I’m sorry you had to deal with so many drama mamas when your kids were growing up @HotCanary . My D22 has been a lead in several productions and it’s been fun for her, no drama from other kids and certainly not from the parents either. Maybe we’ve been lucky.
She likes theater a lot, but she definitely won’t be majoring in it in college and I don’t know if she will pick up any parts or not. Her #1 school did say that kids who are not in the theater department are welcome to join productions, so she might do it for fun, but probably not first semester or anything.
FWIW, I was in All-State band way back in the dark ages (trumpet player) and I never felt competition from other musicians. You just got selected or you didn’t. And if you did, you worked together with the other band members. I don’t remember any competition amongst band members, but that was a looooooooooong time ago. My kids were not into music at school, so maybe it’s different now. My oldest plays a little guitar at home, but just for fun. My D22 is not interested in playing music or singing — she’s an actor only.
The arts have really been positive for us. I’m really grateful for it. The parents pitch in when needed (I usually sell concessions) and the kids work together to build sets, run tech, all that stuff. The theater teacher/director gets a little angsty leading up to opening night (he’s been known to yell, “y’all better get it together!”) but it’s just been a really great collaborative experience for my kids that culminates in a show that family and friends are excited to see.
Might be because the school is small or just because the theater teacher is great. I dunno, but it’s been a lot of fun for them.
Agreed - lots of drinking game opportunities for how many times someone mentions the list of ivies their kid applied to, or if (God forbid) their kid is at a T100++, making sure to clarify that they’re in the honors program (phew!)
I listen to a popular podcast by an actor and he regularly talks about how he spent years trying to fuel his self esteem by competing with his peers for the best roles in the best movies, with the best directors - and how this just led him to years of alcohol & drug dependency and abuse, and did nothing for his self esteem. Only when he met his now wife, and followed her lead in the desire to help others and see them do well, did he feel a drastic change in his self esteem. This resonated with me - and I wish it was an approach that more people would take rather than a “winning at all costs” strategy.
No one is against collaboration. In fact, most problems, certainly the more complex problems, we face today require collaborations. However, selfishness and indolence are part of human nature. Why would you exert yourself if your “collaborators” would do it for you? Competition and collaboration aren’t mutually exclusive. Competition is what makes each of us do our best. Finding the balance is the key and we certainly need to constrain some of the natural human impulses to avoid excesses of both competition and collaboration.
ETA: @rickle1, I hit the wrong “Reply” button and this isn’t meant to be a response to your post.
Having fun and the arts being competitive are not mutually exclusive. D has been in theater essentially her whole life. Had to audition to enroll in a Performing Arts Magnet HS. Had to audition for all the shows. Had to audition for college (intense process). Has to audition for all her shows in college. Has to audition for professional side gigs. That’s the life she’s chosen and she’s an awesome person (kind, collaborative - but very focused). Starting way back when with all those auditions, it has been stressful…but she has also enjoyed all of it. Didn’t always get the part she wanted but made the best of it and follows the mantra “There are no small parts, just small people!” She loved being her troupe leader in HS. Loved doing fundraising for the program. Loved ALL the performances, especially the rehearsals, etc. At her level, it is fantastically competitive (as in less than 5% of applicants get accepted into top BFAs - and then you’re both learning from and competing with that talent pool for shows) yet still collaborative as the training requires a lot of group work.
Just because it’s hard and most will ultimately not “make it” professionally, doesn’t mean it’s not fun.
D also spent many MANY yrs with the local theater / dance group outside of her school. This was the “everybody gets to participate” crowd. She loved that too. It was (and is)a great place to nurture and build interest in the arts for many kids. Of course the talent was far less but that was fine. D became a student teacher there and loved helping develop the younger kids. All of that is great.
