<p>The stories I hear are different than yours, Hmom5. The students I know are very happy at Berkeley and UCLA. </p>
<p>"I do think there are a number of factors, poor aid to the middle class and poor being the biggest one."</p>
<p>I don't get this at all. </p>
<p>Please name me some top schools that educate more students (in absolute numbers or percentages than Berkeley or UCLA).</p>
<p>Berkeley educates more poor people than the entire Ivy League. Picking on the UCs for the way they treat poor students is ridiculous. At least they educate poor students.</p>
<p>Also, I would like to know...what private schools aren't cutting back right now?</p>
<p>And this stuff about graduating in 4 years...why is that the metric? I graduated in 5 years. I had to work 30 to 40 hours a week the first 2 1/2 years of college. I'm sure there are a lot of students that have to do that in the top private schools too. ;)</p>
<p>I'm sure that the cheaper cost of the UCs allow for their students (and their parents) to fudge a little when it comes to graduation dates. Believe me, if I were paying close to $50K a year, the thought of an extra year would NOT be greeted with a ho-hum attitude!</p>
<p>One more reason why students find it hard to graduate in four years - getting the classes they need. When I was a TA in the Computer Science department at Berkeley long ago, savvy students who intended to be CS majors started registering for required classes in their freshman year. Part of the algorithm for awarding slots to these classes was how many times you had previously been rejected, so they were racking up rejections in order to get in later on. Less savvy students took extra time.</p>
<p>I know several current students at UC's and CSU's, and it doesn't sound like the difficulty of getting classes has changed very much. (This may depend on major.)</p>
<p>I think cost is also a huge factor in taking the slow route. While the tuition at these schools is quite low, room and board costs are high because of the cost of living in California. $8k sounds like a total bargain for Berkeley - but the real cost of attendance is $25k. Berkeley doesn't meet full need and plenty of families have trouble filling the gap.</p>
<p>I told my kids, if you go to a UC, you can take 5 years to graduate. If you go out of state or a private school, you better graduate in 4 years. I live 30 minutes from Berkeley. I know I wasn't the only one who said this. :)</p>
<p>Thanks Dstark, but I already have some great sites for socialist debates. The issue I'd love to shed some light on here is what the right thing to do is for the UCs moving forward is.</p>
<p>Of course there are no guarantees of admission to the top UCs. They are selective schools. Everyone understands that. But if you are a highly-qualified CA resident, the person getting admitted ahead of you and bumping you to a lesser school better also be a highly-qualified CA resident. Being some rich OOS applicant who suddenly covets what Californians have spent many decades building and supporting should not get you a spot in line ahead of Californians.</p>
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[QUOTE=""]
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<p>Merced won't close. It just takes a new UC some time to get momentum going.<<</p>
</blockquote>
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<p>Yeah, Riverside (founded 1954) and Santa Cruz (1964) have spent many decades trying to get momentum going. They are still in the UC cellar and ranked well behind even the mid-tier UCs much less the top. Do we really need another bottom tier UC in an undesirable location?</p>
<p>One DD is at Berkeley, a senior, truly undecided at entry, she did not declare until Fall of her junior year. She did do breadth classes designed to fit any math/science major and all her breadth courses checked off a box, but she was not sure which major. She studied abroad for one term, because she did not know if she could get enough courses at the abroad school to qualify for a needed unit (her major limited the # of abroad units which could be counted) and she found out this fall she could be done in December if she wanted. She has more to do for her grad track (premed- also just decided junior year) so she stayed, but she had no danger of needing more time and used none of her AP units to check any boxes. I think she skipped some classes via placement, like English req.</p>
<p>My other DD went to UCI, a science & humanities major. She was on track with a bit of summer school to graduate in her double major in 4 years. It was not easy and I would not recommend taking 16-19 units, she did not have enough fun, but it can be done.</p>
<p>My nephew did 2 years CC and transferred to a CSU paying his own way and took 8 years to get his degree because he worked full time. I wonder how many locals at UCs (like UCI commuters) take longer because they live at home and pay for their schooling and go part time?</p>
<p>The tuition for one DD went from $4000+ to $5000+ to $6000+ to $7000+ over her four years, but it is the living expenses in LA/OC/Bay area location that are a killer.</p>
<p>How about admitting OOS kids in higher numbers to NOT UCLA/Cal, but the mid and lower rated schools. Is UCSC or UCR still better than University of lousy state U that people complain about???</p>
<p>I think UCSC would be more highly ranked if not for the whole no grade thing that went on, they really got a rather "hippie" reputation in many areas. UCR is not so bad, but no one wants to live in Riverside, same with Merced......I guess Davis is lucky is triumphed over not being near the coast to make it into the mid range rankings!</p>
<p>Others will know better, but it's hard for me to believe OOS families will pay $40K for the schools below SD, though I know lots of kids who will beg their parents to pay for the SB party.</p>
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I wonder how many locals at UCs (like UCI commuters) take longer because they live at home and pay for their schooling and go part time?
