Two at a time ...

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I’m the parent of two juniors and am new to this board … looks like I’m here for the long haul! D and S are both strong students – high GPAs in APs and honors in mid-sized very competitive public HS. Both are well-rounded and have a good amount of meaningful ECs and community service. However, no team sports – no legacies – no obvious hooks other than leadership in several school publications. They will definitely go to separate schools but there may be overlap in applying to some. We’re begun thinking about visitations – their lists are varied right now as they are just beginning to explore possibilities of LACs, mid-sized universities, etc. Right now neither is leaning toward large state schools though we are planning on visiting at least one to see what a large state school offers. At this point, D has expressed a strong desire for small classes; S has not indicated preferences yet. Schools on their preliminary lists include Tufts, Emory, Brandeis, Wash U, Oberlin, Wesleyan, GW, Rochester, Swarthmore, Smith, BU, MD College Park, Duke, Brown, Cornell, and Yale. We recognize that several of these schools (especially the Ivies) may be reaches … having difficulty determining the difference between realistic matches/safeties for both D and S. Any feedback from parents who have specific experiences with any of these schools would be appreciated, as well as additional suggestions for schools to look into. Also, is there a specific place on this board where people have posted info on their school visitations?</p>

2

<p>Of the schools I'm familiar with, I think you can make some groupings:</p>

<p>Yale will be at the top in terms of admissions difficulty. From a public high school with no clear "hook" or unusual selling proposition, I wouldn't even bother unless I had the highest class rank (like #1 or #2) and 1500+ SATs. There are exceptions, of course, but that would be a reasonable guideline.</p>

<p>Swarthmore, Brown, and Duke are roughly in a group in terms of selectivity, although they will each tend to favor different attributes and attract different kinds of students. There's probably a decent amount of overlap between Swarthmore and Brown -- not as much between Swat and Duke.</p>

<p>I would say that Emory, Wesleyan, WashU, George Washington, and Cornell would probably be a tick easier -- again, they may tend to favor different attributes.</p>

<p>Subscribing to the USNEWS college rankings on-line edition for $9.95 is a worthwhile investment. Mostly because it allows you to sort lists of colleges by things like "selectivity rank", median SAT scores, acceptance rate, etc. Sometimes the admissions difficulty is markedly different than the overall rank. I found that being able to isolate "selectivity" was useful in trying to get a handle on matches, reaches, etc. Unfortunately, these lists are heavily SAT driven, so you have to use a little judgement in evaluating the rest of the package. Reading "The Gatekeepers" about admissions at Wesleyan will be a big help in making that kind of subjective assessment.</p>

3

<p>Hi! I don't know if this helps, but I'm a twin, too! My brother and I are also looking at different places, but a couple do overlap. We actually just got back from a college trip to the east coast one week ago, where we saw Tufts, Brown, and Yale (among others, but these were the ones on your list). Also, 2 summers ago we visited BU. If you have any questions at all, don't hesitate to ask! :)</p>

4

<p>Twinmom, You are in the right place at the right time. Junior year is the time for a confluence of events: counselors’ input, college visits, discussions with other parents and friends (culminating it seems in talk about nothing else). There is a wealth of information on this board. You can search under college names or just start posting specific (or general) questions. You will get some sage advice.</p>

<p>Your kids’ first round list looks good, although I’d widen it a bit. Since they’re interested in Swarthmore and Wesleyan I’d look at Amherst and Williams as these four schools have significant overlap. I’d also suggest that you and your twins plan to devote a significant amount of time researching and identifying true safety schools that don’t give you an uneasy feeling. It’s fairly easy to learn to get enthusiastic for the selectives; safeties take more nurturing. But they are out there and loving your safety is the secret to sleeping at night for the next 18 months.</p>

<p>My son is now a sophomore at Williams. We visited many of the schools on your list and had Williams not risen to the top he would have liked Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Brown, and Yale as well. I stress, all of these were reaches for him. For the more realistic range he liked Skidmore, Kenyon and Hamilton. Mid-Junior year he probably had 30 schools on his to investigate list. He visited 14. As it turned out he was accepted ED so only actually applied to one, but was prepared to apply to about 8. </p>

<p>The selective colleges are looking for interesting kids. They have zillions of smart accomplished applicants, so those that succeed are generally speaking those with something that makes them stand out on paper. You say that your kids have no hooks. Without sounding disgenuous, I’d suggest that they concentrate on developing one, or at least focusing on a clearly defined identify. Being a twin is a good start. Maybe something in their community service or leadership role could be parlayed and expanded on. For example the twin who (fill in the blank). </p>

