Truth Behind Horror Stories in Big Law?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>cellardweller - thank you for sharing.</p>

<p>A few quick thoughts on your experience: UConn is a highly respected law school (somewhere around #40, always in the top 50) and the tuition is very reasonable for in-state residents. Also, Hartford is much less expensive than other areas. </p>

<p>Paying in-state sticker at UConn is a far cry from paying sticker at a peer school (e.g. Cardozo), and is certainly a much smarter move than paying sticker at Suffolk. Nothing against Cardozo or Suffolk, but students are taking an absurd financial gamble by paying $200,000 for those degrees.</p>

<p>It would probably be easier to start your own practise if you are in your mid-40s and have run things before, been out in the world, etc. I can’t imagine that many 25-year-olds would do that, have the confidence for it, and would have the expertise in a subject that could bring high-paying clients to the table. (That said, one of my law school classmates started his own practise and is now this Rising Star, Top 40 Under 40, etc.)</p>

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<p>ariesathena:

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<p>You are right that is uncommon to start your own law practice straight out of law school but certainly not unheard of. Probably, david’s route where you first gain experience in a small firm can be very valuable before getting out on your own. But as you point out, I think it is large part an issue of confidence. I remember starting my first tech business at 25, straight out of engineering school. While uncommon at the time it is much less so now. Law is obviously different and you are supposed to counsel others. That can feel overwhelming if you have never been out “in the real world”. At the same time, the straup costs are very low and there are creative ways to get paid. The hourly billing systenm is actually a fairly recent invention, and it was not that long ago that attorneys were paid per job, just like most other professionals such as doctors, accountants and architects. I have found my clients like my flat retainer model much more ythan hourly billing and they are not afraid of calling me anytime they want an answer. We adjust it yearly based on expectations.</p>

<p>I have a daugher interested in law. I am advising her to get some business experience before going to law school. It is the norm for those who want to go to business school and should be the norm for those who want to go to law school as well. You are much more likely to be employed after law school if you have some prior work experience, especially if it is in some technical field such as IP, tax or banking law. It will be much easier to get good internships and eventually an offer from a firm. I am also a firm believer that the days of working for somebody else for most of your career are long gone: companies have no loyalties towards the people they hire and see the workforce as mostly disposable or fungible. Throughout history, attorneys or counselors were mostly solo practitioners or in very small groups, just like doctors. The BigLaw structure with hundreds of attorneys is a recent invention and the business model is clearlry outdated in our modern economy. If you know how to start your own business, you will always have a fallback option. It can be stressful but not more than worrying if you will get the next promotion or even keep the job you have.</p>

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<p>Cellardweller, you are incredibly smart and your experience is very important for young people to see.</p>

<p>The only caution would be that if someone had huge undergrad and law school debt, it would probably be very hard to make it through the start-up period while paying debt with no income.</p>

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<p>zoosermom:</p>

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<p>That is a very good point and that is in part why I advise young people to get some work experience first. In addition to learning on the job they can save some money towards law school. They may well also find that they don’t actually want to practice law at all and can change their mind before being saddled with huge debt. Finally, they will gain some maturity which will help enormously when they finally do practice law. They will have better interviewing skills and will sound more professional when they meet clients. </p>

<p>Based on her LSAT prep results and grades in college, I believe my D has a good shot at eventually getting admitted to a top law school if that is what she wants to do. Still, I would not necessarily advise her to take on major debt to attend a top private law school. Depending on what area she wants to practice in, she could save a lot of money by paying instate tuition at UConn. Right now I am trying to help her find a good corporate internship this coming summer which may lead to a job by the time she graduates from college, possibly as some type of paralegal. She has already helped me doing patent research and can decipher a balance sheet, and I am just pushing her to acquire as many useful business skills as possible. She likes to travel so I suggested she learn Mandarin as very few attorneys are conversant in chinese and the opportunities in international law are vast.</p>

