<p>Taurus 94 is spot on.</p>
<p>@collegechica I was surprised at the venom in your tone, when you ranked UChicago behind the Ivies, Duke, etc. So I took the liberty of looking at your past posts. This came from you right? In the thread, “What is going on? have people lost their minds?”?</p>
<p>“Why do people keep comparing cornell to schools like Berkeley, Michigan and Rice? We are an ivy league school. Our peers are Penn, Chicago, Duke, Columbia, Brown and Dartmouth. We are ranked in the top 20 schools in the world. We have some of the best hard sciences programs in the ivy league. We are not a state school! Give us the credit we deserve. With the opening of the new york campus Cornell will begin to rise to its rightful spot in the rankings, the top 10. Just wait for it. We’ll see how many of you compare us to rice and emory after a few years!”</p>
<p>Cornell is a good school. My dad attended Cornell, and he’s one of the brightest people I know. He never cared about the prestige of his school, just the experience he took back with him. He knew that it wasn’t the school’s name that truly mattered, but the education one receives and the success one has after attending the college. He had no such insecurity about going to Cornell. Why? Because he’s successful now. It’s people who fuss incessantly about Cornell’s name who cheapen the school’s brand. Stop being insecure, I respect Cornell.</p>
<p>I also don’t understand why you’re so hateful of UChicago’s “yield protection”. You think because the people who got in had lower stats, they were less accomplished than those who had better stats? Let me tell you something. In high school, I had a very clear choice. I could pursue a specific interest, or lose critical time in sacrifice for better grades, better scores. And compared to some of my competitors, I started this interest late. I was years and years behind my counterparts. Nonetheless I chose to develop this one strength, and developed it well. I became very good at it and won numerous, highly prestigious accolades, none of which I will name for fear of identification. However, certain grades suffered. I studied for SATs two days before the test. Was it worth it? </p>
<p>I’d say it was damn well worth it. I got into UChicago doing what I loved to do. I’m not the only person who I know in the Class of 2016 who is very specified. Most people who were accepted have a specific interest as well. They aren’t as well-rounded as HYP students, but looking at the incredible amount of passion they have, I think that they will succeed in their fields.</p>
<p>I think my grades could have certainly been higher had I spent more time and effort. They were far from abysmal, but they weren’t spectacular either. But there are only 24 hours in a day. My only regret is that I hadn’t known about this interest earlier, when I was in elementary or middle school. </p>
<p>So please, stop acting condescendingly and presumptuously. I can’t speak on behalf for the rest of my peers, but what you say is offensive. I think I got in through my own merit, my hard work, and you don’t need to downplay what I did to get to this university.</p>
<p>Honestly, you are comparing Chicago to HYP again? Nice try 
Also, where else were you admitted? Let me guess. Emory and WashU right?</p>
<p>Excuse me? I compared people who I knew of who got in and what these schools say they are looking for. And “again”? I never did it until now. I compared the students from my school–they are more well-rounded. Is that a problem for you? Must I include every other school in the same tier or of other tiers? If I said that Cornell students had lower SATs than those of HYP, does that mean I think that they are in the same league? If I cite differences between the two for student bodies, does that mean they are in the same tier? In what way my comparison of UChicago students and HYP students denote any form of UChicago being a better school than Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. What’s wrong with my comparison? Please. Enlighten me with your genius. It was a flippant observation, with no implicit meaning. </p>
<p>As a matter of fact, I got into UChicago early with flying colors. Got a nice scholarship as well. I didn’t apply to Emory, WashU, or Cornell. I actually didn’t apply anywhere else but Yale, which I didn’t get into. And that’s not an issue for me. </p>
<p>Stop having an inferiority complex. Stop obsessing over rankings. Relax.</p>
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<p>Interesting–I get the opposite impression. That the heart is saying Midd and the brain is saying UChicago.</p>
<p>Collegechica-You are being way too biased. Clearly from your past posts, you’ve had an inferiority complex and are trying to exaggerate Cornell’s reputation. Those groups you listed earlier? I’m not saying that Cornell is a bad school. But it is certainly NOT in Columbia’s tier. And why is Chicago so insultingly low? Chicago is most definitely at Columbia’s level. While no one is saying that Chicago is the #1 best school in the country, it is a fantastic, elite school. Your degradation of Chicago is so insulting and rude. You just ■■■■■ Chicago or glorify Cornell is almost all of your posts. And why do you keep criticizing Chicago’s yield? So what it increased 7%? Why do you have to be so skeptical about Chicago’s “tactics”? Yield protection is so hard to predict that schools at this level will barely use it. Don’t just accuse a school of using yield protection. Just accept things.</p>
