<p>I’ve pulled all-nighters. I can do it for a couple nights, maybe three on 1.5 hours of sleep. But my brain is hardly working. </p>
<p>Is there something about the atmosphere of your firm or the drugs you take that keep you from crashing and keep you performing? Or, are you walking around in a zombie state and barely scraping by with your body’s last dregs of energy, tasked with work so simple that you don’t need a fully functioning brain to complete it? </p>
<p>I learned long ago that all nighters are never worth it. Your productivity and mental alertness take such a hit the following day that the cost far outweighs the benefit. Especially, being in trial requires mental acuity and you are making a big mistake if you don’t get a good nights sleep.</p>
<p>I also take with a grain of salt anybody who claims to get by on such little sleep. I think its fashionable to say how you worked all night because it gives you a certain image that big law lawyers are supposed to maintain, but I just don’t believe it hardly ever happens absent a large use of medications, which aren’t in the long run doing you any good.</p>
<p>I don’t take drugs (other than the caffeine in coffee), nor am I in a zombie state. For me, it’s the adrenaline that keeps me going. The work I am doing when I am up those crazy hours is not mundane, and having to keep focused keeps my energy up. The work is constant (thankfully) because if there was any down time, I would certainly crash and have a very difficult time recovering. When I have to pull those kinds of hours, I make a special effort to drink a ton of water and eat well (it is harder than you would think not to eat crappy food when you are on the run). It really does help. Sometimes, even 15-20 minutes running on a treadmill in the gym downstairs does wonders, too.</p>
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<p>You can take it with a pound of salt for all I care. It’s not fun, but I do manage to get by on so little sleep on a fairly regular basis (these days especially). Believe me, I don’t need to uphold any kind of image at this point in my career, and I couldn’t care less (and it hardly matters) what others think of the hours I keep, so long as my clients are happy and they keep coming back for more. Again, I don’t take meds to stay awake. I would instantaneously drop any attorney from my teams who was taking off-label prescription, illegal or other meds to stay awake. If they can’t hack it, they need to find another career. I am not about to risk all that I’ve built on some kid who took Aderall to get through exams and thinks some version of that is still okay now. </p>
<p>Two things I was told very early on in my career:
(1) The competent get punished. Often those who are the best at what they do are the most in demand. That applies both to young associates and senior partners.<br>
(2) Making partner is like winning a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie. Self explanatory. At many Biglaw firms, the first few years of partnership are tougher on an hours-billed and business generation basis than the last few years as a senior associate. That was certainly my experience. Even as a senior partner, and even with leveraging down the work to dozens of associates, if you have a lot of separate matters ongoing, or if your client has a particularly sensitive matter, or if the stars align just right, you will work terribly long hours.</p>
<p>Clearly, Sally likes what she’s doing. Is that what everyone would want? Well, she gives a pretty vivid picture of what a partner in a big law firm does. Whether it’s for you or not jw-well, that’s a personal decision. Er, a personal decision to be made after doing very well at a very highly ranked law school, then making it through the immensely competitive associate grind.</p>
<p>I just don’t believe it is possible, physically or mentally, to constantly get by on just a few hours of sleep a night, especially in a high stress job requiring concentration and mental agility. . . unless you are on drugs. I’m not sure what non-mundane work sally is talking about that keeps her going, but I cannot think of anything that requires as much concentration and attention as trying cases. Between voir dire, legal arguments at the bench, direct and cross examinations, opening and closing arguments, having to always be on your toes, days and weeks at a time, the very worst thing you can do is not get a good nights sleep. one night of little sleep will severely affect your next day’s performance. Two nights in a row, and you have likely committed malpractice. </p>
<p>If there is one thing I have learned . . to deal with everything busy lawyers have to deal with:</p>
<p>1) Make time for regular exercise and eat well
2) Get at least seven hours of sleep a night (I suppose some people can get by on less, but not many).</p>
<p>If you don’t do this, you will not only never work at your peak performance but you will be causing severe damage to your health, especially in the long run.</p>
<p>One only need look at many attorneys by the time they have reached middle age and many of them look like they are coronaries waiting to happen. Clearly many of us eat and drink too much and exercise too little. Whatever the economic and mental benefits somebody might get out of being a hard working lawyer, is this outcome worth it?</p>
