UCs Consider Admitting More OOS to Boost Revenue

[MaMoose]

<p>Well, the data from UCI’s OIR list freshmen entering from 2000 to 2003 for their 4-year rate table, and entering from 1998-2001 for their 6-year rate table. None of the six UC campuses listed seem to be declining (UCSB bounces between 52-62%).</p>

<p>This isn’t to say that the UCs aren’t facing significant challenges… especially in the upcoming years.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>

Yeah, these aren’t nearly as high as UVA (~84%)…

</p>

<p>Just reinforces my income argument – UVa has less than 10% Pell Grantees, and offers phenomenal finaid so kids can afford to get out in 4.</p>

<p>

Berkeley and UCLA are two fabulous institutions but their primary mission is RESEARCH.

</p>

<p>And UMIch is NOT? </p>

<p>

The UCs just don’t offer a classic college experience like Michigan does.

</p>

<p>Huh? While Ann Arbor is a great college town, there ain’t much difference betweeen UMich and Cal (which are urban schools), unless you mean the fact that the Big House is a lot larger than Memorial Stadium (but it has a better view).</p>

[somemom]

<p>UVA did offer my DD some awesome aid and DH & I were all for her going there, but she made the right choice for her and is at Cal. I do feel like the Cal experience has been more of a “classic college” experience than UCI.</p>

<p>I don’t know if that is the attitude of the student in what I hear, but my Cal DD (who goes for all that school spirit stuff anyway and who is very involved) has had a really good experience (for a large public) thus far.</p>

<p>A big part of it is the commuter school thing at UCI and I will admit, too, in DDs science major it was hard to make friends when what seemed like 90% of her cohort were ESL It just felt more ‘ordinary’ and less ‘classic college’ but that also was affected I am sure by her attitude as she ended up at her financial safety.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@coureur

But if you are a highly-qualified CA resident, the person getting admitted ahead of you and bumping you to a lesser school better also be a highly-qualified CA resident. Being some rich OOS applicant who suddenly covets what Californians have spent many decades building and supporting should not get you a spot in line ahead of Californians.

</p>

<p>You miss the point. If California taxpayers, through their legislature, are no longer contributing enough to fully support the cost of educating an all-California student body at the top UCs, then said taxpayers have no cause for complaint if the UCs turn to admitting higher-revenue OOS students to close the financial gap. You can’t get something for nothing. If you want it, you’ll have to pay for it. Either that, or accept a sharp decline in quality at the top UCs—fewer classes, bigger classes, higher student-faculty ratios, more classes taught by grad students and adjuncts, less student-faculty interaction, etc.</p>

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

<p>

If you want it, you’ll have to pay for it.

But again, it doesn’t have to come from either taxes or OOS, it could also come from higher tuition. There have been several posters who stated they’d be willing to pay more themselves in the form of additional tuition to keep the quality at the UCs.</p>

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

<p>

I wouldn’t consider it now given the lack of diversity, huge classes, low 4 year graduation rates and lack of dorms.

I think the ‘low 4 year graduation rates’ is a red herring and not necessarily indicative of students being unable to get classes as some posters inmply.</p>

<p>UCLA (last time I checked) guarantees 3 years of on-campus housing and was shooting for that to be 4 years by 2010 which is pretty good for a public U. UCSD is at 2 years and last time I checked UCB was at 1 year. I didn’t check the others. Regraldess, it seems that most students would like to move out after 2 anyway. </p>

<p>Diversity - well, the campuses are diverse but it comes down to what it means to the individual and they should just state it without using the ‘diverse’ term. Is it that there are too many whites, not enough AfAms, too many Asians, not enough Hispanics, etc.? I expect for most students it becomes a personalized issue (if it’s an issue at all) where they’re probably looking for either more of the same category as themselves or for some people the opposite. Thie UCs racial diversity is a reflection of what happens when race isn’t an admission criteria.</p>

[hmom5]

<p>How much more do you think folks would pay? My CA friends already think the $25K cost including room and board is too much, and it’s certainly way more than the SUNY schools in my state and those in most states. Any more would be putting they very close to many privates.</p>