<p>I personally ask you to stop trolling Chicago. Go to the Cornell forum and foster good discussions. But you don’t have to come to Chicago forums and criticize the University of Chicago. Things like “Cornell is a far better school than Chicago. Get over yourselves you idiots.” and “I guess I’m just so frustrated with Cornell repeatedly being called the worst ivy that I really needed to vent.” s</p>
<p>show that you are seeking no purpose except to put Chicago down and inflate Cornell’s reputation. Just back off.</p>
<p>My son went to Cornell and he is doing great. I wish Cornell was had a lot more respect. But the truth is that Cornell is not as wonderful as you make it out to be in your posts. And Chicago IS in fact one of the elite schools of the country. What’s the problem? Did you get rejected at Chicago or something?</p>
<p>Ugh. I hate participating in threads with the sort of immature discussion this one has attracted. It’s fine for high school students to sit around talking about which college is cutest, like comparing boys in boy bands, but it has nothing to do with the real world.</p>
<p>taurus, understand that I am a parent, not a peer. What you get from me is a parent’s view. My experience of Chicago comes from talking to my kids (both or whom graduated from there in the past few years) and their friends, as well as to other parents, to faculty members, and to friends of mine who went there awhile ago. </p>
<p>I also have to admit that I know a lot less about Middlebury – my kids didn’t even consider it, they were so turned off by places like Williams and Dartmouth – and I only know a few people who went there, one of whom was a girl I dated in high school who could well be a grandmother now. It was never even on my radar screen when I applied to college. As I have aged, I have had to change my attitude with respect to some surprising changes in the world, and that includes things like tattoos, texting, gay marriage, and thinking of Middlebury as a first-rate college. (Chicago, by contrast, was ALWAYS a first-rate college. Not a popular one all the time, but always in the front rank on educational quality.)</p>
<p>Anyway, none of that matters. Middlebury and Chicago have different “feels”, but either one can work perfectly well, and either one is prestigious enough to help you in that regard, at least within the medical school/medicine sphere. It’s not much of a secret, but you don’t need cutting-edge scientific training to get into med school and to succeed there – you need a good basic background, a chance to show dedication, and a reliable seal of approval, and Middlebury can give you all of that.</p>
<p>I have a sense that you are thinking about this somewhat in high school terms, though. You have liked your intimate high school, and you are trying to replicate it in college. If that’s what you really want, by all means go to Middlebury. It WILL be more like an intimate prep school, because that’s kind of what it is. If you want different kinds of challenges, then go to Chicago. But don’t make yourself nuts about it, because you will be fine either way. Really, you will. Your life will be different in ways you can’t predict, but you will be you the whole time, and because of that the various possible futures probably converge down the road.</p>
<p>So just close your eyes, make a decision, and don’t look back. And enjoy what’s enjoyable about the choice you make. Chances are, at this time next year, you won’t believe how you ever could have considered making the other choice.</p>
<p>Specific info: Personal relationships with faculty at Chicago. One of my kids did not have much of that, or (honestly) want much of it. However, she was close (and remains so) to a couple of grad students in her department, one of whom TAed a course she took as a first-year and later served as the preceptor (student advisor) on her senior thesis. She had bad luck with thesis advisors – a sabbatical, a change in jobs, and the sudden chance to adopt a baby knocked out her first three choices, and she never warmed to the fourth. The other kid had a lot of personal relationships with faculty in his (somewhat smaller and friendlier) department. They used to have cookouts, and things like that. He worked with them on research projects, editing a journal, reviewing books.</p>
<p>I know from attending a college much like Chicago that you can definitely have the relationships you want with faculty, but that it takes both work and humility (you have to recognize that you don’t have much to offer in the relationship, but figure out how to offer something). At Middlebury, however, professors will understand that it’s part of their job to reach out to you.</p>