<p>My son had a pair of twins (girls) in his high school class and we sympathized as their parents went through the special challenges of two simultaneous, sometimes competing, applications. Down to the wire, the process was complex, plus they needed double financial aid. Twin 1 was accepted at College A and waitlisted at College B. She confirmed College A. Twin 2 was accepted at and liked college A, but deferred to her sister and confirmed College C. However when Twin 1 got off the College B waitlist, Dad called College A and asked them to switch their financial aid package to Twin 2. Which they did. The upshot was that Twin 1 is still deliriously happy at College B. Twin 2 ended up HATING College A and dropping out after a few months.</p>

5

<p>Twinmom, I will just chime in to say hello, and I am also a mother of twins, although mine are high school freshmen (I am still visiting this site sometimes because I frequented it last year when my son, now a college freshman, was applying, and like so many others found it occasionally addicting). Best of luck and you will indeed find so much on this site. </p>

<p>The parents forum tends to be the place where people post information about their college visits; you may have to scroll back a bit though since most of the visit reports were from the spring, summer, and early fall.</p>

<p>There was another mom of twins on here last year, her two are college freshmen now. Enjoyingthis, are you around :)?</p>

6

<p>Twins from our school, one is at Brown, the other at Smith, both love it. I smiled seeing your post cause of them. I know a set of twins at Brown too. </p>

<p>Of your list, we have visited Cornell, Yale, Tufts, Brown, Smith. D did not end up applying to Cornell. Applied to the other four and got into all but Yale. However, these four schools were her faves on her list and so we have been to each at least twice. She is now at Brown, by the way. I feel very familiar with those four schools and would be happy to try to answer any questions you may have. I am going out of town for the weekend to Boston for other child's college audition (am in middle of the process just one year later) so won't be answering for a couple days but let me know if I can help.
Susan</p>

7

<p>InterestedDad - Thanks for the grouping ideas. D and S are planning to take first SATs in March and should have back PSATs very soon. I have suscribed to US News online but have not yet played with the selectivity ratings ... will do so. Class rank is not definitive yet as it is early in the year. D is very close to the top but not #1 or #2. I can see that Yale is a long shot for most. I was thinking that Wash U is up there with Swarthmore, etc. and that GW would be more of a safety ... may have to further explore those notions.</p>

<p>Calidan - I'd love to hear about your impressions of Tufts, Brown, and Yale. Did you and your brother have similar impressions? My D and S are so very different in many ways. (Sometimes it's hard to believe that they were raised in the same family at the same time!) Where else did you visit?</p>

<p>Momrath - I appreciate your insights. I agree, the "hook" question is indeed the big one here. I do think that D and S each have ECs which provide clear identities and leadership. However, when I say no hooks, I am referring to the lack of team captain, musical instrument, dance, etc. We'll have to explore this "hook" concept further. As for Williams and Amherst, are they extremely sports oriented schools? As I mentioned, neither D or S are the extremely athletic type (spectator or participation.) Right now D alternates between looking at very "cerebral" schools like Swarthmore and Chicago and then has fleeting moments where she insists that high school has been so much work ... it's time to have a little fun. I think a good combination of both is in order... for both!</p>

<p>Patient - Glad to meet you - I always feel an immediate bond with other twin moms!</p>

8

<p>Welcome, Twinmom! I have several friends with twins. Though you say they will definitely go to different schools, when you check out GW, you may be interested in their half off the tuition for the second child deal. I have a neighbor with two kids a year apart in age and when it came to the second one, it was either State U or GW. With a $15 K discount, he went to GW. </p>

<p>Junior year is for perusal and possibilities. I suggest getting copies of this year's apps and filling them out over the summer. When senior year rolls around it moves so quickly and you are one jump ahead if your kids do not have to worry about apps. My son's school wants all apps out by 10/15, early or not. Just takes the pressure off and in my deductive experience, it seem that the early apps have better chances. With two going through the process you will want to make things as easy as possible.
Good luck, and have some fun.</p>

9

<br>


<br>

<p>Oops. My mistake,you are correct. I was thinking GeorgeTOWN, not George Washington!</p>

<p>UWash-Stl is a little harder to evaluate. They use a massive advertising campaign and substantial merit aid discounts to increase their number of applications. Typically, heavy merit aid discounting is used to attract top SAT scorers, so it tends to inflate the stats published in the guidebooks relative to what it really takes to get in.</p>

