Two Wrongs Do Not Make A Right

College Confidential Community
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<p>The issue of socio-economic background and affirmative action in college admissions has been beaten to death recently, both on College Confidential and in the news. I am an opponent of basing college admissions on anything other than talent and ability. Many people support Affirmative Action because of the terrible opression African Americans and Hispanics have faced in this country, and in order to answer this I must resort to an old saying:</p>

<p>Two wrongs do not make a right. No matter what opression minorities have faced, favoring one race over another is inherently wrong. Having different standards for different races is absolutely absurd, and in my opinion unconstitutional. (hypothetically) If you're asian, a 2400 likely won't cut it. If you're white, you need at least a 2350. Black, a 2100 is often good enough; the statistics are absurd. In every other country in the world, college admissions is blind to race: the best and the brightest get in. Top universities such as Harvard are no better than eugenists right now: rejecting better students in favor of race and socio-economic back grounds. 12.5% of Americans live in poverty, while according to the Dean of Admission of Harvard, 24% of the class as economically disadvantaged. 33% of Americans are minorities, while 40% of Harvard's class consists of minorities. </p>

<p>Yes, I understand black/hispanics are disadvantaged economically, and often have more difficult lives, however using a form of racism to some how let these students onto campus is absurd. If colleges made it easier for whites to get in than others, there would be riots. How is that different from making it easier for blacks to get in?</p>

<p>The next argument is this: if colleges didn't use affirmative action, 99% of the top schools would be rich white/asian kids, because poor/black/hispanic kids can't afford SAT prep, and don't have the same opportunities as rich kids.</p>

<p>These next few statements might cause some people to become angry.
I for one would argue that an Asian with a 2350 on his SAT and a 4.0 in his class at a top boarding school is a better applicant for Harvard than an African American with a 2050 and a 3.7 from a tough part of Philly (all other things being equal, hypothetically), however often it is the later that is admitted. I think that colleges in general have fallen away from the true purpose of a University; they feel they should sacrifice academics to be "bastions of diversity". There is a socio economic problem for many blacks and hispanics, but it is not Harvard's (and other top college's) place to push away top students in order to lift up an entire ethnic group.</p>

<p>Let the African American with a 3.7 and a 2050 go to another great school, one that fits his level of Academic achievement. Everyone quotes the recent study where the results were that it doesn't matter where you go, because if you're smart enough, you'll still do the same in life. Let the hispanics/underprivaleged children attend a great state school where his/her stats fit. The black and hispanic communities have a problem: in general, they are poorer, and do worse in school than their white/asian counter parts. </p>

<p>People say Affirmative Action is simply a stop gap until minorities catch up in terms of college admission, but until the communities raise their economic level the children of the minorities will never perform as well as their white and asian counterparts. THE CULTURE OF THE BLACK/HISPANIC COMMUNITIES NEED TO CHANGE. Unfortunately, (this is in general people: i know many people are not like this) many young blacks are involved in the drug/drinking/gang culture; they have no support in school, ect ect. MAny HIspanics have difficulty in school because they cannot speak english (generalization) .Affirmative action will never change this, and no legislation will ever change this; the people themselves need to drag themselves up by their bootstrapts and achieve economic equality, and only then there will be equality. Until then, let the best students win: best academics, best extracurriculars, best qualities, instead of the faulty racist principles college deans pursue!</p>

<p>I am not someone "angry" because I was rejected from a college and feel that Affirmative Action kept me out, I am simply someone disgusted by this every day racism racism which goes on every year during college admissions. No one doubts that blacks/hispanics were(and some could argue, are) wronged, which contributed to their present situation, however simply putting the top minorities into the best colleges will never change their situation.</p>

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<p>
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Unfortunately, (this is in general people: i know many people are not like this) many young blacks are involved in the drug/drinking/gang culture; they have no support in school, ect ect. MAny HIspanics have difficulty in school because they cannot speak english

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I do not think you understand the concept and the reasons behind affirmative action at all. It is not to "lift up an entire ethnic group", but rather to benefit the school itself. It is there to dispel such rampant and ignorant stereotypes such as the ones you made above.</p>