<p>One last thing. I am a total fan of research universities, but among the 20-somethings I know, the two that are coming closest to realizing their wildest dreams are both LAC students or graduates. On paper, they gave up a ton of academic quality, course depth, and network bandwidth to go where they went. But in terms of outcomes, things couldn’t be better. The choice they made would have been wrong for me, but it was 100% right for them.</p>
<p>Have noticed on this Chicago Forum an inordinate number of silly, uninformed comments from a Cornellian posting as “CollegeChica.” As has been noted by others, she has evinced an extraordinary level of insecurity about Cornells’ place in the academic hierarchy even on the Cornell Forum. Why is she specifically, and obsessivly, attacking Chicago? In a classic sociological sense she is suffering from status anxiety. </p>
<p>I am a 1989 U of C graduate. When I matriculated Chicago’s acceptance rate was, well, rather high. Many of the applicants self-selected. The reputation of Chicago as an intellectual hothouse was appealing to them. High acceptance rate or not, my classmates were an extraordinary, intelligent lot who uniformly got into the top graduate programs. I applied to Ph.D. programs at Chicago, Harvard, and Yale and was accepted to all, ultimately opting for that place in Cambridge. Though Chicago’s public profile was low, its reputation in academic circles was extraordinarliy high. My fellow grad students had diplomas from Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, Brown, Dartmouth. All held Chicago in a kind of intellectual awe, though they wondered at the strange beings who would attend a college where fun, reputedly, “went to die.” </p>
<p>Low and behold, all of these many years later, and Chicago’s public profile – its level of name recogniition – has finally caught up with its academic and professional reputation. Application levels have soared. Percentage of admissions has dropped. Its ranking has ascended, apace. But – and herein lies CollegeChica’s problem – though not a member of the Ivy League, many applicants and many assorted John and Jane Q. Publics are now treating Chicago as though it is indeed equal to an Ivy: the perceptions have shifted in the public sphere. Because CollegeChica sees the college “game” as a zero sum game, as Chicago has risen, Cornell must have fallen. The burnishing applied to the Chicago name she sees as being stolen from Cornell. She despises Chicago because its public rise seems to correlate in her mind with a status drop for Cornell. And she must fight it tooth and nail, in the face of ridicule and derision. If Chicago were not now eclipsing Cornell in the public mind, she would not be obsessively trolling the Chicago site to fight back the Chicago tide. Chicago is NOW often spoken of by applicants and their families as in the same category as the Ivies – this was not true when I was a Chicagoan, despite Chicago’s always sterling reputation in academic and professional circles. This causes extreme status anxiety for someone like CollegeChica whose own Ivy is not always accorded Ivy-level respect in the popular mind (at least on CC). This non-Ivy Chicago has garnered in some popular circles an Ivy-level of respect, whereas Cornell – an actual member of the athletic Ivy League – cannot always depend upon that status to maintain respect.</p>
<p>CollegeChica is fighting a desperate battle to turn back history, to prevent the inevitable change in fortunes that history must always produce. And, at least in terms of Chicago’s increased public profile, she is fighting a desperate, almost heroic, action to re-write that history; to protect a status that she seems to feel Chicago’s public ascendance threatens in some elemental way.</p>
<p>I am not wholly comfortable with the “new” Chicago, but I relish that it’s public profile is now keeping pace with its undisputed reputation in academic and professional circles.</p>
<p>CollegeChica, in point of fact both Chicago and Cornell are fantastic schools. Give this a rest.</p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford have a dismal showing in Nobel prizes since their faculty and students aren’t smart enough to win Nobel, unlike UChicago and Cambridge, which lead the world.</p>
<p>There’s no point in engaging people like collegechica in discussion. Ignore them and they will eventually go away.</p>
<p>That said, I feel the need to make up for the mistake of interpretation in my earlier post—although I’m still unsure as to why this decision is being made in June. </p>
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<p>Speaking as someone who thought a lot about the admissions process and has now gone through an actual year of school (and not as an advocate of the U of C), I really must recommend Chicago here. It’s understandable that you’re unsure, and there’s certainly no guarantee that you’ll get “that feeling,” let alone before you have to make a decision. Looking back on my own experience I had absolutely no idea what I wanted from college life when I was in high school (other than an intellectual environment and a few other basic factors). If I were to apply to schools today, my list and preferences would be completely different. Thankfully the U of C would still be my top choice, but there were several schools I applied to that had attracted me earlier on in the process and that I should have let go of when my interests began to change. Perhaps this is akin to your situation with LACs, but regardless the U of C is probably the best school in the country for emphasis on knowledge and education—even over Middlebury, Williams etc. The pre-professional element is still but a noticeable strain, and let’s be honest, you will find these types at Middlebury as well. </p>
