<p>Thank you, aglages. I posted on a past thread that I was afraid of telling people where I was accepted (if/when that happens in the near future) because of the fear of being criticized. But you’ve really made me put things into perspective. I don’t much care how others perceive me anymore. People will say what they want to say and think what they want to think regardless. Being one of the few African American at a predominantly Caucasian school, I’m made aware of this idea on a daily basis (not a sob story, just a fact). Sure, call me a “free loader” or something of that nature. But I would be doing a disservice… to myself if I listened to those people. As much as you don’t like it, I firmly believe in Affirmative Action and will take FULL advantage of its benefits for African Americans, college, and beyond. I hope you… understand.</p>
<p>P.S</p>
<p>And I’m not disagreeing simply to disagree with you. If you had reasons that made sense to me, I’d be happy to agree with you. For now, I don’t see one.</p>
I’m Asian, and I didn’t even consider %'s for each demographic. I’m going to Carleton, and I just looked up it’s demographic breakdown.</p>
<p>Hmm… 7% Asian, not much higher than the 3-5% at UCLA or UCB. Of course Carleton is a much smaller school as well, so there are even less Asians than there are Blacks at those UC schools. Plus, I think “Asian” includes people from India as well, which most people don’t see the same as people from say, Japan, Taiwan, or Korea. Am I going to not go to Carleton because there aren’t enough Asian people? Nope, no I won’t.</p>
<p>Maybe she would have turned down Harvard and Stanford, maybe not. You cannot say that aglages, without knowing what scholarships she might have gotten and other things. Making hindsight judgments, is , once again, not logical. But as demonstrated by your posts in response to both ksarmand and I, you are allergic to logic.</p>
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<p>7% Asian. Certainly higher than the percentage of Asians in the US. The percentage of black students at Carleton. (3%)</p>
<p>And lets be honest, 3% is a whole lot of difference from 7%. Have you ever known what its like to be the only Asian in class? Maybe you have. Maybe you don’t mind. But I do. and just because have a different viewpoint than you doesn’t make mine any less relevant.</p>
<p>“Darn!!! If it just wasn’t for the diversity problem at the UCs your daughter would have turned down Harvard and Stanford for them. Sure.”</p>
<p>OK aglages. I thought I was being respectful when I posted earlier. You, however, are showing an incredible lack of sophistication and respect in many of your posts. Your implication that my daughter would never possibly choose UCLA or UCB over Harvard or Stanford is frankly ridiculous and completely discounts the merits of both of these colleges. As I wrote in my previous post, my D had been wearing a UCLA sweatshirt for years. Not a Harvard sweatshirt and not a Stanford sweatshirt. It took quite a lot to change her mind about the college: an unbelievably low rate of “diversity” + overcrowding + disgruntled students and professors all led her to apply to only three UCs (she would have applied to more) and led her to throw the dice and apply to some of the colleges that have the lowest acceptance rates in the nation (HYPSM).</p>
<p>If you only could read the “Why School XYZ?” essays that she had to write for many of the colleges she applied to you would see that her primary criteria in a college, other than our ability to pay of course and the appropriate curriculum, was diversity. The opportunity, the pleasure, the **privilege **of meeting and interacting with kids from a variety of lifestyles, cultures and races (including her own) was what *she *valued most in her selection of a college.</p>
<p>I do not believe that diversity in a college or workplace is important to everyone. Of course it isn’t! But, just as some kids will make the final selection of their college based on weather, proximity to a large or small city, presence or not of a core curriculum, or even the size of the dorm rooms, my D made her initial shortlist of colleges based on diversity, which, unfortunately, immediately tossed UCLA and UCB out of the running.</p>
Ok - so the UC system did not have “an unbelievably low rate of “diversity” + overcrowding + disgruntled students and professors” prior to your daughter applying? Despite these “flaws” she applied anyway and based on your post would have attended if not for the fortunate “throw of the dice” and acceptance at Stanford & Harvard. Isn’t it convenient that NOW you can claim the lack of diversity us WHY your daughter chose not to attend one of the UCs?</p>
Similar to claiming that dignified1’s daughter wouldn’t attend the UCs AFTER applying to three of them and AFTER being accepted at Harvard and Standford.
Not allergic to logic, just yours and ksarmand’s weak attempt at justifying AA.