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<p>benefit the school itself illegaly, unfortunately. As for what i wrote above, it is a fact that there are large problems within the Hispanic/Black communities, and I do not think anyone can dispute that. It is easy to call someone racist for stating facts, however in an argument, that is not always wise. </p>

<p>The schools want diversity, even if they are willing to use racism to get it. That is possibly ironic.</p>

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<p>"I for one would argue that an Asian with a 2350 on his SAT and a 4.0 in his class at a top boarding school is a better applicant for Harvard than an African American with a 2050 and a 3.7 from a tough part of Philly (all other things being equal, hypothetically), however often it is the later that is admitted. I think that colleges in general have fallen away from the true purpose of a University; they feel they should sacrifice academics to be "bastions of diversity". There is a socio economic problem for many blacks and hispanics, but it is not Harvard's (and other top college's) place to push away top students in order to lift up an entire ethnic group."</p>

<p>I would say you are mistaken. Any kid who is raised with the encouragement and nurturing of rich family with a top boarding school education can get good SAT scores and grades. But it really shows unique motivation, commitment, and effort for a poor kid from a race that is constantly put down in a school that sucks major a$$ to outperform his peers and do well on standardized tests. That is the quality that colleges are looking for. Colleges aren't admitting stupid kids in the name of diversity. Colleges are admitting kids who have done extremely well despite their circumstances, thereby showing intelligence, motivation, self-discipline, and basically every quality of a successful college student who will take advantage of what the college has to offer. A rich prep school kid doesnt have to work hard or provide his own motivation--that's what his family, money, and top education provide. I'm being dead honest (and I'm not even thinking about promoting diversity) when I say that I'd take a 2100 black kid from Philly over the 2300 Asian kid from Exeter. A truly motivated and high-achieving student who has refused to conform to the expectations of his community is worth a lot more to me than a kid who's just the product of his nurturing surroundings.</p>

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<p>it worse to be a poor asian person cause you get screwed.</p>

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<p>
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A truly motivated and high-achieving student who has refused to conform to the expectations of his community is worth a lot more to me than a kid who's just the product of his nurturing surroundings.

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<p>Okay. That's admirable. But how is it fair, then, to condemn the kids who have conformed to the higher expectations of his more nurturing community? Hell, if that's the way it goes, I'll go move to the ghettos and excel there.</p>

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<p>"These next few statements might cause some people to become angry."</p>

<p>No. At least in my case, they make me feel relieved that someone here on CC has my attitude toward AA. A lot of people, especially in the parents forum, are so pro-AA it is sickening. I vehemently oppose AA and I completely agree that using racism to combat past racism isn’t the answer. </p>

<p>As for your attitude toward rich kid with super-stats vs. poor ghetto kid with decent stats, I kind of agree with that. There is an obvious difference between going to a prep school and going to a crappy school in the ghetto. Nonetheless, I still don't think it is entirely fair to hold a rich's kids wealth against him/her. He/she had no control over being born into a wealthy family, just like the ghetto kid had no control over being born in the ghetto. What are rich kids supposed to do, live in a box when college admissions time rolls around and say "look at me, I’m poor and disadvantaged."? Maybe if a ghetto kid has the same or very similar stats and EC's as a rich, prep-school kid, I'd take the ghetto kid. However, if it was like the prep-school kid in your example with a 2350 and 4.0 vs. the ghetto kid with the 2050 and the 3.7, I would take the prep-school kid.</p>

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<p>I'm glad you aren't running admissions then.</p>

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<p>Sorry, that's how it rolls. If you haven't done anything that goes above and beyond your situation, then you aren't good enough. It's not a very big accomplishment for a rich well-educated nurtured kid to get a good SAT score or write a good application. It IS, however, a big accomplishment for a kid whose parents and classmates aren't college-educated or college-bound. </p>

<p>The rich kid better take advantage of his opportunities--take a look at all the kids on CC who have done SO well with the blessings they've been given (kids at great schools who have gone above and beyond by winning Intel, working exceptionally hard to get into research internships and summer programs, mastering an instrument, making a profound difference in the community, etc.) Those are privileged kids who aren't content to rest on their privileges--they are constantly driven to aim higher. I'm just not as compelled by a student who gets a high SAT score, gets elected to leadership positions, and gets good grades, and for some reason believes he has worked exceptionally hard and "Deserves" even more. Anyone can do those things given privilege.</p>

