UChicago Derangement Syndrome

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
81

@EliteCulture331 I see. Since you have done doctoral research in hard science and so now you have a board perspective in business, law, politics, humanities and other subjects outside of your field too. Bravo, your self centered vision is definitely astounding.

I am not even going to lecture you on the long illustrious history of Chicago School of finance and economics because I doubt you have the intellectual breath and curiosity to comprehend that.

For people with comprehension problem, I would like to repeat that U of C is no better than HYPS and ranking is subjective.

82

@85bears46 you are being very obstinate and not appropriately respectful of @EliteCulture331’s lofty status as a Princeton grad and engineering whiz. How dare you.

83

You’re going in for that inane game of “compare the prestige of the elite schools”, @EliteCulture331.

If you think prestige, brand, rankings or any such stuff matters to me, you haven’t been reading me very carefully, just as you clearly did not read @Cue7 carefully. I don’t believe you are even reading yourself carefully if you can say that your crack about Chicago grads not possibly believing their school is all that great, etc. doesn’t constitute a drive-by slam. You ought not to back away from the meaning of your words.

Being careful with words is the sign of a good education. And not being obsessed with what others think of you is a sign of character. Whereas identifying what is important and characteristic about a College or anything else is the best way to truly understand its nature (vide Aristotle). There can be a debate about the accuracy of the description, of course, but it is simply the attempt to describe which gets up the noses of the HYPS crowd.

One of the symptoms of UCDS is that the sufferers can only understand one monolithic measure of higher education - prestige. Any deviation from that standard produces epithets such as “booster” and “bubble” and much huffing and puffing of the sort you have been going in for - as if anything claimed for Chicago could only amount to a presumptuous attempt to displace a god-ordained pecking order in which HYPS eternally rule the roost. Doesn’t that game ever get boring to you?

84

One perspective from an outsider to this conversation.

Clearly UC belongs in the pantheon of elite schools. To argue otherwise or to try to slice the list of schools into ever narrower levels of prestige is silly. The only thing that occasionally bugs me about the UC forums is the insistence of some that Chicago is uniquely rigorous and intellectual, as if students at no other schools work hard or care about the life of the mind.

The “All you peasants who didn’t attend UC are too dense to understand our humor” stuff is an example of what I’m talking about.

85

Here is a tally of Nobel Prizes in hard sciences and Field Medals by university. It does not look like Chicago is out of the HYPS pack, (neither are MIT, Columbia, Caltech and UCBerkeley for that matter).

Physics: Harvard (34) Chicago (32), Princeton (27), Stanford (26), Yale (8)
Chemistry: Harvard (37), Chicago (18), Stanford (13), Yale (10), Princeton (9)
Physiology and Medicine : Harvard (41),), Stanford (16), Yale (14), Chicago (11),Princeton (4)
Fields Medal : Harvard (18), Princeton (15), Chicago (9), Stanford (8), Yale (5)

86

“The only thing that occasionally bugs me about the UC forums is the insistence of some that Chicago is uniquely rigorous and intellectual, as if students at no other schools work hard or care about the life of the mind.”

  • several regular posters argue to the contrary, and those who believe Life of the Mind is distinct (if not unique) about UChicago don't argue with the fact that there are plenty of rigorous courses and scholarly types elsewhere. The distinction is more aboutoverall intellectual environment or focus, not whether there are smart, hard-working or intellectual kids at other schools.

“The “All you peasants who didn’t attend UC are too dense to understand our humor” stuff is an example of what I’m talking about.”

  • Actually, it's more like "hello, you are missing the obvious" followed by patient explanations to bring any navel-gazers (who are usually but not always affiliated with HYPS) up to speed. It IS the UChicago thread after all - anyone who disagrees but can't articulate why is welcome to keep reading and/or go elsewhere. A few can't deal with how utterly offended they are, so they stick around to lecture everyone else. If they are met with more humor - well, as I said, it IS the UChicago thread . . . By the way, thank you for providing your perspective.
87

@Sue22 , no one says such stuff as “no other schools work hard or care about the life of the mind”. What we do say is that the ethos of the College of the University of Chicago especially stresses that life and attracts a certain kind of kid for that reason, which, along with the simple fact that other diversions and rewards were historically not many, meant there was a more undiluted version of it at Chicago. That has always been the character of the place, whether you loved it or deplored it and whether you think it is now changing. That even you in a mild way tend to see descriptions of that character as a provocation just confirms what I have been saying about the more virulent cases. And, yes, otherwise smart and no doubt normally humor-loving types with that affliction do tend to lose all their humor and all their wit when they visit the U of C site. You won’t deny, will you, that that was the fate of the lad from Princeton?