Enjoy it while you can. Hopefully you’ll be able to tell your children about how you were the last generation to milk out some more "special’ advantage before AA was overturned nationwide as it has been with the UCs and other schools.</p>
I repeat: Maybe she would have turned down Harvard and Stanford, maybe not. You cannot say that aglages, without knowing what scholarships she might have gotten and other things. </p>
<p>Logical fallcy 2: incomplete information. aka Suppressed Evidence
Without knowing scholarships, financial status, love of the university or dignified’s daughter you can not make any sort of decision about whether dignified’s daughter would or wouldn’t attend UCSD OTHER than relying on what dignified has said b/c she presumably knows the whole story.</p>
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<p>I agree, thanks Nuclear Penguin. Even assuming AA is wrong ( a position I do not agree with)- How is my using AA any different from others using
legacy preferences
family connections to get a job
aglages using the fact that she is white & a woman to gain a better job/a boyfriend/ or
more attention from police when she needs help?
aglages taking scholarship money from a women in college fund.
aglages benefitting from the AA that made white women a majority on college campuses
She didn’t choose to be white or a woman BUT
She is all of the aforesaid things. So she uses them as advantages.</p>
<p>Aglages, you should stop taking advantage of the system yourself, which I bet you do,each and every day. </p>
<p>But only silly people would not use any advantage they have.</p>
<p>Note:
See, I argued AA from a Machiavellian standpoint. I hope it will make more sense to you, aglages.</p>
The only thing I can think about for legacy preferences is that it keeps wealthier families in the loop, or used to at least. Or helps with alumni giving because they are more satisfied. I don’t know. But unless there’s proof that it helps with funds or something (which I could understand why colleges would want that), I see it on the same level as AA. It’s really dumb.</p>
<p>However, applicants aren’t legacies to all schools they apply to, and it affects a much smaller %. The underlying principle I don’t agree with either.</p>
<p>You can apply the same statement that someone is “a woman to gain a better job/a boyfriend/ or more attention from police when she needs help?”. With “a man to gain a better job/a girlfriend”. I don’t think that’s a necessarily valid point. Because it seems like men have better jobs than women (generally). And it’s not like most women are going to want a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend? As for the last part, I did a quick Google search with “do police favor women”, and couldn’t find any definitive results.</p>
<p>I don’t get the part about her taking scholarship money from a women in college fund? I don’t know if it’s the errors in that sentence but I don’t get what you were trying to say.</p>
<p>With women now though, the reason %'s are higher for female enrollment is that girls outperform boys in school. </p>
<p>I don’t see how she is taking advantage of being white. You don’t get any automatic boosts as far as I know in college admissions for being white.</p>
<p>Um guys, I don’t think the low diversity rates among African-Americans at certain schools is an AA issue. Certain schools will receive more applications from high achieving minority students because those are the schools that they are told to shoot for. From my own experience, most of the people that I knew told me to shoot for ivy league and similar schools, and I assume from the Admitted Stats Post that most of the other high achieving minority students on CC followed these urgings when they were choosing schools to apply to. Aside from a school’s academics and overall bumper sticker recognition, minority students, like all students, look for a lot of things in a school like:</p>
<p>-Extracurriculars
-Job Opportunities
-Financial Aid (which most public universities like the UCs and some LACs give very little of)
-A School’s Graduation and Retention Rate
-And finally, Diversity.<br>
Diversity is a huge deal because it means that there will be some type of support group on campus that, if you want it, will help you adjust. Most of these Black Student Unions help to nurture new students and provide them with the help during the shock that college is for ALL students, while helping with issues that pertain specifically to the African-American population on campus. Diversity does not tell us how generous they are with AA, but how likely we are to feel that comfort that only comes from seeing someone of your own race. While you may not be the best of friends, their presence makes you feel like you are not alone. While Whites and some Asians (Chinese, Japanese) may not feel like this is important, but to most minorities, who of course will live their lives as the minority in almost every situation, having this glimpse of someone that we can relate to is important. Diversity also suggests that the school is open to differing viewpoints, which helps everyone learn better. Since everyone loves to research AA so much, why don’t some of the bigger talkers on this board research what the OP was actually talking about: what can happen when people are emboldened by the lack of diversity at a school and allow their own racism to be put on display. It is incidents like this, not the lack of AA that makes the UCs and other schools with similar incidents so unattractive.</p>
<p>On a personal note, The UCs are overrated to me… 62,000+ applications for what? Let’s be honest, if the UCs didn’t have the California weather, they would not get that many apps. Especially when you could get the same quality education in the east or at some midwestern schools. Just sayin’. :)</p>
<p>Nuclear Penguin,
I don’t mean women competing with men, I mean white women competing with black women,Asian women or Chinese women.
