Transfers and prospective students interested in STEM or pre-health, pay attention

Colleges and Universities A-Z Emory University
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http://news.emory.edu/stories/2017/09/er_chemistry_curriculum/campus.html

*So this actually happened.

If anyone is a possible transfer into STEM and strongly considering Emory, you should likely get into contact with the chemistry department (either Dr. Lutz, McGill, or Mulford) about equivalencies. If you are applying or seriously interested in Emory (maybe ED1 or 2) and thinking STEM, pay attention as well. Note that if you have an AP credit, starting next year you can start at 202-Z (I recommend this path) and then you may take 203-Z or really whatever course you want in the sequence (204 and 205 do not have pre-reqs outside of AP or 150 I don’t think).

For pre-healths, the AP credit problem and the “extra class” issue is really diminished because there are now 5 foundation courses meaning you can enter at 202-Z or 202 and go up to 205. Having 205 (the one they said is for chemistry majors) could possibly help for the MCAT anyway (the concepts may basically be presented how the MCAT would do an integrated passage on physical and biological or chemical sciences anyway). Since you are essentially skipping one course and not two and none are truly equivalent to a general chemistry, there is no reason for pre-meds to worry about how med. schools will judge them for using AP credit. As long as you complete 4/5 of the foundation courses in the sequence, you will be good. And no, I do not advise attempting 150 for an easy A, because most even with 5’s back when it was 141 didn’t make an A or A- for that matter (more like mostly B+s, many Bs, and some B-s, and some were so bored that they got lower, so don’t really do it to yourself unless you are shamefully lazy or took AP/IB/A-level as a sophomore and did no other chemistry or physics after it). Just take 202-Z or wait it out and wait for 202 to roll around).

Some of your options are laid out here that address pathways regarding those with no AP/IB credit: http://chemistry.emory.edu/home/documents/CHEM141_CHEM142_Advising_Info.pdf

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Some more information about the new chemistry integrated curriculum and its impact on undergrads:
http://news.emory.edu/stories/2017/08/er_bts_school_roundup/campus.html

"Emory College’s Department of Chemistry launches a completely new curriculum for undergraduates this fall, two years after the opening of the new addition to the Atwood Chemistry Center.

The Department of Chemistry launches a completely new curriculum for undergraduates this fall. Supported by a $1.2 million grant from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, the new curriculum features five interdisciplinary foundational courses that give exposure to organic, inorganic and physical chemistry to students early on in their education using hands-on, collaborative instruction.

The new curriculum features direct exposure to current research and its relevancy to multiple fields within and outside of chemistry. It also includes specialty courses for upperclassmen that delve deeper into those connections in subjects ranging from nuclear chemistry in medicine to the cellular respiration that defines metabolism."

https://emorywheel.com/chemistry-department-updates-curriculum/

"General Chemistry I and II (Chem 141 and Chem 142) have been combined into one class, Chem 150: Structure and Properties. Laboratory courses are now independent, two-credit courses rather than being paired with a lecture as one credit. By Fall 2018, Organic Chemistry (Chem 221 and Chem 222) will be replaced with Chem 202: Foundations of Reactivity, Chem 203: Advanced Reactivity and Chem 204: Macromolecules.

The new curriculum aims to shift from teaching topics in a detailed but isolated manner to emphasizing connections between topics, Mulford said. Topics such as kinetics and thermodynamics, which were previously not covered in depth until higher-level courses, will now be introduced in the foundational courses. Mulford said that he hopes the changes will allow students to focus more on reasoning and understanding rather than memorization.

“We wanted to move away from labs being verifications of lecture material to focusing on specific aspects of the experimental science of chemistry that were specific to laboratory environments,” Mulford said. The department agreed the amount of work required of students for lab as a separate course is more in line with two credit hours than one.

Chemistry majors will also now have more options for electives. Previously, chemistry majors could only choose one elective and the remainder of their required major courses were outlined for them. Under the new curriculum, students have the chance to take more classes that interest them."

These changes seem very positive to me and to others interested in the biological and medical applications for chemistry.

@bernie12 For those of us who took general chemistry under the previous curriculum and are now taking orgo in the form of Chem 221, will there still be a Chem 301 (Biochemistry) going forward? For how much longer?

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@BiffBrown 301 should always exist, but will become an elective for chemistry majors who declare this year and later I think. To tell the truth, I have never been a fan of it or the bio version.

I get this feeling that I would strongly recommend either the new 204 class for those who have time (before the MCAT) or an upper division course like chem 302 before the MCAT. 301 is a little bland. Focuses almost too much on metabolic pathways which is good for the discreets on the MCAT for pre-meds, but not particularly good for any passage based problems (the more enzyme kinetics and experimental bchem you know, the more likely passages will go your way. You can learn metabolic pathways on your own tbh). Hopefully that macromolecules or an upper division course will focus more on either a) math or b) experimentation in the fields or c) both. Lutz has apparently started doing a “handwaving” integration of primary literature into his course, but students are not held accountable because his exams are still mostly memorization and problem types that have little to do with structural biology, experimental biochem, or bio-organic. Howvever, he now does more active learning and “problem solving” (I’ll take the quotes off if a friend shows me evidence) during his class sessions so that can be good (certainly better than when the guy in the bio version attempts it).