@ccdad99 , counting prizes is just one more comparative exercise. That may interest others, but it has nothing to do with the point I am making about Chicago’s undergraduate culture.

88

During World War 2, General Hap Arnold, Chief of Staff of US Army Air Force, described the mental disease “localitis” as regional commanders who saw their region as the only important battlefield and demanded all the resources diverted to their region. In many ways many of STEM friends and family have the same perspective. They see their specialty as the only area with cutting edge research. The other non-STEM fields do not matter.

Princeton does not have business school, law school, or medical school. Based on my own area, IF I have localitis, I will dismiss it as a relative small research university and not worthy of much respect. But I have the highest respect for Princeton. Just because the other school doesn’t have the latest research of your field doesn’t mean the school not deserving the highest respect from you. This is what a board perspective means.

89

@marlowe1 I take your point. Counting prizes was an effort in response to the statement that Chicago is a small research university compared to others

90

Counting prizes is important. Those prizes represent game-changing research. Where the research dominates, so flock the undergrads eventually.

What’s concerning about UChicago is that it’s the #4-ranked uni. in the world for overall Nobels (since 1901) but slips to #9 (behind HYPS) in the tallies since 2000 (source: Wikipedia). Currently it’s been doing fine in the area of economics but that’s about it. MIT, on the other hand, jumped from #6 overall to #2 since 2000 and is planted right behind H, and ahead of YPS.

University of Chicago might trail a bit on the current research prowess front in comparison with HYPS - and M especially. However, the spirit of inquiry on the undergraduate level is still pretty distinctive in comparison with the tippy-top schools (at least some of them). This was certainly the case back when the College was a third of its current size, was viewed as a mini-graduate program, and everyone was forced to take 150’s or higher for calc and start their economics major with 200 and 201 (don’t believe any of the principles courses we see in the College catalog today even existed at that time). Anyway it’s obvious, now that UChicago has reduced the Core requirements, grown the College to extraordinary numbers, bolstered its athletics and introduced Dollar Milkshakes on the Quad and Midnight Coffee in Harper, that it’s become a “kinder/gentler” sort of place than it used to be. Nevertheless, I know for a fact that my kid’s non-honors, non-STEM-track 1st year academic experience at UChicago was a lot more rigorous than what she could have taken at HYPS (M - different story). The pace is just faster, the expectations higher, the breadth and depth of subject areas ramped up, and the grading lower on average. Obviously one might have the option to challenge oneself elsewhere - the question is over basic requirements for the student body at large, and their attraction to such. You can’t really like that kind of environment unless you tend to be more intellectually curious in the first place.

91

While no one’s going to claim that New Haven is the center of the universe, for many people, the perception is behind the reality, which is that the city has improved dramatically in the past 10-15 years. Nowadays, it barely cracks the top 100 for crime in US cities (https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous), violent crime has dropped substantially (https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-marks-lowest-homicide-number-in-decades-12464084.php) and the area around campus has been transformed.

The area of science and technology where Yale is traditionally strongest - life sciences - is anchored by the School of Medicine and the Yale-New Haven Hospital system, which aren’t going anywhere. There are many researchers and entrepreneurial ventures, and New Haven is close enough to New York that it’s possible for people to spend time in both places. Frankly, from that standpoint, Yale’s in a more attractive location than many universities with leading science and engineering programs. If at some point there’s a comprehensive transportation infrastructure upgrade, the relative distance could shrink greatly - a high-speed train equivalent to what’s available in China, would reduce the trip to under half an hour. We can dream…

In the meantime, Yale remains the second-wealthiest university, has begun spending substantially to upgrade science and technology and has produced a science plan for the university that entails spending a great deal more (https://news.yale.edu/2018/06/14/new-university-report-recommends-science-priorities-decade-ahead). The latest multi-billion dollar capital campaign is about to kick off. Stay tuned…

92

@DeepBlue86 The fact that Yale’s medical school is its strongest STEM graduate school and yet still falls behind Penn, Columbia Medical Schools in most rankings just proves my point further. Yale is weaker than pretty much all the schools I’ve mentioned in my previous posts in STEM.