<p>This gets to the point I was making about different schools emphasizing different attributes. For example, my daughter goes to Swarthmore (and, in retrospect, I think she was probably a fairly solid applicant there). However, I don't think she would have gotten into Duke. Even though Swat's median SAT range is slightly higher than Duke's, I think Duke may be more SAT driven than Swarthmore and, as a non-hook applicant, my daughter's mid-pack test scores might not have been enough. Conversely, there are kids who breeze into Duke and have no shot at Swarthmore. People call this phenomenom "random", but I don't think it is. Rather, it's more about matching up the right school with the right kids.</p>

<p>BTW, I think you are doing the right thing is starting with a fairly broad range of schools. I'm a big believer in building the list from the middle (matches) out (to the safeties and reaches). I also think you are taking the right approach in considering small, medium, and large schools -- at least during the intitial survey/visit stages. Most likely, each of your kids will end up straddling the fence. For example, my daughter had small collleges and mid-sized universities on her list, but decided that large state univ. were not for her. A different kid might consider mid-sized univ and large schools, but eliminate the small colleges. I think it's encumbent on the parents to expose our kids to each of the three sizes and present them with the pluses and minuses of each.</p>

10

<p>My D has looked at many on your list. For matches, try clones of these schools with less of a national profile; they can be appealing and offer very similar environments to the top schools. Some regionally well known schools have already catapulted up (Wash Univ , Kenyon, Grinnell, etc) Others are still somewhat easier to get in (Lawrence, Beloit, Occidental.)</p>

<p>Good Luck.</p>

<p>BTW one of my best friends in College was an identical twin. She & her sis have spent their entire lives 'joined at the hip' but took a four year break during college.</p>

11

<p>"We'll have to explore this "hook" concept further."
Think of it as an easy-reference identity. Whatever their passions/interests/focuses are should be amplified and reinforced, in essays, references, accomplishments, summer activities, like building blocks of a personal profile.</p>

<p>" As for Williams and Amherst, are they extremely sports oriented schools? As I mentioned, neither D or S are the extremely athletic type (spectator or participation.) "
I can only speak for Williams. If I had to characterize the Williams student I’d say they are physically active, not necessarily in organized sports, but usually in something physical – like dancing, tennis, skiing, hiking, running etc. With the considerable academic pressure, this is a healthy distraction. My son was not involved in team sports, either as an athlete or spectator, but he likes outdoorsy pursuits like hiking and camping which made the Berkshires a good fit. Among my son's inner circle at Williams only one or two are serious athletes but all like to get outdoors and do something. They are also artists, musicians (jazz and classical) actors and activists.</p>

<p>Williams is often cited as having a disproportionate focus on sports and I guess this comes from the top administration down. But when you look at other schools with 1500-2000 students that have 20-25 varsity teams plus intramurals and club sports, the total number of students involved in athletics is probably fairly consistent across coed LACs. </p>

<p>I see more geographic and environmental difference between Williams/Amherst/Wesleyan/Swarthmore than I see in student type of academics. Except for the fact that he was interested in a field that Williams really excels at (Art History) I believe my son could have been happy any of these schools.</p>

12

<br>


<br>

<p>Maybe, if you include intramurals and club sports. But, in terms of varsity sports, Williams is at the extreme top end of the LAC scale. Here are the percentages of varsity participation of a few select LACs from the current USNEWS common data set info.</p>

<p>Williams - Male 39% - Female 27%
Amherst - Male 32% - Female 24%
Swarthmore- Male 22% - Female 21%
Pomona - Male 24% - Female 17%
Carleton - Male 25% - Female 17%
Bowdoin - Male 38% - Female 28%
Grinnell - Male 30% - Female 23%
Davidson (Div 1a) - Male 26% - Female 17%</p>

<p>Generally, the larger the school, the lower the percentage and vice versa. However, Williams (2000 undergrads) is the largest of this group of schools. Carelton is the only one that is about the same size. The rest are in the 1500 to 1600 range. For example, Haverford has very high percentages (even without football) because they only have 1100 students. Conversely, Stanford is an atheletic powerhouse compared to any of t hese schools, however has only 4% men and 4% women because the student body is so much larger.</p>

<p>To provide some context for the range represented above. Williams has 403 male and 272 female varsity athletes. Swarthmore has 153 male and 160 female varsity athletes.</p>

<p>In general, the New England schools will be the highest because they support large helmet sport teams in football AND ice hockey. Most schools outside New England don't play ice hockey. Swarthmore is the only one of this group that doesn't have a football team.</p>

13

<p>One way to amplify an EC is to attend a summer program or class that directly relates to that EC in the summer after the junior year. Some of these programs have application deadlines (Feb? March?), so the time to search for them may be in December. </p>