[Papa_Chicken]

<p>latest news blurb on proposed UC enrollment cutbacks…nothing terribly new
[New</a> University » System-Wide Reduction in UC Admissions](<a href=“http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=system-wide_reduction_in_uc174]New”>http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=system-wide_reduction_in_uc174)</p>

[UCLA_Band_Mom]

<p>Although this thread has been a lively discussion of the pros and cons of the UC’s admitting more out of state students as a way to balance the budget shortfall, the latest news says that that probably isn’t going to happen. Instead, it looks like the regents will push for enrollment cuts at the middle tier UC’s, coupled with increased transfers from community college.</p>

<p>[University</a> of California officials urge 6% cut in freshmen for fall - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ucfreshmen10-2009jan10,0,3862072.story]University”>6% CUT IN FRESHMEN AT UC IS URGED)</p>

<p>

University of California officials urge 6% cut in freshmen for fall
The 2,300-student reduction would not affect UCLA, UC Berkeley or UC Merced. The number of applicants denied their first-choice campus would rise, but transfer slots would increase.
By Larry Gordon
January 10, 2009
University of California officials on Friday proposed reducing freshman enrollment for next fall by 2,300 students, or about 6%, to cope with what they said is insufficient state funding.</p>

<p>Enrollment would not be cut at UCLA and UC Berkeley, the most popular campuses, and expansion would continue at UC Merced, the newest school, according to the plan that is to be reviewed by the UC regents next week. The other six undergraduate campuses would have some freshman reductions, while overall slots for transfer students would rise.</p>

<p>“I don’t like cutting out opportunities at all,” UC President Mark G. Yudof said in a telephone interview from his Oakland office. But given expected steep state budget cuts, he said he reluctantly recommended the actions to protect UC’s academic quality.</p>

<p>“These are very hard, difficult economic times. There will be sacrifices all around,” Yudof said, adding that he has worked in recent weeks to minimize the enrollment reductions.</p>

<p>UC leaders say the effect may be softened by a demographic shift, as the number of high school graduates starts to decline this year. However, other experts predict that the economic crisis will push more students to UC campuses and away from more expensive private schools. UC freshman applications are running about 3% higher than last year.</p>

<p>Yudof emphasized that students whose high school grades and test scores meet UC eligibility standards would not be completely shut out of the system, although more would be denied a spot at their first-choice campus. As a result, enough students are expected to turn down a UC campus they never really wanted and instead attend a non-UC school.</p>

<p>Under the proposal, the number of students who transfer as juniors to UC from community colleges would increase by about 500, or about 3%. Yudof said that during the economic downturn, “we need to keep open cost-effective paths to UC, such as the community college transfer route.” The rolls of graduate students would not change. </p>

<p>UC’s total enrollment is about 226,000, and the state has not kept up with enrollment growth, leaving the system short of state funding for about 11,000 students, officials contend. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger’s recent budget proposal again fails to provide enough money for growth and calls for significant cuts in other UC funding, they said. The state is facing a $41.6-billion deficit by mid-2010, and the governor has indicated that education is not exempt from sharing the burden of hard times.</p>

<p>On Friday, Yudof also proposed a salary freeze and an end to some bonuses for 285 top UC administrators, although case-by-case exemptions might be allowed. Among employees affected by the freeze would be Yudof himself, who was hired last year with a $591,084 base salary and $237,000 in supplemental pension payments and other benefits.</p>

<p>California’s other public university system, the 23 Cal State campuses, also announced a salary freeze Friday – affecting more than 125 top administrators – as well as cuts in travel expenses and hiring.</p>

<p>In November, Cal State took more dramatic action to limit enrollment than the UC plan. With earlier deadlines and some changes in entrance standards, Cal State seeks to cut its overall 450,000 student body by about 10,000 next fall.</p>

<p>UC regents have scheduled a telephone conference meeting Wednesday to debate and vote on the enrollment plan and pay freeze.</p>

<p>Later this year, they will have to decide on a tentative plan to raise basic fees 9.4%, or about $662, for most in-state undergraduates. That would bring the average UC bill to $8,670, not including housing, books and other expenses. Graduate and professional school fees would rise more steeply.</p>