New Haven is one of the most dangerous cities in the United States: https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/americas-10-most-dangerous-cities/7/

Regardless of New Haven’s crime statistics, the city has about as much potential as Bridgeport, CT. Yale’s reputation among people in the STEM world is fading and never really was that impressive.

@85bears46 Actually I attended Princeton for undergrad and a different “HYPSM” for grad school. Yes both are considered superior to Chicago and distinctly more difficult to get into!

@ccdad99 @marlowe1 @JBStillFlying The majority of Columbia and UChicago’s Nobel Prizes came during the mid-20th century. If you look at the number of Nobel Prizes won by Columbia and UChicago since 2000 you’ll see that those two schools place 9th and 10th behind Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and Caltech.

Further, UChicago has graduated the 5th most Nobel Prizes after Harvard, Columbia, Berkeley, MIT. UChicago’s claim to having a lot of Nobel winners is based majorly in the faculty affiliates - a great deal of them short term faculty. There’s an ongoing joke in the academic world that a conservative leaning institution like UChicago is extremely liberal in defining what an Nobel Prize winning affiliate of the university actually is. Why am I not surprised that UChicago feels the need to inflate its Nobel numbers after reading the obscene Boosterism on this page?

**UChicago Inferiority Complex and UChicago Boosterism is very real and - sad.

@JBStillFlying I brought my alma mater into the picture because @85bears46 engaged in ad hominem attacks on my age and depth of experience in academia. Yes, I’m confident enough to conclude that my resume is far more glittery and prestigious than his own. He should grow up if he has an issue with that. I don’t really expect you to scrutinize @85bears46 arguments that carefully - it’s clear you’re in this simply to make UChicago look better.

Your posts simply demonstrate how insecure UChicago grads are about not being considered top tier. You don’t see this kind of stuff on the Columbia, Caltech or UPenn pages and IMO they’re better than UChicago.

As for relevant stats to what we are debating:

How about we look at the true testament of student quality at universities … Rhodes Scholarships:

  1. Harvard 347
  2. Yale 233
  3. Princeton 201
  4. Stanford 100+ ... Brown Dartmouth UChicago 50

Let me just reiterate what everyone in both academia and the informed public believes. UChicago is DEFINITELY not better than Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Columbia, MIT, UPenn, Caltech or Duke. UChicago loses talent to all of these schools because its faculty is no stronger, its history no more illustrious and reputation no more prestigious than any of the above schools.

UChicago is a great school - probably on par with Columbia and Caltech and definitely on par with Duke and UPenn.

93

Lord help us, a guy who can brag that “my resume is more glittery and prestigious than [yours]” asks 85bears to “grow up” and produces that old chestnut about “how insecure UChicago grads are” in order to strike the lofty attitude that he is “sad” at the whole terrible spectacle of the decline of poor second-rate U of C.

I am ready to conclude that whatever may be the virtues of a Princeton education, self-knowledge is not among them. Not to mention engagement with arguments more subtle than the recitation of numbers and the fetishizing of the prestige sweepstakes. I am tempted to say that that’s sad.

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@EliteCulture331 wrote:

The majority of Columbia and UChicago’s Nobel Prizes came during the mid-20th century. If you look at the number of Nobel Prizes won by Columbia and UChicago since 2000 you’ll see that those two schools place 9th and 10th behind Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and Caltech.

Here is a list not compiled by a UChicago source

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/top-10-universities-producing-nobel-prizewinners-2017

95

@marlowe1 Oy vey. Triggered much? Any secure person would be able to tell that my remark about the glittery resume was sarcastic. You seem to envy the (false) sense of validation Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford grads obtain. Perhaps it’s you who takes this HYPS reverence too seriously and personally. You can go to UChicago and still be considered whip smart ya know.

Further, you should do your due diligence and actually read the @JBStillFlying post that I replied to with the resume remark. She asked @85bears46 to bow down to my Princeton pedigree. I responded with a similarly sarcastic remark.