<p>For example, my D wants to be a science major, but her major ECs in high school were music related. She wanted to show more interest in science. So we found a 6 week summer science research program at a state college. Not only did it show out-of-school interest in science, but she could write about it in college app essays. </p>

<p>You mention that the kids have held leadership positions in school publications. High leadership positions in school publications or drum major or section leader in the band, etc. are ++. Don't discount them--after all, not everybody can be captain of the football team. </p>

<p>It's hard enough to put one through college; I can't imagine putting through 2 at the same time. Not many need help identifying reach schools--but finding suitable safeties or matches that will pony up with merit scholarships (perhaps Rochester?)could be a godsend come April senior year.</p>

14

<p>"To provide some context for the range represented above. Williams has 403 male and 272 female varsity athletes. Swarthmore has 153 male and 160 female varsity athletes."</p>

<p>Yes Williams has more varsity athletes than Swarthmore, but they also have more NON-varsity athletes than Swarthmore: 1365 vs 1144. My point is that non-athletes are not marginalized at Williams any more than athletes are derided at Swarthmore. Even the most eggheaded or quirky LACs have 20-25 different sports teams. Personally, I think this is a good thing. Sports, physical activity, health -- these are all positives for teenagers and young adults in a stressful academic and social environment.</p>

15

<p>Calidan -- You write very well. How about a Bown G'town Tufts report to pass the time until mid-December! (We realize you might be biased towards Georgetown!)</p>

16

<p>What a welcoming board! Yes, it is not only daunting thinking about all of the visits and apps, but equally overwhelming to think about two substantial tuition bills at one time. Schools which offer merit aid (and pity for twinparents) may be high on the radar screen. However, being that my two opt to spend their summers in different places, I can't imagine that they will end up at one school, though if it's large enough it could possibly work. I suppose stranger things have happened. Logistics like two back-to-back or same moving-in days and two graduations in two different geographic regions haunt me as well. Better to not go there yet!</p>

17

<p>Susan,
Many thanks. You sound like a great resource for our family. Brown is on both S and D's preliminary lists right now. In fact, S is considering a summer three week session at Brown, though he is exploring other programs as well.</p>

18

<br>


<br>

<p>I think that, because of the small sizes of the schools, LACs have to pay particular attention to the role of athletics on campus. There is a huge difference between 39% of male students being on a varsity sports team and 4% at a larger school. </p>

<p>As long as the sports operate at a level of expectation similar to a club sport (the way Div III was supposed to work), then I basically agree with you. However, when a small school crosses the line into actually taking the sports team seriously, recruiting, segregating sports teams from the rest of campus, etc., they are in dangerous territory with those percentages. </p>

<p>The issue is not whether sports are good or not. The issues relate to the impact of some some sports team cultures on campus life, the impact on admissions, and the impact of total campus EC hours allocated to sports.</p>

<p>Let me give an example. How does ice hockey add value to the Williams College experience? It is no longer a regional school, drawing exclusively from hockey country. I dare sare that the average Williams College applicant has never shot a puck. So, to field a team, Williams has to specifically go out and find hockey players.</p>

<p>Has anyone every asked "why"? Done a "cost/benefit" analysis? Even given a moment's thought? Are they trying to attract more Canadians? More New England students? More of a rough-hewn brawling element to campus? Do hockey games attract sizeable crowds? Are they a positive campus event. Or is it just blind inertia from a bygone day when Williams was a regional school and hockey was New England's version of Little League?</p>

<p>When they added soccer, did they give any thought to replacing another sport? How 'bout when they added women's sports? Or, is the athletic department at these schools a one-way ratcheting mechanism, alway increasing in scope without review?</p>

19

<p>Welcome Twinmom! You've come at just the right time. We're just about to experience the ED/EA decisions and you'll be able to see what kids get accepted/deferred/rejected from their top choice schools. It's both thrilling and sad, depending on where students fall. But, you'll get a huge dose of admissions reality.
Next Friday (10th) is the decision release date for certain schools and the 15th for others. Are your twins planning to prep for the SATs?</p>

20

<p>They will likely do prep for the SATs; we live in a community where that seems to be the norm. Personally, I feel that being an avid reader is the best prep of all for the verbal component, and their HS honors math track has hopefully prepared them adequately. The new SAT seems to be a lot more straightforward than the old - no more quantitative comparisons and no more analogies. We'll know better once we see the PSAT scores, which should be out any day now. </p>

<p>I've started rereading some of the threads on the old boards, and it is truly eye-opening. Thanks for the heads up on the dates; I will be tuned in to see what the EA/ED decisions look like this year on CC.</p>