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This is a good point. Most of the UCs have a fair number of commuter students and many of them take a reduced load so they don't have to go to class 5 days a week. This ends up extending their stay. Even more of the CalState students are in this category.</p>
<p>Don't forget that the UCs are extremely generous with AP/IB credits -- a 3+ earns full class credit.</p>
<p>IMO, the reason for the relatively low grad rate is ALL about income levels. By giving large tip factors in admissions to low income kids (Pell Grantees comprise ~33% of each campus), and poor financial aid to everyone, the vast majority of students MUST work to pay the bills. Thus, the logical conclusion for them is to take a minimum load, which automatically means five years.</p>
<p>An interesting UC experiment would be to boost finaid per year, but cap it at four years just like the privates.</p>
<p>My daughter decided to go to UM a couple of years ago despite getting into UCLA primarily because of the diversity there compared to UCLA. It was a tough decision for us - roughly $20K extra in tution - cost of living is cheaper there than UCB or UCLA by about $5k. D has no regrets and having been there a couple of times I must concur that it has worked out very well for her.</p>
<p>I think UM has been very clever in inviting OOS students to fund a significant part of their budget coupled with the recent fund raising drives. We have a lot of friends kids in UCB and UCLA who often have trouble getting into the classes that they desire. Seems to be much less of an issue at UM. </p>
<p>UM has approx 35% OOS - UCLA was 3% ! Berkeley and UCLA are two fabulous institutions but their primary mission is RESEARCH. If they get into financial difficulties their ability to attract world class profs. will be hurt. The UC regents need to figure out a balanced approach to solving this problem and UM has already run a very successful experiment for them to try.</p>
<p>Someone earlier in the thread had data that showed that OOS students were willing to pay the OOS fees for the top of the UCs but not for the mid or lower tier.</p>
<p>6-8% at UCLA and Berkeley; 3 % at UCI</p>
<p>Yes, no one is talking about the diversity issue, although it is an issue with incoming students.</p>
<p>The number of Hispanic or African-American students on many of the UC campuses can be small. In fact, one of the selling points of UC Riverside for many Hispanic minority students is there are more Hispanic students at UCR.</p>
<p>An excerpt (4 years old but I was told they've gone down(:</p>
<p>Graduation Rates at Other Universities. According to data published by the Consortium for
Student Retention Data and Exchange (CSRDE)1, UC Davis’ four and six-year graduation
rates (34% and 79%) are much better than the national average for CSRDE member public
institutions, which in 2001-02 were 28% and 54% respectively. UC Davis’ six-year rate
(79%) is also much better than the national average for private institutions, which was 61%
in 2001-02. According to the 2003 NCAA Division 1 Graduation-Rates report2, UC Davis
ranked ninth among AAU Public Universities</p>
<p>And from 2006:</p>
<p>UCSD's four-year graduation rate exceeds the majority of other public schools nationally, which graduate about half of its students in four years, according to SRI Director Bill Armstrong</p>
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<p>Others will know better, but it's hard for me to believe OOS families will pay $40K for the schools below SD....<<</p>
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<p>Why not? It's easy to forget just how highly ranked the UCs are. Even the mid-tier UCs are top-tier nationally. In USNews UCSD is #35, UCD is #44, UCI is #45, and UCSB is #46. The gap isn't that big between SD and the middle three. It's astonishing when you think about it - the UCs put six universities in the top 50. No other state school system has more than one.</p>
<p>And even more to the point, there are many expensive private colleges ranked a lot lower than #44-46 that cost even more than OOS UCs. And people are apparently willing to pay for them. So paying OOS for Davis, Irvine, and SB might still look like a pretty good deal.</p>
<p>It's sort of a catch 22. I'd perhaps consider paying that much, as I would for say Michigan, if they had 35% from OOS like Mich does and were better funded. I wouldn't consider it now given the lack of diversity, huge classes, low 4 year graduation rates and lack of dorms. What horrified me most visiting UCSB recently was the lack of dorms at this notorious party school. Looking at the student DUI arrests for one weekend was beyond horrifying.</p>
<p>The UCs just don't offer a classic college experience like Michigan does.</p>