<p>As for big law, not sure how we are defining it (I’ve worked for a forty man law office . . highly aggressive trial lawyers in the past . . starting out), I know we worked hard, billed many hours . . but still, even then, I put a priority on getting adequate exercise and sleep. I think that is why I am still in the game. I can physically and mentally handle it. Many lawyers my age have already cashed in their chips, and quite a few relatively young guys my age or younger have already passed on. All that hard work . . never sleeping. Never eating for health. I wonder if their families think it was worth it.</p>
<p>By the way Sally, have you ever reached the point where you feel like you have already received enough pie, or are you always looking for more? If after years of practice you still don’t have “enough”, you may want to reassess your life goals.</p>
<p>You already know this, but I’m going to tell you anyway. I just didn’t know any better. I’m sorry if I was being rude before. I want to thank you for you keeping up that grind for your clients.</p>
<p>And if I were to be honest with myself, I would find your dedication inspirational.</p>
<p>When did you first begin putting forth this kind of effort? Did it all start when you became an associate? I’ve actually never met someone in undergrad who had such dedication to something. Maybe when you get into a law firm and see everyone around you putting in those kinds of hours, you could actually find the will to do it yourself? Like you said, you are constantly being pushed by those you work with and those you work for. If it weren’t for that, you would probably crash hard. So I guess a lot of it has to do with the atmosphere, and it’s the kind of atmosphere that pushes you to your limits. That’s what I’m looking for in law. To the poster above me, surely you can believe her story?</p>
<p>Also, I want to mention that the last big firm litigator who I spoke with said he took Adderall to make it through his 16-hr days, so I irrationally believed that this was the norm. My mistake.</p>
<p>Let’s be clear. This lifestyle is not for everyone. If I had a choice, I would love to have one of those mythical 9 to 5 jobs I hear about, but living in NYC, I’m pretty sure that those are just an urban legend. I know a whole lot of people who work a whole lot of hours for a lot less than I will ever receive. </p>
<p>Here’s the reality check. Most law firm partners at top Biglaw firms (particularly in corporate/securities/M&A/private equity practice areas) would and could go and work at investment banks if they were really focused only on the money. (Believe me, most of my clients make a whole heck of a lot more money than I will ever make.) Many do leave. Some leave and then come back. I did go in house for a while, but I was one of those who returned to the law firm for a variety of reasons. </p>
<p>You would actually be surprised at how little partners at many Biglaw firms take home compared to the gross profits of a firm - the numbers you typically find in partner profit tables are guesses - and the net numbers often tell a different story. A partner’s take home pay can depend upon a lot of factors, including (not applicable to all firms) how efficient and cost-effective a firm is (including overhead costs), whether the partner is paying off a loan from the firm taken to buy into the partnership, a particular partner’s years in or other measure of stature, profits attributable to that particular partner, etc. Plenty of young partners are taking home less money than very senior associates at their own firms. Plenty of Biglaw firms are just not very profitable (at least comparatively). Sure, not too many law firm partners are starving, but most are also not living the life of wealth and excess you may imagine. No sob story here - just setting the scene.</p>
<p>A bit of background. Should I reassess my life goals because maybe I already have enough? Maybe. That depends upon your definition of enough. I live in a lovely home. My kids go to great schools. We are comfortable enough to take a nice vacation every year, and we don’t live paycheck to paycheck. We are also able to put away some money for retirement and for a rainy day. </p>
<p>However, my husband and I each put ourselves through college and graduate school/law school and had the massive student loans to prove it. We didn’t have two pennies to rub together after living expenses and loan payments for six or seven years after graduation. We put away the maximum amounts into our 401k accounts because neither of our jobs has a pension upon retirement (assuming that we never get laid off, which is never a given in this world today). We help to support our parents and our grandparents. We give generously to charity. We pay a fortune in federal, state, local and property taxes (approximately 50% of our gross incomes). We drive nice cars, but they are 5 and 7 years old, and mine has over 100,000 miles on it. We have had to spend our rainy day funds in their entirety twice during our careers, and that was a huge drain on us financially. </p>
<p>I am not complaining. Life is good. But if I have to work this hard so that my kids will be able to choose paths that don’t involve working these kinds of hours if they wish, then heck yes, I will continue to do so. So, tonight, as I’m working until 3 a.m., I will remember that I got to spend a significant portion of the day with my family outside on a beautiful spring day. (Today - worked from 6 - 9 a.m., 2-5 p.m. (though in my office downstairs near the family), and now 10 p.m. - 3 a.m.ish).</p>