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<p>"I'm glad you aren't running admissions then."</p>

<p>Based on that statement, I'm glad you're not running it either.</p>

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<p>This is based upon the assumption that the kid from Exeter is wealthy. If you have a middle-class student who applies to Exeter because s\he desires to take his\her education to the next level and to truly go beyond what is "normal" in life, what would you say? </p>

<p>What would you say to a person who has placed himself in the way of opportunity? This person does not come from a particularly "blessed" background; he has decided, by his own will, to truly become something greater. Would you say to a person who works exceptionally hard, gets the opportunities, and takes advantages of them?</p>

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<p>"It's not a very big accomplishment for a rich well-educated nurtured kid to get a good SAT score or write a good application."</p>

<p>IMO, it is a good accomplishment for ANYONE to get a good SAT score or write a good application. So what you're saying is that a high SAT and GPA is nullified because a kid is rich or attends a prep school. I think Taggart said it the best. Maybe all of us should live in the ghetto so we can all be even.</p>

<p>AA doesn't even consider the economic side of things. It is merely a racial thing. Mallomar, think of it this way:</p>

<p>What if it was an affluent black kid with a high SAT and high GPA vs. a poor Asian or white kid? Who would you pick then? I know that under our AA-tarnished system, the affluent black would be picked because he/she is a URM.</p>

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<p>Mallomarcookie you make excellent points, and I agree with you on one level, that it is quite an admirable achievement, to lift yourself up from poverty to such a high level, a 2100 and a 3.7 GPA (this is a hypothetical situation: obviously many blacks are not poor, just as many whites are poor). However one has to realize just level of student that person is: if any white person asked for chances on CC with the above stats, they would tell him to aim for great schools, but not ivies. </p>

<p>Colleges judge your entire life; how hard you've worked in school, outside of school, standardized tests, your parents' income, your race: they are private institutions, they can do what they want, however they should not receive funds from the federal government inorder to preserve the current state of racial profiling. The real meat of the argument is this: colleges have never judged students on ACADEMIC POTENTIAL, and now certain groups are judged one that. That does not fly with me, or alot of people, and this is the ultimate argument which will bring Affirmative Action down: no matter how many people affirmative action helps, it hurts just as many. </p>

<p>I've heard a few people on CC quote Martin Luther King's idea that little white girls and boys could live in harmony, but until they are treated equal, that will never be true.</p>

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<p>I think you people don't fully understand the impact of race on achievement and education. I've had the opportunity to study this on a community level in my Southern state and it really can't be explained well in an internetpost. Suffice to say, history lingers in ways you can't even fathom as a privileged kid (I know I couldn't until I heard what really happened, firsthand, and how it affected the mindset and attitudes of colored people in the American school system in a way that is translated to future generations like our own).</p>

<p>I totally agree on the "poor white kid" count. But that's not really a debate...colleges are already (rightly) helping out poor kids of all races by giving them different consideration.</p>

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<p>Honestly, I don't understand why race is a factor in college admissions. Nearly everyone so far has linked minorities to being economically disadvantaged. What about the poor white kid from South Philly? I guess he didn't face the same challenges as the poor black kid.</p>

<p>AA needs to be adapted to being solely economic based. Does it show character when the black kid from the boarding school gets in with a 2100 over the white kid with the 2350? What "diverse" experiences does he bring to the table? Give me a break.</p>

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<p>It's easy for us to say "Psh lame old black people" and advocate economic considerations only. But to do so would ignore a LOT of lingering issues in education that you all are frankly ignorant of. If you really care about this issue, I encourage you to go out into your communities and talk to people who lived through the Civil Rights movement. Ask them what the school desegregation process meant to them and how it impacted their lives and educational experiences. You will be surprised to learn of the treatment African Americans received in schools even after Brown v. Board of Education. Once you actually engage your sense of historical integrity (because I'm sure you all have it--otherwise you wouldn't care about this issue) you will change your mind. You will realize that school desegregation did NOT mean equality of educational opportunity. You will realize why African Americans have not been performing up to par in schools. You will realize why so many have a distrust of the American educational system. It's not a cop-out on the part of a "lazy race." It's a reaction to a tangible, continuing history that you need to educate yourself about before you advocate policy changes.</p>

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<p>
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But that's not really a debate...colleges are already (rightly) helping out poor kids of all races by giving them different consideration.

