<p>If it'll help...a little more about my son:</p>
<p>Y'all have heard quite a bit about his interests and academics, but I just want to let you know that upon first meeting him, you'd think he's the most normal, average kid around. He's cute, athletic, and very funny, and he has these <em>really</em> twinkly eyes! A little story as an example:</p>
<p>When he was in sixth grade, at the end of the year they had this awards assembly. Being involved at high levels in Odyssey of the Mind and Future Problem Solvers and Continental Math, etc., he racked up a bunch of awards. Finally, after he sat down for the last time, a friend turned to him and said incredulously, "________!! I didn't know you were SMART!?!?!?! </p>
<p>He fits in with ANYONE. He has friends of all kinds...jocks, debaters, brainiacs, and artsy types. </p>
<p>The only reservation I have re: college life is that he doesn't drink or "party", and I think he'll have a LOT more exposure to that than he does here because none of his local friends do those sorts of things either. I can't see him at all as a frat type, but who knows?</p>
<p>But, he goes out all the time and has fun, but good, innocent fun! </p>
<p>Don't worry - the less innocent FUN comes sooner or later. ;)</p>
<p>Perhaps I'm prejudiced, and I really don't know much about Duke, but wouldn't one more usually associate "drink, party, frat" (and good academics) with Duke rather than JHU?</p>
<p>Berurah: Congrats - what a wonderful problem to have. I agree with Blossom that half baked anecdotes should be taken for what they're worth, but I'll throw one into the mix since you seem to be interested in hearing them as a part (however small it may be) of your decision making process. Friend's D went to JHU and transferred after her freshman year. She found the cut-throat, competitive environment in the sciences to be particularly unpleasant. Different strokes for different folks; maybe your son would thrive in that environment, and maybe that wouldn't even be his take on the environment. The straw that broke the camel's back for this student, however, related to the wonderful research opportunities, and a particularly bad experience she had. I have to confess that I don't remember a lot of the details, but the gist of it was that she had some fabulous research opportunity (I couldn't even begin to understand the topic when her M explained it to me), but, at the end of the day, the professor published (or did something comparable) and failed to acknowledge her - very substantial - work in any way, shape or form. She felt used, abused, etc. Obviously, an unfortunate situation like that can happen at any school; JHU has no monopoly on jerks. I throw it out because, when visiting, you might want to keep that in the back of your mind when asking questions of students, etc. Best wishes - there are no "wrong" answers when it comes to choosing between 2 such terrific schools.</p>
<p>berurah,
gosh... truthfully, i don't know what a "normal" college life is - it seems like so many people each define it differently. what sort of college would have a "normal" college life? i've visited (and sometimes stayed at) a number of other college campuses, witnessing fragments of my friends' lives there, and the conclusion i came to was that college life can be -so- drastically different across different college campuses. </p>
<p>i personally feel that the JHU community would be more integrated if only we had better housing. we get kicked off campus after two years of JHU housing (to even say "campus housing" is inaccurate, because some people can go to JHU for 4 years without technically living -on- the JHU campus - JHU owns 4 housing buildings off-campus, and 4 housing buildings on-campus; and they require you to stay in JHU housing for 2 years). we don't really have a choice as to whether we want to continue with JHU housing as upperclassmen, because JHU housing has no space for upperclassmen. JHU has repeatedly said it will come up with more housing for its students - it said that about 10 years ago, and Homewood apartments (one of its off-campus housing buildings) was meant to help alleviate those problems - but then JHU just increased its intake of incoming students, so the problem was hardly solved in that sense. they've promised us a new housing complex that will house 600 more students - but there are about 2,000+ upperclassmen, so i don't see how that will help significantly, actually.
i believe the school when they say they're doing something about security; i just wish they had done this earlier. visited upenn and columbia, which used to be in similar security-situations - but their general atmosphere now feels a lot more secure than JHU's (esp. upenn's). hopefully we'll get to that stage soon.