<p>**Some regents have suggested boosting the number of out-of-state undergraduates as a way to raise revenue, since those students pay $20,000 more a year than state residents. On Friday, Yudof said he had no plans to seek such an **though he said that “nothing is off the table in these financially difficult times.”</p>

<p>UC student regent D’Artagnan Scorza said Friday that he wanted more data about how the freshman enrollment proposal might affect low-income, minority and rural students before deciding how to vote on it.</p>

<p>“I’m not happy at all about the idea of curtailing access, given the application increases this year,” said Scorza, a UCLA graduate student. Yet he said he is concerned that UC does not have enough money to support more students.</p>

<p>Patrick Callan, president of the San Jose-based National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, was skeptical of Yudof’s plan. Before cutting enrollment, UC should push research professors to teach more and should eliminate duplication systemwide in lightly enrolled graduate programs, he said.</p>

<p>Instead of considering those fundamental issues, UC and state officials always “put the pain on the students with tuition increases and enrollment reductions,” Callan said. </p>

<p>UC’s last attempt to reduce enrollment led to widespread confusion. Amid state budget problems in 2004, UC told about 5,800 eligible students in the spring that it could not admit them as freshmen but that they would be guaranteed transfers from community colleges when they were juniors. Then in the summer, the Legislature provided extra money to reverse that decision. By that point, many of those students had made other college plans.</p>

<p>In other budget news, California’s higher education systems were coping this week with a 90-day suspension in state financing for public works as a result of the state’s inability to sell the bonds it uses to keep cash flowing. </p>

<p>Cal State projects affected include a performing arts center at Cal State Northridge and a business administration building at Cal Poly Pomona, officials said.</p>

<p>UC is seeking an exemption from the financing freeze for its stalled projects, including engineering, humanities and arts facilities at UC Irvine. Community colleges are soldiering on with construction projects in the hope the state will reimburse them.

</p>

[dstark]

<p>“My CA friends already think the $25K cost including room and board is too much, and it’s certainly way more than the SUNY schools in my state and those in most states.”</p>

<p>Last I looked there wasn’t a shortage of applicants to the UCs. (Well …maybe not Merced and Riverside). If people think the price is too high, then these people should look elsewhere. There are plenty of schools.</p>

<p>Hey. If you are a Calif. family, you can send a kid oos to UW. It will cost you $40,000 more after four years, but whatever.</p>

<p>There are plenty of people that would like to go to a UC and plenty of parents that would be happy to see their kids at a UC.</p>

[dstark]

<p>[Bye-bye</a>, “Berzerkeley”: Surveys provide a peek at the real UC Berkeley students](<a href=“http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/02/19_survey.shtml]Bye-bye”>Bye-bye, "Berzerkeley": Surveys provide a peek at the real UC Berkeley students)</p>

<p>A little dated. But there are up to date surveys out there. </p>

<p>"But perhaps the most surprising area of responses, given the stereotype that Berkeley undergraduates often get lost at this huge, research-oriented university, was how UCUES respondents rated their overall satisfaction. More than three-quarters (83.4 percent) said they were “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with their academic experience, 82.6 percent were equally happy about their cultural and life experience, and 86.4 percent were satisfied or very satisfied with their overall UC experience.</p>

<p>And asked if they could make their college choices all over again, 85.9 percent agreed or strongly agreed that they would still pick Berkeley."</p>

[SlitheyTove]

<p>Paying $25k a year for a UC is still a bargain for full-pay families. I agree it’s horridly expensive for families who could garner merit aid elsewhere. </p>

<p>What’s a little scary about the cost for CA is that even Cal States can have a COA around $20k a year. SDSU and Cal Poly SLO are both up there. That’s probably a better comparison for the SUNYs. </p>

<p>U of Oregon is around $30k a year OOS, and with some merit aid it’s in striking range of the UC (transportation does get expensive, though).</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>NorCal news weighs in against OOS kids:</p>

<p>

To quote Yudof, the UC system is “leaving money on the table.” (Yudof also said that while he is “leaving all options on the table” as far as increasing revenues, “there is no plan” to increase out-of-state enrollment, and that he “couldn’t imagine a worse time to do it.”)</p>