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<p>expanding a little on what cellardweller said, I think a key to success today in going it alone is concentrating on a specialty that few other lawyers do, making yourself the best in this particular area of the law and making yourself invaluable. For example, everybody wants to be a personal injury trial lawyer, but if you become an expert on structured settlements, dealing with Medicare - Medicaid subrogation issues, etc., you will soon have more business than you can have. Not many have the background cellardweller has and so could transform into his type of practice, but many of us are smart enough to master almost all subjects if we take the time to do so. So look around in your town. What areas are underrepresented by the legal community, but are areas still vital to the practice of law. Perhaps becoming an expert on Federal Compensation under the Longshoreman Act will make you valuable in your corner of the world. Maybe concentrating on employment law issues . . gosh knows plenty of people are being taken advantage of by their employers, etc. etc. It might be tough to go out there, hang up a shingle, and be a generalist. Then you are just another lawyer doing divorces. But if you can find that niche you can likely be very successful.</p>

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<p>Cellardweller, yours is a great story. May I come to work for you instead? I have a combined MD/PhD and hold three revenue-generating patents, two of which I wrote largely myself since my university patent lawyer thought it would go better with its highly technical nature. I am of course writing this in jest but just want to state here my admiration of your accomplishments.</p>

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<p>You could always start out as a humble criminal defense attorney, then make $100m from your first asbestos case and then become the owner of the Baltimore Orioles.</p>

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<p>Georgetown report on the legal system:</p>

<p>“…unsustainable model…”</p>

<p>Enough said.</p>

<p><a href=“Office of Executive and Continuing Legal Education | Georgetown Law”>Office of Executive and Continuing Legal Education | Georgetown Law;

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<p>Reading it now from another site, lol! </p>

<p>Here were the portions people are discussing: </p>

<p>** A Changed Market Reality</p>

<p>It would be tempting to think that all of the dramatic changes in the legal market over the past four years are attributable solely to the economic downturn that has shaken the developed world since 2008 and that everything will go “back to normal” once economic stability and growth return. From this point of view, one would argue that
the crisis in the legal market has been driven entirely by a precipitous drop in the overall demand for legal services and that we will be able to get back to business as usual as soon as demand returns, as it surely must. Unfortunately, however, this argumentoversimplifies both the causes and the likely effects of the changes we are seeing.</p>

<p>While it is clearly true that the economic downturn has been the proximate cause of much of the disruption we have seen in the legal market, the recession alone does not tell the whole story. Even in the boom years of the decade preceding 2008, other important market forces were at work gradually building toward an inflection point. The financial crisis of 2008 may well have accelerated those forces – and perhaps even exacerbated them – but these underlying market shifts would sooner or later have resulted in fundamental changes in the legal industry even absent an economic crisis. Among the underlying market forces that have been most important in driving change, several deserve special mention. These include:</p>

<p>• The growing availability of public information about law firms and their capabilities, practices, clients, earnings, and profits that has driven an ever more competitive and efficient market for legal services over the past three decades; 29</p>

<p>• The inexorable drive toward the commoditization of legal services that has impacted the work of lawyers at all levels; 30</p>

<p>• The growth of enabling technologies that has accelerated the drive toward commoditization, tended to level the competitive playing field between large firms and smaller ones, and changed legal staffing patterns by simplifying tasks that were previously labor intensive; 31</p>

<p>• The emergence of non-traditional service providers that are creating new forms of competition in the legal market; 32</p>

<p>• The changing roles of in-house general counsel and corporate law departments that have increasingly displaced outside law firms as the primary “trusted legal advisors” to corporate CEOs, often relegating outside counsel to specialized advice only; 33</p>

<p>• The impact of globalization that has resulted in growing challenges for firms seeking to serve the needs of their clients on a worldwide scale and, over time, will result in a significant shift in global economic activity; 34 and</p>

<p>• The collapse of an unsustainable economic model that drove law firm growth for a decade essentially on the ability of firms to raise their rates 6 to 8 percent a year with little regard for the economic impact of their decisions. 35</p>

<p>The combination of these factors with the effects of the economic downturn of the last four years has resulted in at least two critical shifts in the market for legal services. First, there has been a shift from the seller’s market that traditionally dominated the legal industry to a buyer’s market that will likely remain the prevailing model for the foreseeable future. What this means is that all of the critical decisions related to the structure and delivery of legal services – including judgments about scheduling, staffing, scope of work, level of effort, pricing, etc. – are now being made primarily by clients and not by their outside lawyers. This represents a fundamental shift in the relationship between lawyers and their clients.</p>