Admittedly, Lutz can teach very well, I just find his faith in undergraduates to handle higher level problem solving disappointing. It doesn’t make much sense considering how much faith people like some of the general chemistry and organic instructors have.
It is also a missed opportunity to truly prep. people for chem 302 which is a straight up chemical biology class that focuses on research (they even have to write an NSF style mini-proposal).

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Here’s a just released interactive presentation on how the new chemistry curriculum and classrooms at Emory will be set up:

http://chemistry.emory.edu/articulate/chemistry_unbound/story_html5.html

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@BiffBrown : You know, they are proposing a biochemistry track, and at first I was cynical (wondering how they would pull it off. However, they could easily just do what Vanderbilt and most private schools do. You let several biology and chemistry courses count towards the track. That track is long overdue at Emory. Given that the biochemistry related classes past 301 are likely to be done extremely well (Weinert already does extremely well and Heemstra is known for teaching excellence when she was over here at Utah and she will likely teach some chemical biology related course), and then Liotta has finally graduated to teaching upper division/seminar courses. These classes, plus commonly taken graduate courses, key bio courses, key NBB, and key physics courses (mainly physical biology) should be more than sufficient to create a serious concentration.

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@bernie12

Will biochemistry be an actual degree awarded?

By that, I mean the physics department awards different degrees (see below).

Does the chemistry department plan to differentiate its degree programs by including a BS in Biochemistry?

http://www.physics.emory.edu/home/academic/undergraduate/degree-programs.html

Degree Program Opportunities

Emory’s Physics Department offers seven degree programs to choose from, listed below (please note that Physics majors who declared before the start of the Fall 2015 semester should view old requirements following this link).

BS in Physics - If you want a rigorous foundation in physics, especially if you plan to pursue graduate education in physics.

BA in Physics - If you plan to enter medicine, dentistry, law, business, teaching or another field where a physics background is an asset.

BS in Physics and Astronomy - If you plan on graduate education and a career in astronomy.

BA in Physics and Astronomy - If you are interested in studying astronomy but may pursue another career such as medicine, law or teaching.

BA in Physics for Life Sciences - If you are a pre-health student interested in physics, and you’re considering a career in the healthcare professions, or you are interested in both physics and the life sciences. Additional information can be found in our brochure.

BS in Biophysics - If you want a rigorous foundation in both physics and biophysics. Additional information can be found in our brochure.

BS in Engineering Sciences - If you are interested in professions that interface with engineers, such as engineering management and patent law; or you are planning to pursue a graduate degree in engineering. Three tracks are available: Engineering Physics, Materials Science (which includes many chemistry courses), and Geosciences (which includes many courses in Environmental Science). Additional information can be found in our brochure.

Minor in Physics

Minor in Astronomy

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@BiffBrown : I don’t know, and it really doesn’t matter. It never matters to employers or graduate schools who will look mostly at practical experiences (like research or internships) and reference letters to figure out a student’s area of interest anyway. Such additional concentrations or even degrees in things like physics or chemistry seem more like marketing tools to me (basically they know a prospective or transfer student will go: “I am looking for schools that offer this niche degree” even though in reality the difference between the niche degree and the department hosting it often is irrelevant. Again, most biochemistry degrees are often less rigorous versions of chemistry degrees that allow students to add a smattering of associated biology courses. With no research experience in biochemistry or without several upper division teaching labs in that specific area, which is unlikely at most private schools, this type of degree would not differentiate much from a chemistry degree and, in fact, a chemistry major may have an advantage getting a job as the biochemistry is essentially what most chemistry BAs end up doing anyway. They dodge some of the tough chemistry courses and major in something like biology or NBB as well. However I am down for Emory playing games like this as its competitors do it). Technically students can create their own area of focus via a major, but breaking them down in such a way lays out a specific set of courses that will help them do so (basically shows off that some courses exist). Looks like all of this is primarily a result of students (prospective and current) who like to be told what they can do and what courses would help them get a background in X.

Chemistry has substantially more majors than physics so should not have to offer actual degrees in whatever areas, but may choose to. Physics likely did the split into all of those as a marketing took to insiders (as they struggle to both attract and keep majors). Chemistry could be attempting to build higher enrollment in that 205 course and some of the key electives. Admittedly if something like biochemistry attracts more students to take courses past 204, the enrollment of such courses will be more steady and there may also be legit reasons to offer even more electives. Currently, there are few enough BS students that if more than 2 electives are offered per semester, then one may not do well enrollment wise. I also TAed several of the students who actually started begging for concentrations (mainly a biochem concentration) before they seriously started developing the new curriculum (we are talking back in 2013-2014 here) and they were primarily doing it because they were the types who went above and beyond and took related graduate division chemistry and biology courses and wanted recognition of this extra work on top of being a) a BA/BS double major plus research or b) being a chem BS that went the extra mile with focused outside and inside upper division and often graduate level work plus research. It didn’t really have the idea that you should be able to take a basic combo of chemistry and biology courses and then call it a biochemistry major. They were quite serious students.