opener there. Unfortunately, they can't bring in all 10,000 applicants to "Test the waters".</p>
<p>I also blame the parents. The parents should be more involved into knowing what their son or daughter is wanting to do with their future. I have met first hand many parents who's primary concern was that the academy offered a FREE EDUCATION. That they weren't going to have to pay for anything. This is the wrong thing to be thinking of when trying to assist your son or daughter with college plans. An NO "Justamomof4"; I don't believe that there is 1 applicant who applies to any of the academies that don't know that their complete college life at the academy isn't paid for. They all know that. Either way, the parents need to be more involved.</p>
<p>Anyway, I truly believe that anyone that CHOOSES to leave during training or during the 1st semester of school didn't research and know what they were getting into. You may not know the exact specifics of going to school at WP, Air Force, Anap, etc.. but you should research at least the WEB SITE to know what to basically expect when it comes to the environment. I don't believe that it's marketed poorly. Anyway, I feel sorry for the #1 NON-SELECTED applicant. Later... Mike....</p>
<p>Ann, at the beginning of this thread you were right on the money.</p>
<p>But then:</p>
<p>
[quote=Ann]
When a cadet quits really early in the program it suggests to me that either they went for the wrong reason or that they did not do their research ahead of time. I’m not sure what pyoo will do, but there were red flags before he accepted his appointment</p>
<p>I have no knowledge about what motivated pyoo to attend or what is motivating him to rethink his decision. My only comment was that there were early warning signs</p>
<p>almost all will consider quitting at some point, the vast majority will not
</p>
<p>
<p>if you really don't want to be a military officer and serve your country, then it is best that you do leave. You probably wouldn't make a very good officer then anyway, </p>
<p>Too many people apply to West Point, Annapolis, Air Force Academy, etc... for all the wrong reasons. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the majority don't get to visit and they don't research sites like this to find out what it's really like.</p>
<p>Anyway, my comments aren't meant to help you. You've got to make this decision yourself. Hopefully however there will be some potential candidates who actually will research WP, Anap, Air Force, etc... here and other places prior to applying. Maybe they'll come across this thread and others and determine ahead of time if this is for them.</p>
<p>We're talking about those who quit during initial training or during the 1st semester of classes. That is a student/cadet that didn't research enough into what they were getting into. They were unprepared. </p>
<p>I also blame the parents. The parents should be more involved into knowing what their son or daughter is wanting to do with their future. I have met first hand many parents who's primary concern was that the academy offered a FREE EDUCATION. </p>
<p>Anyway, I truly believe that anyone that CHOOSES to leave during training or during the 1st semester of school didn't research and know what they were getting into.
</p>
<p>A cadet comes on this site and asks for help making a decision. You have , with absolutely no logic, branded him in a negative way, stating that he did not know what he was getting into. There are many reasons to leave early in the game. Yes, not knowing what one is getting into is one of them. So is homesickness. It, for some, is a powerful motivator. Deep Dark Secret: Upperclass actually work so hard in squaring away some that they see it as harassment and quit. Ann, you state that he hasn’t done his research and posted an earlier thread. That thread, to me, showed that he WAS researching his options. Taking your thought process to it’s logical conclusion would mean that anyone who didn’t scream “Hooyah” instead of cry when the pediatrician initially slapped them on the bottom, doesn’t belong at WP.</p>
<p>Why not try to assist the young man?</p>
<p>When utilizing LOAs as WP is doing at this time, they must anticipate a certain increased amount of attrition and I am sure that they are planning accordingly.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Eventually, yes. But some are well into the process and have made a commitment prior to learning same.</p>
<p>There are always stories about 1 appointee who shows up on Day 1 and exclaims, "I DIDN'T KNOW THIS WAS A MILITARY SCHOOL!" </p>
<p>For those who are unsure upon entering, it always pains me to see someone leave early on. They do not actually see cadet life very clearly, and definitely do not get an accurate picture of military life. It is sad to see people seemingly not give a fair chance at staying. However, I also understand that people don't want to second guess their decision NOT to attend an SA, then realize they made a huge mistake.</p>
<p>I think people do need 100% commitment to excell at an SA, but not everyone enters with it...for some, it develops over time.</p>
<p>USNA69: Please go back and read my posts; this thread and the original one - I have made no conclusions regarding pyoo. I said that the most common reason for quitting was going for the wrong reasons.</p>
<p>Without addressing some of the previous opinions, I just want to say that a service academy education is not free. My plebe and all the other service academy students will be paying for their education with service to our country, and some will pay with the ultimate price.</p>
<p>You and I actually agree on nearly everything - if you all would go back and look at my post - I said I would encourage him to stay and NOT quit mid semester.
I, too, agree that most Cadets who leave during their first semester are not giving it a fair shot. </p>
<p>What I disagree with is the leap that was made:</p>
<p>
[quote]
My only comment was that there were early warning signs (consistent with the statistics and anecdotal evidence).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree that pondering a decision to choose between two great opportunities, necessarily indicates an early warning sign.
I thought it showed maturity - that he was seriously considering his choices and not approaching either one aimlessly.<br>
How can one possibly make the leap that - even considering another choice besides his appointment makes one unfit to accept the appointment? I just don't think you can tie the two together. I am sure there are cadets thriving at West Point now who seriously considered other choices when they accepted their appointments. I don't think his thought in April should be coming back to haunt him now.</p>
<p>I took issue with Chirstcorp's comment:
[quote]
On one side, if you really decide to leave, it's mainly because you didn't do enough research on what you were getting into. And that's a real shame. Not for you, but for someone who didn't get selected who really wanted it but there weren't enough slots. Such a shame.