My general point throughout this thread has been the pure fun / participation , extra curricular activity arena is great…BUT if you really want to go for it, whatever “it” is, you need to stand out and enter a competitive world where just showing up and participating doesn’t cut it. Getting in to Med School and Law School is competitive. Making a living in sports, arts is competitive (just to get the opportunity). Getting a job at a leading firm in a leading industry is competitive. Getting in to a top MBA program is competitive. And staying at all these places is also competitive as that’s when the real work begins. Based on that reality, I feel the participation trophy scenario is really creating a disservice to kids once they are teenagers. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t participate and enjoy themselves, but nothing wrong with acknowledging that Johnny or Susie is way better than them at X. They all have the areas where they excel.
But are “teenagers” really getting participation trophies? My kiddos got a couple of participation trophies at age 5/6 and that was it. I don’t think any older child who gets a trophy for participation has any illusions about it - most kids know it is meaningless. I certainly don’t buy into the idea that it causes them to have an inflated sense of self-esteem. On the other hand, the snow-plow parenting, social media and obsession with “prestige” and “performance” that is so ubiquitous in upper middle class communities probably is doing some harm.
My D got ribbons for piano competitions when she was in HS, regardless of outcome. Pretty sure they were long tossed away. What she did keep were all the adjudicator comments and score cards. Much more valuable!
D also did (and still does) theater and finds her theater groups to be the most supportive and welcoming of any group/club. Way, way, way less competitive than her sports teams.
That said, I think it depends whether a kid is doing their activity just for the love of it and for fun, rather than as their life’s work. Plenty of parents act like their kid is going to turn pro or be on Broadway when they are 5. IMO, that’s a bigger problem than everyone gets a trophy.
When I was interviewing for college, there was a group discussion section. We where given free drinks and snacks and a “ Thanks for coming” info document pack . That was a participation trophy in essence. So I don’t think that it really stops for teenagers.
Even at my last job interview I was given coffee. The notion of celebrating and enjoying participation for participation sake is ageless.
I wish they would get rid of trophies all together and either reduce the entrance fee if there is one, give Tshirts, make a charitable contribution in the teams name, give gift cards or something different than ribbons, certificates, trophies, etc…waste of resource.
Totally agree with the unrealistic parent issue. Saw that up close for many yrs when S was playing sports. He was good. Others were very good. Maybe one or two were great. But MANY parents chose a path to seek college scholarships regardless of the school ( leading so many kids to play ball at directional school in the middle of nowhere for a yr only to transfer back home and figure out life’s next path.) I used to sit and watch the games quietly while thinking “that kid’s a nice player but he has NO SHOT at the next level.” These parents would spend thousands on “elite” travel teams essentially forming the whole summer schedule around the kid’s baseball team. Meanwhile our kid was a good player (good enough to likely make a D3 team) but wasn’t interested in devoting all that time. So we got to go on the normal family vacations while his buddies were all going from stadium to stadium. Who knows, they might say they had a blast. But the reality is their folks were very unrealistic about a potential future in that sport.
Around here (FL)it’s gotten crazy and is still part of the participation trophy issue. We used to have Little League for the masses (starting at age 5 or 6 with T Ball) and the truly gifted players (around age 11 or so) would branch out to play AAU. Little League was considered Rec Ball where everyone got a chance to play, a trophy, etc. AAU was competitive and only for the very good players. Now the “participation trophy” is everyone plays AAU and our Little League has essentially shut down. Parents want their kids to feel good and feel cool by being able to say, “I play travel ball” . All it’s done is watered down the travel teams. Now we have Team 1,2,3 and Team 1 is really the only quality team.
Really not that different than way too many kids (who really aren’t qualified)taking way too many AP classes (taught by teachers who aren’t qualified) because they (or their parents) want to feel like they are just as talented academically. Waters down the whole AP environment. Think about the words Advanced Placement. That means something. If everyone is advanced, then no one is advanced.
A snack is not a participation trophy. On a college visit it is more of a goody bag at the birthday party — a “thank you gift”. It’s a here’s a bumper sticker and a folder and a granola bar and hope your parents will spent many $$$ sending you to our school.
I hear you on the sports front. I’ve always quietly thought that if some of these unrealistic parents put the $$ they’ve invested in club teams, travel, personal coaching etc. into college savings they’d be far better off. It avoids kids choosing schools that are only a “fit” for their sport instead of place where they will thrive as a student.