Right now, as a white person in America, applying for a job–you are more likely to get called back if your name is white sounding (Sue, Joe)
Than if it is black sounding ( Janelle, Rochelle)
[quote]
Moreover research suggests that black women crime victims are less likely to receive help than white women crime victims<a href=“Robinson%20and%20Chadnek%202000”>/quote</a>
I apologize about the scholarship fun, I wasn’t being clear. White women often have scholarship funds for women in engineering and so on.
White women are more desired than black women when guys are choosing wives.
As for outperforming guys in school, how do you think it came to that point? People need to stop discounting AA in the success of white women. What happened was that, more and more white women were accepted into college campuses, society began to expect women to have educations, women began performing better in classes. ALL BECAUSE OF AA
Maybe white women are now outperforming men, but there is a very strong case that it wouldn’t have occurred without AA.</p>
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<p>I see how she is taking advantage of being white,not in college, but in life. You get a boost in life for being white. </p>
<p>Another thing I want to understand is this : why do you care. Even Thomas Sowell, a noted AA critic said, that the anger at AA is out of proportion to the benefits received.</p>
<p>@nil, when I first read the comment above, which was posted by aglages, I wrote out a long post to explain why my D “applied anyway” to the UCs in question, even though they were no longer her favorites. In my explanation, I included reference to the fact that the UC application was due *long *before she could have known that she would be *accepted *to all of her favorites and long before she could have known if we would be able to *afford *her favorites. And, I believe I also mentioned that I thought it odd that Mr. or Ms. aglages thought that it was so unbelievable that anyone could possibly consider choosing UCLA or UC Berkeley over any other top ranked school. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>But, then I stopped, erased what I had written and did not post it. It is clear to me, nil, that no matter what you, I or any other poster on this forum writes, aglages has already made up his/her mind on this issue. And, you know what, that’s fine! Let it be. I’m afraid you are trying to roll an extremely large boulder up an extremely steep hill.</p>
<p>Let it be. Don’t feed her/ his ego by spending your valuable time responding. Just let it be. I, for one, am done.</p>
When you get out of college and are applying for your first job, you will get a boost over me because you have a white or asian name and I have a black-sounding name
When you buy your first house, your real-estate owners will show you a house in a better neighborhood than they will show me, the houses I want to buy will not be for sale.
If you are female, a man we both want to date will pick you over me.
when we are in the university, I will have to work harder to prove my intelligence to my professors, while you will be considered smarter.
If you are female, people will tell you that you are beautiful. ( No one has ever told me that , honestly, yet)
when you want to go to the school dance, you will easily find a date. I can’t find one.
when you want to buy a car, car dealers will automatically give you a better price. even if I am just as educated and intelligent as you. ( Malcolm Galdwell did a study on this)
you will receive better health care from your doctor. I know someone whose doctor bamboozled through a surgery for her b/c she was stereotyped as a fat black woman. she’s dead now.
If I get robbed and you are robbed, police will answer you more quickly than they answer me.
I am more likely (probably twice) to be stopped by police than you.
I commit a minor crime, I am more likely to serve jail time.
If I kill someone, I will end up on death row more often than you do.
And after wading through all that racism, fighting everything–when i get home to my kids, my daughter will want the white barbie doll because she’s white and prettier. </p>
<p>My sister, right now,is busy trying to be as white as possible-letting her hair down long. Every time, I go downstairs to the computer I find a computer fashion game in which the model is ALWAYS white. Never black. What do I tell her? Do I tell her that black is beautiful</p>
<p>when I know it isn’t?</p>
<p>Really, nuclear penguin, so what if I get a boost? You will be getting that boost and more your entire life. Do I feel bad for getting AA.</p>
<p>Not at all. I 'm still going to have a lot more problems to deal with. thank you.</p>
<p>edit* you are right, dignified. I didn’t see your post.</p>
<p>I think with these final statements, I’m done.</p>
<p>Why are Asians the only group which get a negative factor in admissions due to AA? Why not Whites then? How do you rationalize that? </p>
<p>Even if all the things you listed are true, what about my point? </p>
<p>I’d like to see some links to studies which illustrate each point. Does this apply to Native Americans and Mexicans as well too?? Some are definitely not based in fact.</p>
<p>Nobody on this site should have to rationalize any Asian disadvantage. We are not admissions officers. We, ourselves, are not those who practice affirmative action. Your complaints, although seemingly reasonable, are misdirected.</p>