<p>UChicago faculty do a really fantastic job of connecting with undergrads as a whole. If you read interviews with faculty members you’ll find that one of the consistent praises of Chicago is the student body. Faculty members love working with students who are eager to learn, so there’s a strong incentive for them to reach out to their students here in particular. In one of my lecture classes this past quarter, for instance, our professor got off-topic and started talking about teaching his core sequence and how much he enjoyed working with students who were constantly surprising him. This was coming from a long-time, “celebrity” member of the faculty. There are plenty of small classes to be had here if that’s what you’re looking for. And, as far as I know from my science friends, there are plenty of research opportunities out there as well.</p>
<p>In short, the U of C is definitely not a place you should only consider for grad school.</p>
<p>offbeat1,
I think the perspective of your reply is well-considered, but I’d dispute the notion that UChicago is actively looking for less well-rounded people (or that HYP are looking for people who are “better” in this regard). I think the U of C is looking for a different type of student, but more in the “life of the mind” sense than attraction and dedication to one specific area or field. </p>
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<p>This is a little too modest. You could easily remove JHS’s posts from the screen name and mistake them for being the advice of a highly knowledgeable upperclassman. Tonight, for example, when I “take a break” I will be heading up to Pilsen for tacos al pastor. ;)</p>
<p>Swingtime said:</p>
<p>“I applied to Ph.D. programs at Chicago, Harvard, and Yale and was accepted to all, ultimately opting for that place in Cambridge.”</p>
<p>Yeah, back in the day, UChicago was great for grad school applications (as it arguably still is today). How did law, medicine, and business work out for your peers, though?</p>
<p>UChicago’s excellence in preparation for PhD programs has pretty much never, ever been questioned. It’s UChicago’s strength everywhere else that needed strengthening (finances, professional school placement, etc.). That’s also turning around these days, it seems.</p>
<p>I want to add that one of the things I find most upsetting and ignorant on CC is the constant low level denigration of Cornell. Cornell is a world-class university – really a great institution – and it has been in that class for a century and a half. In its own way, it has a great history, one that doesn’t stretch back to the 17th or 18th Centuries, but which is a lot more relevant now. One can argue that the founding of Cornell, more so than the founding of Harvard or William & Mary, is the most important event in the history of American higher education. No one who cares about American universities ever forgets that.</p>
<p>Cornell sparked the great 19th Century wave of educational reform and innovation that resulted in the founding of, among others, Stanford, the University of Chicago, Vanderbilt, Johns Hopkins, and Carnegie-Mellon. Among its signal innovations were co-education of men and women, a focus on science education and on-campus scientific research, the idea that undergraduates should “major” in a specific field while receiving a broad liberal arts education as well, and last (but hardly least) demonstrating that it took a great deal of money to create and to maintain a vibrant university. Harvard and Yale are great today not because they have been continuously great institutions since their founding, but because they embraced the innovations Cornell pioneered and executed them successfully. </p>
<p>There is no better way to sound like a complete ignoramus than to dis Cornell in any meaningful way.</p>
<p>Chicago has a great reputation! As a safety school for Columbia and Cornell :)</p>
<p>regarding faculty-student interaction at U Chicago.</p>
<p>I will share what I heard from my son (going to be 4th year this fall). Take it as an anecdotal data since we did not run a large scale experiment on this.</p>
<p>He has NEVER had a problem connecting with faculty and getting ample attention from them. It started with his extraordinary relationship with a faculty who was a residential master at his dorm. He spend hours and hours every week till wee hours of the night. He said “talking to XXX course by itself was worth the half the tuition”. They read together. The faculty (in the humanites) critiqued his writing… </p>