I am astounded by the “travel teams” around here, be they soccer, hockey or baseball. Middle and high school aged kids are traveling from MN to AZ, FL, Cayman Islands even, to play soccer? It is ridiculous when there are multitudes of great players and teams right here in the midwest. Can’t they play each other? It seems like such a big “patting ourselves on the back” - we can’t find any competition in the local area so we have to travel THIS FAR to find a worthy opponent. I know families that spend all their money attending sports tournaments out of state in a field in Indiana or Arizona, and the poor sbilings have that as their family vacation. And of the kids I know who have done these clubs/tourneys, you are right, the one who played in college played at a directional in a neighboring state, a school where he probably would have gotten the same “scholarship” for his academic record as anything sport related. I know some kids love and thrive on this, but wow, when I was a kid, parents would carpool so they didn’t have to attend all the games and practices, NOT haul the whole family someplace for an expensive tourney.
Some may think we’ve gotten far off track )of the thread). However I feel this is a direct result of the participation trophy scenario. It starts with everyone has to get acknowledged about how good they are (even if they’re not) and moves to my kid better be on a travel team or s/he won’t feel as good (false self esteem) as friends (who may legitimately be quite gifted in an area). Then it moves to “Wow you play travel. You must be great. You should play in college” building more false self esteem. Real self esteem draws from both trying your best and accomplishing things. You don’t have to be the best. You don’t need a trophy. You just need to know that you did your absolute best in whatever. And it that’s not good enough, move on to something else (and perhaps continue with that purely on a recreational / self enjoyment level).
It’s why I play golf. I like the camaraderie, and I like competing with myself to get better. I’d rather lose a match and play great than win while playing lousy. That’s what I’ve learned from sports. Pushing myself to improve and being happy for others when they get the results they seek.
An interesting study on competition and participation and awards is the Great British Baking Show. It never ceases to amaze me how hard these people compete in their amateur endeavor, for almost no material reward whatsoever, and how generous they are to their competitors all at the same time.
They seem to have a blast, work hard at something they love, take criticism well, want to win, are gracious in their epic fails, and help their competitors. They seem innately compelled to do all those things. And the judges give constructive advice without being mean, acknowledging brilliance and effort and mistakes. If bakers mess up, they have to dust themselves off and keep going. The competitors acknowledge that some in the tent are better than others, and that just makes them all want to work harder. The big motivators are just the title of weekly “Star Baker” and the chance of getting a coveted handshake from a judge. The trophy at the end for the winner is just a cake stand. Seems to me that the show creators came up with a perfect formula for how to reward folks and inspire the high quality work.
We talk about competition and collaboration as if they are a dichotomy. They aren’t. The core of a good reward system is kindness, encouragement, celebrating success, and honest feedback. Whether it is winner take all or a group activity has nothing to do with it, imo.
For sure, and I contributed to that false dichotomy talk and I am sorry for that.
But, the nature of sports is competition. We see the rare photos and videos of the runner who helps another runner who has fallen, but every Monday night during football season it’s about who can make the hardest tackle, and beat the other team, etc. The NFL is not about “kindness, encouragement, celebrating success, and honest feedback”.
One would hope that Pop Warner or PeeWee or Little League or other leagues for young kids would be, but when the pinnacle of competitive sport is guys beating the crap out of each other it’s easy for parents and coaches and maybe the little players who want to be like their idols to get carried away by the negative side of competition.
The runners who help each other across the finish lines, the brother who pushes his brother’s wheelchair in the marathon, the long distance swimmer who strives to compete with herself to swim the English Channel the fastest, or even the mountain climber who climbs mountains because they are there — those kind of people in sports are inspirational.
And for sure athletes of all kinds who are pushing themselves to their limits and past them, working so hard, are inspirational. I remember Michael Jordan playing when he had the flu in that NBA playoff game (I think). That was for sure inspirational and MJ is one of the great competitors in sports. And he deserved every trophy he got!