<p>Reflecting the increasing power of clients to define the terms of the attorney/client relationship, this shift has resulted in a new emphasis on efficiency and cost effectiveness in the delivery of legal services. Although obviously not true in all cases, clients increasingly] make decisions to hire outside lawyers on the basis of how efficiently, cost effectively, and predictably they can deliver the services the client requires, with quality being taken as a given. As a result, to an extent barely imaginable only a few years ago, firms have found themselves increasingly locked in procurement processes where clients are asking hard questions about schedules, staffing, work process efficiencies, and cost.
**</p>

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<p>and lastly: </p>

<p>** The second critical shift in the legal market in the last four years has been the dramatic increase in competition among firms. In the pre-recession world, when the demand for legal services was growing at a healthy clip of some 4 percent a year, most firms could grow and prosper simply by capturing a reasonable share of the new business being generated. Since 2008, however, the reality has changed. In a period of shrinking or sluggish demand growth, the only way (short of a merger) for a firm to capture market share is to take it from another firm, a circumstance that inevitably results in a ratcheting up of competition in the market. Given current economic trends, it appears likely that the legal market will remain in this state of heightened competition for at least a few more years. Moreover, even as the demand for legal services begins to grow again, it is likely (as noted below) to come back in significantly different ways – ways that may
not lessen overall competition among firms.</p>

<p>To adapt successfully to these new market realities, firms will need to be much more strategically focused than in the past. In a significantly more competitive environment, it will be critical for firms to understand their unique strengths and to identify what differentiates them from their competitors. It will also be critical for law firm leaders to focus on how their firms can respond effectively to client demands for more efficiency and cost effectiveness in the delivery of legal services. That will mean, among other things, a willingness to abandon the traditional “one size fits all” mentality that has often dominated legal management thinking and to adopt more flexible approaches that can tailor staffing and leverage, technology support, work processes, and pricing models to meet the needs of particular clients in particular situations.</p>

<p>Fortunately, there is evidence that many law firm leaders understand the realities of the changed market and the imperative for their firms to act decisively to address them. For example, more than 90 percent of the managing partners and chairs surveyed by Altman Weil in its 2012 Law Firms in Transition Survey said that the recent recession served as a “permanent accelerator of trends that already existed” or as a “game changer” for the legal market. And a substantial majority now sees trends like increased pricing competition, more commoditization of legal work, more non-hourly billing, fewer equity partners, more contract lawyers, reduced leverage, and smaller first year classes as permanent trends going forward. 36 However, a substantial majority of respondents also had much less confidence that their partners understand or appreciate the challenges of the new legal market. 37 And some 60 percent indicated that, thus far, law firms have shown only a low level of seriousness about changing their legal service delivery model. 38 This latter view was also confirmed by an Altman Weil survey of corporate chief legal officers in 2011, with the exception that the corporate CLOs ranked law firm seriousness even lower. 39 Plainly there is more work to be done. **</p>

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<p>When I went to lawschool, I selected a night lawschool . . third tier, over a full time first tier school (first tier being the top 50) who accepted me. Working full time and going to school at night was really, as I recall, a happy time. I had no obligations other than to myself so could easily meet the time requirement. My full time job paid my tuition, and I had no stress about getting a job when I graduated. Turns out I did get a job, first with a prosecutor, shortly thereafter a larger defense firm and then went out and hung up my own shingle. A little yellow page advertising, and I was making six figures more than twenty years ago after my second year in solo practice.</p>

<p>I say this because everything I read, and read back then, was how difficult solo practice was to make it. I never found that to be true for myself. People who know how to try cases will never be replaced by computers and will always have a valuable asset. Face it, the average person out there is not going to learn the law and the rules of evidence and try to represent themselves.</p>

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<p>Weird question, but figured this would be the place to ask it! </p>