<p>Then, every time he wanted to spend time with the faculty who taught his course, he had NO problem whatsoever. One faculty tutored him for an afternoon, and waved two course sequence requirement for an advanced course my son thought he could only audit since he did not take the prerequisite courses. He even mentioned that he wanted to spend half an hour with one faculty, but the faculty went on and on, and had to stay for an 1.5 hour and was late for his EC meeting. His papers frequently came back with comments longer than his original writing (no, it was not because his work was shoddy: he got A’s on these papers).</p>
<p>This summer, he is working as an RA with a faculty in a field the faculty is best known for, and is likely to be a second author of a paper that is likely to come out if.</p>
<p>All in all, everything I hear things like this, I say, the exorbitant tuition was well worth it.</p>
<p>Is this usual? Dunno. At least this was my son’s experience.</p>
<p>PS: can never understand the psyche of people who ■■■■■ forums of the universities they have nothing to do with with an explicit purpose of trashing these schools. Recently, there are several of them, I noticed. For instance, one from Duke, now this one from Cornell. What’s wrong with these people? Don’t they have real life to live? What twisted minds… It must be insecurity and inferiority complex. Very sad.</p>
<p>I think there was very little degradation of Cornell. Everyone was just trying to refute the degradation of Chicago.</p>
<p>And even now two posts above this, there is still some annoyance going on. Posts like those offer no discussion or insight. Posts like those are pointless. Let’s stop the trolling. I don’t think anyone is enjoying this. "Chicago has a great reputation! As a safety school for Columbia and Cornell " (post 33)</p>
<p>Seriously??? Stop asserting yourself on a forum you don’t belong in. It’s detracting from the original thread. Plus, it’s making Cornell look bad for applicants.</p>
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<p>This is a very good point. My S2 had a choice between two comparable schools for ED application. On CC, on a forum of one of the schools, there was SO MUCH defensiveness and badmouthing of its peer schools, that completely ruined it: Couldn’t see the point of going to a school full of such unpleasant and insecure people consumed by inferiority complex.</p>
<p>Perhaps, the people on that forum were NOT representative of the general student body, but well, when all things are equal, why take a chance. That school was promptly dropped from a list for serious consideration.</p>
<p>If people really want to bolster the image of their school, the best thing to do is to be cordial and open minded about their school and respectful of their peer schools. Badmouthing their competitors is the worst way to increase the positive image of their school. It was bad enough that the people were doing all that on THEIR OWN school’s forum. ■■■■■■■■ the forum of other schools with an explicit purpose of doing it REALLY paints a VERY negative picture of their school. So stop it for the sake of your beloved school. You are turning people off of your school, and driving people away.</p>
<p>As JHS wisely reminds us, Cornell has an extraordinary history and an extraordinary record of academic innovation. It is only on CC that Cornell is ludicrously, unfairly ridiculed, and it is only on CC that this obscene defensiveness about Cornell manifests itself not only on the UChicago Forum, BUT ALSO ON THE CORNELL FORUM. What a disservice to Cornell, done by its OWN STUDENTS, like collegechica.</p>
<p>You noted, I hope, that in my lengthy rejoinder to the girl I intimated that the insecurity about Cornell’s place in the academic hierarchy was hers, and possibly explained her offensive and defensive behaviors on CC. Never did I offer a Cornell reputational erosion as a fact. I noted – accurately – that Chicago’s public profile has so risen in recent years that there are high school students and parents who think of Chicago as an academic equivalent to the Ivys AS A GROUP. The public has lately come to perceive Chicago as a valid newcomer to the very top tier. That fact of Chicago’s increased public profile has, however, no bearing whatsoever on Cornell’s reputation, except in the mind of Cornellians who seem defensive about non-Ivy schools gaining Ivy-equivalent reputations in the public sphere. In their minds there cannot be room for Chicago in the pantheon of elite universities, because that room – in this twisted, anxious logic – comes at the expense of Cornell. No. It does not.</p>
<p>RE: professional school acceptances of Chicago '89. In all honesty, I don’t remember the med school or B-school destinations of my cohort. I didn’t, in fact, know one person going to B-school, but that says more about my social circle than it does about the class. I do remember that law school acceptances were respectable: NU, Chicago, Harvard…My memory is that classmates accepted to law school were going, as a whole, to very very strong schools.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your help!! I really appreciate it!