<p>To each their own Sally. My wife went part time when our first was born and gave up her job entirely when our second was born. We felt her time with the kids would be more beneficial than additional income. Just got back from Spain where they have a several hour Siesta in the middle of the afternoon. They know how to live. I suppose the hardest working people in the world are Americans, and the hardest working Americans are in New York City. I guess we have to always ask ourselves are the sacrifices we make for work worth it? Personally, I believe without a healthy balance between work and non work, adequate sleep on a regular basis, and adequate opportunity to exercise on a daily basis, the answer is a resounding No. To others, being at the top of their professions, that makes it all worthwhile. </p>
<p>By the way, I’ve never been an investment banker, but can’t think of a more worthless profession. Lawyers at least help people or businesses. Investment banking used to be about the Capitalization of America. Now its all about trading and profits . . producing absolutely nothing but fortunes for those who are successful at it. Corporate America has failed the country, which is why the stock market goes up (the corporations are doing fine) but the people, especially young people, are for the most part without decent jobs. Short term profits trump everything else. The Late Great United States.</p>
<p>“I just don’t believe it is possible, physically or mentally, to constantly get by on just a few hours of sleep a night, especially in a high stress job requiring concentration and mental agility. . . unless you are on drugs.”</p>
<p>Soldiers do it. If Moby Dick is to be believed, whalers did it. Working parents with colicky babies have to do it, too. When the chips are down, a lot of people can do it. What’s rare is the ability to be HAPPY doing it. I can’t.</p>
<p>Just throwing this out there: NYC is absurdly expensive; it makes Boston look affordable. IMHO, it’s easier to have “enough” in Dallas or Chicago or Atlanta than it is in San Fran or NYC, simply because the cost of living is so different. </p>
<p>I know NYC law firm partners who are married to law firm partners who really are not ‘rich’ in any meaningful sense of the word. They are certainly doing very well and will have money in retirement, but they simply are not living the life that people in other cities live. In Boston or Philly or Atlanta, I know of doctors with stay-at-home wives, or law firms partners married to people in non-profits, who have houses in nice towns, second homes on the Cape or the Vineyard, who put the kids through college, and basically do it all on one very strong salary. NYC is different.</p>
<p>With all due respect, I am not going to get into a debate about staying home with the kids versus being a working mom. Each family must make this decision for themselves and I have tremendous respect for everyone making such a gut-wrenching determination. For my family, given our tremendous financial obligations, it was never even a possibility that I could stop working. Truth told, though I would have liked to work less, I wouldn’t change another thing about being a working mom. </p>
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<p>I have no horse in this race, but investment bankers (with their friends in private equity) are a significant part of the engine that drives growth in and takes risks on companies across America. Without external financing, many of the companies that employ thousands of Americans just wouldn’t be. Most investment bankers work at least as many hours as I do, and they earn their keep in sweat, little sleep and other personal sacrifices.</p>
<p>This whole “corporate America has failed the country” line is really getting old. Corporate America does not exist to serve the nation - companies answer to their stockholders. Stockholders have the option to “vote with their feet” and sell their shares any time they are not happy with corporate performance. If you want to point fingers, instead please talk to our gridlocked, intent on saddling every bill with boatloads of irrelevant crap, unable to get along any better than a kindergarten class, Congress. Our legislators are actually elected for the sole purpose of serving their constituents.</p>
<p>What risk? Aren’t they too big to fail? Didn’t the government save them in 2008 with Tarp. How is it a risk if heads I win, tails you lose? They played the game and lost and brought the country down with them, but they were the only ones who ended up smelling like roses. Even Goldman got a bailout from Buffet and the USA.</p>
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<p>With all due respect, spoken like a corporate attorney. I would not expect you to have a different opinion. Technically you are correct. They owe only their shareholders. Realistically, so many of these corporations are depraved that they don’t even meet this definition. Instead they take care only of their CEO’s, executive managements and their Boards. And yes, they have proven they don’t care about their rank and file, nor do they care about the public. So I can’t argue with you on that one. As for the Gridlock, a lot of that is driven by the lobbying of, well . . . CORPORATE AMERICA.</p>
Also the buy-in can be very shocking to some people in their partnership year. Also the need to justify their professional lives every year even after partnership.</p>
<p>I’m a little surprised at how nasty this thread has become.</p>
<p>I knew a partner who is now a federal judge who, during times of working very long hours, would do calisthenics or jog around the office. He was also a maniac about nutrition. Actually, many lawyers I know are very careful about what they put into their bodies.</p>