<p>I know how brutal biglaw hours can be at times. I understand that you guys get paid very well for your work at the same time! </p>

<p>I do wonder, however, if there are people who actually enjoy the 80-hour work week? As in genuinely and purely enjoy it - not just the hours, but the actual work as well? </p>

<p>I kind of figured that many people merely tolerate the hours and/or work as it is structured in biglaw, but wonder if anyone really loves that lifestyle? Would those people be the partners? Or, do you guys think even the partners tolerate it and do it more for the money?</p>

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<p>There are many, many (most? all?) partners who believe that they enjoy it, actually. It’s an opportunity to learn new things constantly, it’s a relatively social job (especially as a partner), and these are very driven folks who are aiming to meet certain milestones not just for the material benefit (money), but for the inherent pleasure of meeting the goals you’ve set for yourself.</p>

<p>Whether they’re really happier than they would be taking a little more time for their families and relationships, I don’t know. But certainly they take great pleasure in their work.</p>

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<p>I don’t believe most partners truly love it, but some do. I knew a couple of folks who came in whistling every morning, excited for the day.</p>

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<p>One of the most successful lawyers I know absolutely loves it. He is just overjoyed, gleeful, even, that he gets to come to his job every day. Physically energetic and eager, happy and optimistic. It’s wonderful to see someone who is so nice being so happy AND successful.</p>

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<p>zoosermom,</p>

<p>This question may be a bit abstract, if not vague, but would you say that someone could think themselves into this state? I mean, it’s not like people are born to like working 80 hours per week.</p>

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<p>“it’s not like people are born to like working 80 hours per week.”</p>

<p>Oh, I think some are. Maybe not literally born, but there are some people whose internal pistons just fire that much. The people zm and I are talking about are not fooling themselves, and they’re not going to wake up at age 65 saying “What have I done?” They are rare, and they are truly doing what they love.</p>

<p>This is a little easier to understand if you imagine a transplant surgeon, or a Special Ops soldier, or even an Iron Man triathlete. These folks get high off of tackling the toughest challenges the world has to offer. They want to be called on in an emergency when seconds count and everyone’s back is to the wall. It’s a little harder to see why a lawyer would feel this way, but this cohort does. To them, a big case or deal is an adventure, and they get to be the Luke Skywalker (or Peyton Manning) in today’s legal Superbowl.</p>

<p>It’s not how I felt, but then again, I don’t want to be a transplant surgeon or mountain climber, either.</p>

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<p>I am one of those partners who works 80+ hours a week most weeks. I do love my work. I have interesting and varied clients with a very diverse set of legal and business issues that intrigue and challenge me. That said, after working from 8 a.m. yesterday morning straight through to 4:30 a.m. this morning, sleeping for 1 1/2 hours, and then getting up to start the process all over again, I could really use a nap. Another night like that one tonight (which is likely) and I will definitely be pretty cranky tomorrow. Hopefully, I will get some sleep this weekend, but with a husband, kids and more work that will need to get done (probably another 12 hours or so of work - not too bad this weekend), I can’t take naps or sleep in. </p>

<p>That’s my reality.</p>

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<p>Oh, and by the way, while I treat them with the utmost respect, the associates working for me on the matters keeping me up so late are working even longer hours than I am, and with less control over when they work those hours. Again, that’s just the reality.</p>

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<p>It is very possible to love Big Law and to not mind working 80 hour plus weeks. It is virtually impossible however to get by on 1.5 hours of sleep a night, especially for several nights in a row. Studies now show that too little sleep is a very significant health risk. Regardless, too little sleep and you will be functioning at far less than peak capacity. Anyway, for all those who love Big Law, there are many who hate it. I assume lots of this is dependent on how much control a person has over his own life and how interesting his assignments. I would think the partners at these firms have it much better than the associates.</p>

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<p>Thus the reason there are so many web postings about how miserable so many associates in Big Law. Unfortunately, Legal Education today is so expensive that the only hope a young lawyer has in paying off his loans, sometimes exceeding several hundred thousand, is by working big law (if they can get it of course), and they can then be grateful for being indentured servants with the ability to eventually pay off their loans.</p>