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<p>Whether or not they are doing is not the question: it is whether it is just, and whether it is legal. </p>

<p>This is the biggest question for me: is it the role of colleges to help out black/latin kids? Do you guys really think colleges are doing this to solve society's problems, and the problems of the past???</p>

<p>Thinking about the role of a college in American life is difficult, however colleges are not out to help the poor my friend: they are out to help themselves. Colleges do not want 90% white/asian populations, they want diversity on their campuses, for whatever purpose. I think it would be naieve to think of colleges as good doers out to help solve America's injustices of the past. Diversity attracts applicants, and improves college's image, they are not trying to help the poor. I could be wrong of course, I am not on the board of any college. It seems to me colleges are using Affirmative Action for their own good, unconstitutionaly.</p>

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<p>"colleges are already (rightly) helping out poor kids of all races by giving them different consideration."</p>

<p>Not really. Can you honestly say that a poor white or Asain kid has the same access to programs like AA as poor blacks/hispanics? I'll even go as far as to say that blacks/hispanics with easier lives than other Asian+white students will be accepted over them merely because they are black or hispanic. How does this solve the problem of poverty? It doesn't.</p>

<p>"I think you people don't fully understand the impact of race on achievement and education. I've had the opportunity to study this on a community level in my Southern state and it really can't be explained well in an internetpost. Suffice to say, history lingers in ways you can't even fathom as a privileged kid"</p>

<p>What I do understand is that race has too much impact when it comes to college admissions. How should one's race even matter? Adcoms should be considering the individual, not the person's racial group. So if some Asian kid (we'll call him Tom Lee) is applying to a school, don't you think adcoms should be saying "Tom Lee the student" not "Tom Lee the Asian?" I know I do, but sadly our AA-infused system makes this race-blind admission impossible.</p>

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<p>I honestly don't think race, economics, legacies, etc. should play a part at all in the college front. Theoretically, the best method of choice would depend solely on merit. However, colleges aren't about to eff up their funding, and all that jazz. They'll still sell seats.</p>

<p>And don't get me wrong, I'd really admire the poor black kid (haha. wow. I think colleges have more of a lean toward Native American, though.) who struggled against so much adversity to achieve a 2100. I'd be more impressed, though, if he wowed the judges away with a 2300. Heck, I've been raised on stories of the poor Chinese kid who smuggled on board to the US and worked hard to get accepted into Harvard.</p>

<p>However, a lot of people over-romanticize that notion. I'm a northerner (Jersey), and no, I haven't ever been to the south. I just think that if colleges make us take these standardized tests and write college essays, they should keep to it instead of working this race aspect into the equation. If some black kid is passionate, let him be passionate -- he can outline his feel-sorry horrible experiences in the essay, and I wouldn't protest.</p>

<p>What I do protest is the automatic assumption that being black, native American, Mexican, whatever, equals unfathomable disadvantages. I'm sick of, personally, this black girl at my school constantly getting away with not doing assignments or handing in things for group projects. Her excuse is that she has no internet connection, and yet I know for a fact she spends hours of her time playing Warcraft.</p>

<p>No internet, my ass.</p>

<p>And haha. Diverse experiences. That entire notion's just full of crap. I've lived in 4 different countries, and I haven't yet discerned a single worthy aspect of how the people are different.</p>

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<p>Your'e getting confused. Colleges aren't promoting diversity or helping people out. They're looking for students who will sieze the day, take advantage of the college's resources, constantly push themselves, and basically be the best students. A poor kid who has outdone himself and gone beyond his community standards exemplifies these values and shows promise. He is less likely to take for granted what the college has to offer than the privileged kid.</p>