the campus is very pretty; it's full of trees and grass and brick buildings and is very park-like. today people were sunbathing on the lawns; i think people get so much happier when we have sunny days.<br>
i don't know whether i've answered your question properly, but you can ask me stuff again if you want to know more! i hope i didn't sound too negative when i talked about the housing situation...</p>
<p>Thanks for you input. See, if enough people talk about the cutthroat environment, then it becomes less and less <em>just</em> an anecdote and more and more a widely held opinion. That's what I wanted to know!</p>
<p>What year are you?? And as far as the off-campus housing is concerned, are the students just completely on their own at that point?? That would really limit campus life, wouldn't it? I guess upperclassmen probably try to congregate in the same apts. etc., huh? And how do YOU like JHU? What are you studying, and if you don't mind saying, what part of the country are you from?? Thanks!~berurah</p>
<p>Berurah,
If your son was going to a school in NJ, I woulda picked you up too!! I am have nothing against both Duke and JHU, great schools. JHU is the USs first research university and a great school. The scholarship also is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity as others have said. </p>
<p>But you DID ask for our observations so I said what I knew. I could be completely wrong as blossom so aptly said in her post.</p>
<p>Here in the DC area, JHU has a reputation for being in a rough part of Balto...but I wouldn't take that too seriously w/out a visit to get your own "feel" for the campus and its surrounding areas...Capitol Hill (in DC), where I work, has a rep for being dangerous, too...and it really isn't. Sure, you have to take some sensible precautions...don't walk alone (especially if you're a young woman!) after midnight on the further-out streets; lock your car doors, etc. But I feel perfectly safe there on a daily basis...I suspect that's closer to the truth about JHU, too...you just wouldn't have that many high-achieving kids there if it were truly a dangerous place...</p>
<p>Odyssey of the Mind! We're fated to join each other's cyber-families...OotM is a family-wide passion for us--in fact, S is currently hard at work w/his 5 team-mates getting ready for our State competition (we won Regions)...fingers crossed we go to Worlds (at U of Colorado this year) for our "swan song"...I've coached the team for 8 years, and do a ton of volunteer work at the adult level (region, state, nat'l and internat'l) ... so if your S is an Odyssey kid, he'll definitely feel at home w/us!</p>
<p>OK...I'm voting for JHU...but my self interest is obvious! And you're absolutely right--there's no wrong choice here, and the only "peril" is the sadness that will come at having to say "no, thank you" to one of the two!</p>
<p>Well, Duke has the 13% Carolina quota, and plus it has a bit of a "good ol' boy" touch to its admissions where it openly does give leeway to athletes (don't even ask about the gpa and average of the basketball team!) and development types. Yeah, Hopkins plays D-1 Lacrosse but the dumbest of those guys probably outshines a Duke basketball player, as lacrosse is typically a sport practiced in the upper socio-eco areas, a great prep school sport. And the rest of the sports is D-3, so not a lot of heavy recruiting there, though they do give leeway to athletes. I would say that there are ways to get through Duke that are not so rigorous given that there are kids there who are not way up there in academic stats, whereas at Hopkins, most of the majors are pretty danged tough. But I doubt if slackers and dimwits are going to get through the pre-med, sciences at either school. If you want to put it on a spectrum with tech schools at one end (MIT, CIT,) and party state schools on the other (Penn State, Arizona), I would put Duke closer to the party schools, and Hopkins to the tech schools but the two schools would be closer to each other than to either of those extremes. </p>
<p>And yes, many kids prefer to go off campus in Baltimore because you can save a lot of money that way--another plus for JHU. There is upper classmen housing through lottery, but cost wise getting a place off campus is just a lot cheaper. I feel a lot better that they caught that guy. I was pretty sure it had to be a local Charles Village person which is what made me nervous about him still being around. </p>
<p>The scholarship questions are very valid, and your son should talk to some science kids who are recipients, as the pace for the science majors is completely different from the S&BS and Humanities kids. And the number or % of kids who are dropped from the award for not attaining 3.9 should also be the science kids.</p>
<p>This is a pretty wise post, B. I don't know enough about the schools to really weigh in, especially without knowing what Duke will expect your family to pay, but if your S is seriously looking at med school, you need to keep in mind the entirety of his education (4 years undergrad, 6 years grad?) and ask how he's going to be able to afford it with five more wonderful kids to put through college. Plus, the scholarship sounds like a permanent "hook" for grad school, research opportunities and future employment. Wish I could be more helpful, but so excited for your S!</p>
<p>I know one student pretty well at one of these schools. He has yet to declare a major, but I know it will not be pre-med. Is it possible that he could become a dimwit slacker? How can you tell? What are the first symptoms?</p>