I really appreciate your input, JHS. It helps alot! A lot of my fears have definitely been quelled. Logically, it definitely seems like I should pick UofC. There’s still this small part of me that is reluctant to give up a LAC experience.</p>
<p>“One last thing. I am a total fan of research universities, but among the 20-somethings I know, the two that are coming closest to realizing their wildest dreams are both LAC students or graduates. On paper, they gave up a ton of academic quality, course depth, and network bandwidth to go where they went. But in terms of outcomes, things couldn’t be better. The choice they made would have been wrong for me, but it was 100% right for them.”</p>
<p>I’ve noticed that trend as well, through talking to teachers, parents, reading articles, etc…
I’m afraid if I choose this research university, I’ll miss out what I originally wanted at a college like Middlebury. </p>
<p>Also, JHS, why were your kids turned off by schools like Williams like Dartmouth?</p>
<p>This obsession some people have with putting down U Chicago quite frankly bewilders me…Anyway, I don’t have any experience with Middlebury whatsoever and am only an INCOMING freshman at U Chicago, but I faced a very similar dilemma to yours, having been accepted to U Chicago and two top LAC’s. So, even though I can’t claim to be an expert on either, I did A LOT of research and made sure to talk to as many people as possible when I visited those schools. Based on that, here is my take on the situation. </p>
<p>Since you seem so enamored with both colleges as they are now (though to me it appears like you’re set on Middlebury and are searching for a good reason to definitively let go of U Chicago), with all those new buildings to explore and people to meet, try to imagine what it will be like during the times you’ll need a break from the setting. When I visited one of my LACs as a prospective student, one of the complaints I heard was that it was easy to get tired of the small size and student body. Granted, you’re not likely to meet and become friends with all 2,507 students, but the environment can become suffocating all the same and you need to consider whether or not a camping trip will be enough of an escape or if you would much prefer access to a large urban center with thousands of other students that also happens to attract people from around the world. Here’s a quote from a student review about Middlebury in USNEWS:</p>
<p>“However, the environment is absolutely a double-edged sword. What may appear to be a gorgeous, vibrant refuge from the hustle and bustle of civilization in the fall and spring can also become vicious, bone-chilling loneliness during the five-month-long winter. Similarly, a small campus of approximately 2350 means faces are familiar and the community is intimate, but also means one has no chance from escaping from undesired company, or from the questions of a professor in class. Students from cities will not at all understand the feeling of sheer isolation until they visit”</p>
<p>The social environment of the college can exacerbate this sense of suffocation, and the fact that you perceived Middlebury as more of a jock/party school is something you need to take into consideration just as seriously as the academic aspects. Middlebury MAY be a perfect fit academically, and I’m saying this knowing that it is an outstanding academic institution, but if the prevalent social scene is not your cup of tea then you could very well be miserable and that will also have an effect on the academic experience. You need to ask yourself how hard you’re willing to work to carve your niche, which can be done at any school but will certainly be more of a challenge in some than others. </p>
<p>You also need to take into account the quality of the individual departments at each. If you were intending to go into, say, linguistics, then there would be a stronger case for Middlebury on the purely academic front because that is one of the fields the school is most known for. Your interests are English, Psychology and Pre-Med. I suggest, then, that you look up and compare the class sizes of these departments as well as the research opportunities both schools offer. Don’t let the labels of research university and LAC fool you, it could very well be that U Chicago has more research opportunities for Psychology majors despite the presence of graduate students and/or that the classes in the humanities are smaller and more intimate than those at Middlebury. Here’s a page that lists all the classes that were offered by the English department during the Spring quarter, with both potential and actual enrollment as well as the professors: </p>
<p>[University</a> of Chicago Time Schedules](<a href=“http://timeschedules.uchicago.edu/view.php?dept=ENGL&term=450]University”>University of Chicago Time Schedules)</p>
<p>What I’m guessing is the equivalent on Middlebury’s site, though figuring out the number of enrolled students is more difficult: <a href=“https://ssb.middlebury.edu/PNTR/saturn_midd.course_catalog_utlq.catalog_page_by_dept?p_term=201290&p_course_subj_code=ENAM[/url]”>https://ssb.middlebury.edu/PNTR/saturn_midd.course_catalog_utlq.catalog_page_by_dept?p_term=201290&p_course_subj_code=ENAM</a></p>
<p>On a slightly different note, I’m curious as to why you are making this decision now. Did you get off the wait list in one and given a lot of time to decide?</p>