Your second paragraph makes me pity you deeply. Not only because it’s filled with inaccuracies – most of my arguments have been devoid of numbers, but additionally because you’ve just revealed your true bone of contention: you disdain the acclaimed status of Princeton et al. most likely out of sheer jealously for the incredible education such schools offer!

96

@EliteCulture331: You’re citing summary FBI figures from 2010, I’m citing detailed FBI figures from 2016. During that period, using the same methodology, New Haven’s violent crime rate fell by 40%, from 15.8 to 9.4 crimes per 1,000 people. For its size, New Haven ranks #92 among American cities for violent crime. As I said, perception hasn’t caught up with reality. I recommend a visit, if you haven’t been there recently. It’ll never be as placid as Princeton, but the upside is that you might be pleasantly surprised by the restaurant scene and nightlife.

If your point now is that Yale’s graduate schools rank lower in STEM fields, that’s somewhat different than the point you appeared to be trying to make earlier, when you said “Yale’s attractiveness derives mostly from its network, prestige and history”. I think most informed observers would agree that a statement as broad as that simply isn’t justified by the facts.

No school is tippy-top across the board; the two that come closest are Harvard and Stanford. Yale, the second-wealthiest university, is tippy-top in the humanities and arts, top-tier to tippy-top in the social sciences and top-25-to-30-or-so where it chooses to play in the sciences and engineering, depending on the discipline. This, among other reasons, is why Yale College gets 35,000 applicants a year, plenty of whom are top-tier STEM kids, and hands out 2,000 admits. Yield was 72% last year. From what I understand, Yale’s STEM graduates don’t have difficulty getting good jobs, in part because of all the other benefits of Yale and a Yale education. As for the location, Yale’s been in New Haven for 300 years and seems to be managing.

Could Yale raise its game in STEM? Sure. Does Yale understand this, are they already working on it and do they have the resources to move the needle? Also yes. Do they have to be at or near the top in any particular STEM field to remain one of the tippy-top choices for America’s high school students, many of whom are STEM-focused, given everything else the school has to offer? I don’t think so. If Columbia and Penn snag a few kids, also admitted to Yale, aiming to be pure researchers in some STEM field, so be it - there are plenty more behind them.

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@DeepBlue86 Okay but most of what you’re arguing is totally hypothetical. Columbia, UChicago, etc. are similarly upping their games. It’s very difficult to attract STEM talent especially engineering talent to an undesired geographic location - even if Yale University is the employer.

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@85bears46 Aw baby. You shout “UCDS!” and runaway just because you get over-powered with the facts? You should go start another thread that’s a safe space for UChicago boosters to inflate their school’s worth free of criticism.

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@ccdad99

Top 20 universities worldwide since 2000 for Nobel Prize winning affiliates:

  1. Harvard - 60
  2. MIT - 38
  3. Stanford - 36
  4. UC Berkeley - 36
  5. Yale - 30
  6. Princeton - 29
  7. Caltech - 26
  8. UChicago - 22
  9. Columbia - 20

Given, if we broke this same list down excluding economics, UChicago would be ranked much further down.

100

I am now ready to doubt that Mr. Elite has mastered basic reading and writing skills, though he has amply demonstrated that he has a generous command of hackneyed invective and an absolute certainty that ivy-envy lies at the basis of our mild objections to his misperceptions on the DIII sports thread. He took that occasion as a platform from which to launch a broad and unfocussed attack on what he imagined to be the upstart comparisons we Chicagoans were making against our betters. No such comparisons were being made at all, of course, except in the head of this fellow, who is not much of a reader.

Now, again, he wants to back away from his words. Could any sane reader of his remarks about his glittery resume discern that there was sarcasm supposedly buried inside there somewhere? Especially inasmuch as he said similar things at his post #79 and that his general demeanor on this board from the very first post has been that of puffed-up swaggering arrogance.

I will say that I sort of enjoy these slanging matches, at least for as long as the moderators let them continue. Take your shots, my boy!

Shallowness and prestige-mongering usually go hand in hand. On this board I judge people by the tone and content of what they say and leave the pop psychology to twits. On that basis, as someone mightier than me once put it, “You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting.”