<p>UC should resist adopting this strategy. One consideration is that it would be radioactive politically and could result in even less state funding for UC. But in our opinion that’s not even the most important consideration. … </p>

<p>The real reason UC should resist has to do with the university’s own integrity. The 1862 charter that established California’s state university system calls for each college to be as accessible as possible to the people of California - even to the point of having partial courses for “any resident of California, from the age of fourteen years or upwards, of approved moral character.” Clearly, the university has tweaked the requirements a little in the intervening decades, but it has also struggled mightily to keep courses open to as many Californians as possible. To abandon this principle now would mean an unfortunate reversal of the university’s mission.

</p>

<p>[California</a> must preserve its higher-ed mission](<a href=“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/11/INKH154IM2.DTL&type=printable]California”>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/11/INKH154IM2.DTL&type=printable)</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>^ With OOS tuition of $14,806 and a total COA of around $25K, the University of Minnesota is only a little more costly than the UCs for California residents, and it’s a better school than Santa Cruz, Riverside, or Merced—arguably even competitive with Santa Barbara, Davis, and Irvine. The weather may not be appealing to Californians, but many do end up there for graduate/professional school, and most seem to like it. IMO, it’s a better educational value than Oregon or the SUNYs.</p>

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

<p>

How much more do you think folks would pay? My CA friends already think the $25K cost including room and board is too much, and it’s certainly way more than the SUNY schools in my state and those in most states.

It’s hard to say since it’s such an individual response but it’ll come down to their means to pay, desire to pay, and what the alternatives are. If one would consider that the alternatives to UCB/UCLA/UCSD/etc. tend to be highly ranked expensive privates or just a handful of highly ranked state schools in other states, then the delta between paying an additional 1K or 2K per year for the UC (maintaining quality) vs. an additional 35K for a private or an additional xK for another state’s school, then the choice might be to raise the tuition.</p>

<p>If one thinks the COA is already too high, then they have some other options -

• Attend the nearest UC and commute. This is a real alternative for the vast majority of the population in California and lowers the cost considerably since housing is more expensive than tuition.
• Attend a CalState rather than a UC. The CalStates are less expensive and even more likely to be in on’e backyard.
• Attend a local CC for 2 years then transfer lowering the overll cost.</p>

<p>Although it’s ‘nice’ to live on-campus initially, it’s by no means a requirement if one has an alternative to live at home.</p>

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

<p>

the University of Minnesota is only a little more costly than the UCs

It’s 84 degrees outside right now. I wonder what it is in Minneapolis? Haha - you beat me to it with your statement on the weather. :)</p>

[somemom]

<p>UCB was offering 2 years on campus housing when my DD started, but the dorms are ridiculously over-priced, frequently twice living in Greek house or renting locally. Most kids don’t want to stay on campus when the housing is in the $15k arena.</p>

[vballmom]

<p>

How much more do you think folks would pay? My CA friends already think the $25K cost including room and board is too much, and it’s certainly way more than the SUNY schools in my state and those in most states.

</p>

<p>The cost of attendance at Cal Poly SLO, at $20K/year, is the bargain of the state as far as I’m concerned. When considering the alternatives, I’m thrilled that S1 will be heading there this fall.</p>

[hmom5]

<p>I totally love that area Vballmom, congrats to your son!</p>

[coureur]

<br>

@""

<blockquote>
<p>You miss the point… You can’t get something for nothing. If you want it, you’ll have to pay for it. Either that, or accept a sharp decline in quality at the top UCs<<</p>
</blockquote>

<br>

<p>I understand the point perfectly, but I do not accept the false dichotomy that the UCs must either sell-out to rich OOS people or drop in quality. How about they do a better job with money they already have – cut the losers in order to maintain or strengthen the winning programs?</p>

<br>

@""

<blockquote>
<p>Last I looked there wasn’t a shortage of applicants to the UCs. (Well …maybe not Merced and Riverside).<<</p>
</blockquote>

<br>

<p>Exactly my point.</p>