[/quote]
Look, getting an appointment is a competition. You are competing against all the other qualfied candidtates out there for one. That person who didn't get selected - did not get selected for a reason.</p>
<p>Let's say your son is running in a track and he juuussttttt misses qualifiying in the finals - you stay and watch. The kid that beat him is dq'd on a false start. Do you jump up and proclaim that this kid wasted his spot in the finals? That your kid could have done better if the dq'd kid didn't take a spot away from one who really wanted to be there?</p>
<p>I don't think there is enough information to take even a wild guess as to what is going on with Pyoo. Far be it from me to judge what his intentions are/were or if he should leave/stay.
There are many many factors that can overwhelm a desire to attend WP -
USNA69 is correct about homesickness - this is an end all for many many kids - not only those at academies.
Then there is getting yelled at constantly. Some people just can't handle it and they crumble. This does not mean they went "for all the wrong reasons".</p>
<p>When my daughter visted in April - the cadre were talking about running out a plebe. They really wanted to get rid of him. So - yes plebe are and can be "run out".</p>
<p>I think one thing that I and Ann said was words such as "Mainly", "Typical", etc... indicating that a cadet wanting to leave early "Probably" didn't look into what they were getting into deep enough. True, we don't know this cadet's full reasons, but that doesn't take away from what is probable.</p>
<p>As far as helping them, the only advice that can be given is; "If you want to quit, then quit". If they are looking for ways to make it work, to fit it, to stay, then personally, they should get advice from their peers there at the academy. Or should go to a counselor or someone at the academy for guidance. </p>
<p>As far as not knowing that the academy was free, that's just plain silly. Did they not think it strange that no one asked them for money prior to driving or flying to the academy? Did they not read the "OVERVIEW" on the website that says:</p>
<p>"A West Point cadetship includes a fully funded four-year college education. Tuition, room, board, medical and dental care are provided by the U.S. Army. As members of the Armed Forces, cadets also receive an annual salary of more than $6,500. This pay covers the cost of uniforms, books, a personal computer, and living incidentals. By law, graduates of West Point are appointed on active duty as commissioned officers and serve in the U.S. Army for a minimum of five years."</p>
<p>Sorry, but none of those are excuses. If they went through the entire process of getting an appointment and didn't even read the 1st main page of the website, then there is no excuse for that. And don't talk about that the academy ISN'T free, and all about the "Ultimate Price". MANY of us know that price first hand.</p>
<p>No one has anything negative against this young cadet. leaving after only a couple of weeks however is a waste. My suggestion or advice is that they stick it out at least through the first semester. Trying to make the perfect environment in a matter of a couple of weeks isn't enough. Home sickness, not fitting in, etc... are all part of growing up. The same happens to students in traditional colleges.</p>
<p>Either way, I wish that the military academies could allow more young people to get a chance to see and experience first hand what they are getting into. Then maybe things like this wouldn't happen. There is an applicant that isn't at West point because this person is. Unlike a sporting event where if an athlete is disqualified and they take the next one in line, the academy doesn't allow a waiting list to replace those who drop out voluntarily; only for those who turn down the appointment. </p>
<p>With all the stereotypes about the military; physical conditioning, screaming, yelling, hair cuts, etc... There isn't a military movie ever made that didn't have many of these stereotypes. Will all this, they should have at least realized that this was not Berkley or some other touchie feelie college. Even if you don't know everything about the academy, you have to know at least the "Military Stereotypes" and should have been a little concerned about that.</p>
I think one thing that I and Ann said was words such as "Mainly", "Typical", etc... indicating that a cadet wanting to leave early "Probably" didn't look into what they were getting into deep enough.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Right. But how do you know this? Hearsay? From accounts on this forum? How far is deep enough? This candidate did the application himself, he went on a candidate visit. He admits he knew what he was getting into.</p>
<p>Homesickness. A part of growing up? You betcha. As a parent who has sent 3 kids off (100 miles, 600 miles and 1000 miles) - I have dealt with varying degrees and intensities of it. Plenty of kids go home because of it.</p>
<p>One rule I made was - you can't come home until your first break and you must complete the semester. Not even for a weekend. This rule worked for my kids - others may bolt anyway.</p>
<p>Environment - dealing with cadre, getting yelled at - yes kids know this. It certainly is romanticized in film. I don't think until you have lived it can you really know how it will affect you. You are correct - you don't get a trial run.
And no - SLS and NASS are not trial runs!</p>
<p>The academies do everything they can to admit the "best" candidates. They will not admit you if they think you don't have "what it takes" to succeed at all levels. Nevertheless, the process is not perfect. </p>
<p>
[quote]
There is an applicant that isn't at West point because this person is.
[/quote]
They account for a certain attrition rate - that is why they over admit. That "applicant" is already at West Point.</p>
Somehow I doubt the 200 or so LOA's West Point sends out to highly qualified candidates figures much into the roughly 25 percent of those cadets who for one reason or another don't make it through the entire program.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Right on. I am quite sure that if the cadets who got LOA's were dropping like flies out of West Point - admissions would change the program.</p>
<p>While USNA69's delivery can be a bit harsh - I do think he is correct that some conclusions were being reached without enough information. People have a tendency to reach a conclusion based on their own bias and preference. Correlation does not equal causation.</p>
<p>I think y'all need to remember that pyoo323 is reading these posts and pondering a very personal decision. He must have a lot of respect for the members here on the USMA forum to come here for advice. He has not posted since 9/2 or 3. </p>
<p>Pyoo323, I sincerely hope you have made it through the dip and that you are starting the climb to the next hill on the grand 47 month roller coaster ride. Thinkers make good leaders and you, pyoo323, are a thinker!</p>