<p>Agreed! Fitness and nutrition are key. Our firm cafeteria has many very healthy, gluten free and vegetarian options to satisfy almost every nutritional need. In addition, I know that I run regularly (it’s amazing how head clearing a good run can be), and I’ve run distances up to marathons with some regularity. I am far from alone - many of my colleagues run, swim, do triathlons, etc. </p>
<p>I learned back in college (when I had three jobs and a full course load), and it remains true today, that it is amazing how efficient you can be when there is no room for wasted time.</p>
To be very blunt, lawyers need corporations more than businessmen need lawyers. Businesses can survive on handshake deals; lawyers need someone to pay them for all of their helping of people. </p>
<p>Incidentally, even non-profit lawyers are functionally being paid from corporate or human profits - those donations to the non-profit enable them to hire lawyers.</p>
<p>Well that’s good. I see the exact opposite. When I go to the local bar meetings, I am amazed at how so many lawyers have allowed their bodies to go to pot. Now of course, this is true among the general population also. But a lawyer, especially those who do a lot of wining and dining, needs to be doubly careful to eat properly and get proper exercise. If their office hours are very demanding, I would think that would make it that much tougher to find the time to worry about health. And if you are a young associate always under the gun in this very tough legal environment, I can see how they will make the mistake of foregoing their health to ensure they put as many hours as possible at the office.</p>
<p>For myself, I have always made my health a top priority. Even when I worked at a relatively large, litigation firm in my city, I would work out in the morning or the evening religiously. But that did to some degree cut into the hours I spent at the office.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with you ariesathena. I’ve made some big bucks in my career during certain years, and that would not have been possible without large corporations or insurance companies. These corporations make the world go round. Still, many of them have shown incredible contempt for their own workers and common shareholders over the last few decades. Greed and short term profits have replaced Loyalty and decency at many of these places. As for the investment bankers, I blame them for the plight of our economy. They knew what was going on and knew better but torpedoed the economy anyway for their own greed. I laugh when I read how a few rogue traders have cost their companies billions. I suppose if you are a trader and want to make a lot of money and the controls are lax . . go for the gusto. You are gambling with your employer’s money only after all, not your own. If you are successful, you will be rewarded by your employer with riches. If not, you simply lose your job. Pretty good gig if you can get it.</p>
<p>i think it is important for prospective lawyers, especially those who have dreams of biglaw, to really hear what sallywp is saying. what she says is pretty typical for what i saw among partners at the firms i worked at. if asked point blank if they loved working crazy hours, those partners might have said of course not, they’d love more time with family, but they’d also say how much they found the work stimulating, how the adrenaline carried them, how much satisfaction they got out of it, how much they expected of themselves and those they worked with, the importance of meeting client expectation, etc. (at this point, i am relying on what i knew of the partners i worked with and am not presuming to speak for sallywp - she does a fine job of speaking for herself).</p>
<p>too often i’ve heard people justify (to themselves) the hours they would have to put in for “several years” as an associate thinking there is a light at the end of the tunnel. but to continue the metaphor, the tunnel is in and of itself the destination; it leads to more tunnel! good work means more work. more responsibility, means being held responsible. its not a burden being imposed by the partners – its them sharing what they expect of themselves. so if you can’t see yourself thriving in the tunnel, don’t put yourself in it to begin with.</p>
<p>That’s all well and good Unbelievable, but the reason so many kids go to big law these days is because of the prestige and the money. Not sure if there is any more to it than that. I do know, at least from statistics, that many people in Big Law are very unhappy and depression is high. So for every Sally who thrives in that sort of environment, there may be just as many others who play the game but deep down are miserable. I of course don’t know this for a fact. I do know when I worked in my litigation firm, I was VERY happy. I really enjoyed the work. I was trying cases in Federal Court six months after I started there. Don’t know if I would be happy now if I were still there. I think the demands would have slowly worn me down.</p>
<p>truthseeker – i think that is a big part of the problem – if people are going to work there for the money and the prestige without really being ready and willing for how it is they are going to have to earn it, it is quite understandable that many end up unhappy. and prospective lawyers need to think about this well ahead of time – even before many may be able to fully comprehend it - because law school debt can make it very hard to walk away from the money (assuming you can get such a job) when you do find yourself that unhappy.</p>