<p>I'm new to this forum, so please forgive me if I've missed something important. The impression I'm getting is that Duke is his dream school and he'd definitely go there if money were no object. I'm confused, though, about 2 points:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Is Duke's financial aid package final--i.e., do you know what kind of offers you are comparing?</p></li>
<li><p>This may be a stupid question, but what makes Duke his dream school? It's great to dream, but my kids' dreams at age 10 shouldn't necessarily dictate their adult choices. Since he's never even been to either school, does he really know what he's trying to compare?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I understand that money is tight, but visits to both schools seem the most important investment you can make at this point--one that could prevent a very costly mistake later on. Both Duke and JHU are excellent schools, but the campuses, the students, the overall "feel" are incredibly different. He might love Duke as much as he thinks he will--or not. No amount of research on other people's experiences can predict how your son will actually feel on either campus. It's ghastly to think that your family might make heroic sacrifices to send him to Duke if there's any chance that his childhood dreams might not fit with the reality of his experience there. </p>
<p>Again, other people's impressions are really useless at this point. For example, I know parents and kids who love the intellectual atmosphere at JHU and have never had a problem with crime there, but regard Duke as best suited to rich jocks and frat boys. But it doesn't matter what my friends or your friends or the good people on CC think--it matters what your son thinks. The only way for him to find out is to visit both schools, which (unless Duke comes through with a vastly better aid package than you seem to be anticipating) has got to cost many thousands of $ less than a single year's difference in tuition.</p>
<p>Good luck. It's a tough choice, but also an enviable one.</p>
<p><em>Duke is more a party school, reputedly
*JHU *does</em> have a sports aspect : D3 baseball
*Does (or could) the scholarship come with priority for housing?
*"Cut throat" should be investigated; I would want a supportive enviornment-- but cutthroat may mean "super brains are in class with me," which may be great...
*I know money is a concern. Between two schools this great, and considering that he'd be taking very demanding programs in either school, doesn't $20K take major work pressure off for your S? Might be hard to be at a party environment but have to go work the evening shift at the dining hall...</p>
<p>These are decisions only you can make. I am 99% of the time a "follow your dream" person. Then again, there's more than one aspect to "dream;" being honored with the keys to the kingdom at JHU did-- and should-- change the playing field. Like finding out the deeper level of a person you'd formerly judged by appearance. </p>
<p>It is so much easier for a kid to latch on to a "dream" in the NCAA final four. JHU may (or may not) correspond more to a man's dream. </p>
<p>After examining everything, go with the gut of which place will best launch the dream.</p>
<p>Sorry, Sokkermom, for the insensitive words. Reading a bit too much of the "Charlotte Simmons" (Do pick one up, Berurah, it is pretty much based on Duke, tongue in cheek). Just because someone does not have a major or has a major in something "light" does not make him a slacker in my eyes. A true slacker is specializes in major in the easiest possible subject regardless of interest, takes all of the "gut" courses he can and does as little as possible to get by. Many slackers are not dimwits, because it does take some work to plan this out. The dimwits are those in the school even though their academic abilities are way below the school standards because of some special talent the school really wants (usually sports, sometimes celebrity or development reasons) Most of those kids are directed to the courses that the slacker has to discover on his own, and they still need help via tutors, study sessions to get by. Actually a dimwit slacker would probably not make it through either school, but a dimwit would have a better chance at Duke than at Hopkins, in my book, and there are slackers at both schools, I am sure, but more at Duke just from the nature of the school. Kids do not tend to come to Hopkins to slack as its reputation preceded it.</p>
<p>First signs of a slacker--counting vacation days for each college to pick the one with the most, looking at the livejournal, xanga sites for the gut courses, majors and instructors, avoiding schools with any reputation for study, and eyes lighting up at any sense of a school being a party type of a school. Dimwit--well, that was a pretty insensitive term to use, but anyone being heavily courted by a school's athletic, PR or development offices despite stats waaay below the 25% threshhold in anything academic is probably going to be a dimwit by those schools' standards.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A true slacker is specializes in major in the easiest possible subject regardless of interest, takes all of the "gut" courses he can and does as little as possible to get by. Many slackers are not dimwits, because it does take some work to plan this out.
<p>I'm kind of wondering what made Duke his dream school. What are his perceptions and how would he describe what he thinks is there? Anyone who has read Charlotte Simmons, which is set at a very Duke-like school, knows that Charlotte went off believing she would find a lot of intellectuals and was shocked and horrified by the party atmosphere. Which is not to say the Duke is any more a party school than most top colleges, but it certainly is more so than JHU which seems to attract very serious, non social science minds.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that highly successful people in business were more likely to have been members of frats in college. Also realize that colleges have frats where the commonality of members is animal house behavior and others where the common traits are hard working, top grades and career focus. </p>
<p>The well rounded kid is more likely to be happy at Duke. Chances are that when your son gets away from home and meets a wide variety of people he will do some changing. Take it from a boarding school kid!! I'm not sure you want him to make it through 4 years of college without letting go and having a few drinks. Or learning the social skills a frat gives you. </p>
<p>This isn't Kansas, Dorothy!!! So in my opinion, it's not that there are more slackers at Duke, with what it takes to get in how could there be? There are just more well rounded people. A huge part of an education is to become more well rounded. Boarding school has done this for my peers in spades but most people first get out of their boxes in college.</p>
<p>Suze, there are more slackers and dimwits at Duke simply because of the athletic, development, and Carolina categories that Hopkins simply does not have. Lacrosse players tend to come from prep schools or other areas where the schools are pretty academic. Hopkins also has a "grind", "cut throat" rep that smart slackers avoid like Dracula does the cross. Because the basketball and other D-1 players do have to be somewhat accomodated, there have to be some classes at Duke that someone with their academic stats can handle cuz they are no good to the school if they don't make a certain grade threshhold. A smart slacker can follow that scent and draw up a roadmap for his major that way. How do I know? The males in my family tend to me smart slackers.</p>
<p>If at all possible he needs to visit, and get in touch with as many students as possible, not just a wine and dine schmoozing as some accepted honor student events can be.</p>
<p>Pre-meds everywhere, even at the most hand-holding LAC are competitive, it comes with the territory - as one very wise, experienced academic MD said to me once - "Nobody wants their doctor to be a slacker!". Very few people, no matter how true their vocation or desire to be a physician may be, can get through the rigors of pre-med without developing some degree of academic competitiveness. But, then again, Berurah's son didn't win that scholarship offer by being a slacker, either ;).</p>
<p>Honestly, I've heard some bad things about pre-med at JHU, and Duke is no walk in the park either. As I told my DD - if you want to be a doctor, and that is exactly what you want to be, go to the flagship state university, and be the biggest fish you can in that pond (she didn't listen to me, but then again her interest in medicine is not a vocation, which is what I'm talking about). Berurah's son is different, with different talents and aspirations, and JHU might be just the right opportunity, but only he can make that decision - he needs "on the ground intel".</p>
<p>Hahaha, ya'll posted while I was writing, I didn't know definitions of slackers were needed! I knew a few slackers in med school, some made good docs, for the others, well, unfortunately C does still equal MD! I'm encouraging my DD to be a slacker pre-med - As in organic, but major in underwater basket weaving.</p>