UD over Ivy/UD to Ivy

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Delaware
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There is no question that you can get as good of a college experience going to a good flagship (especially in an honors program) as an elite private. It is how the individual grabs his/her opportunities. Frank Bruni’s book is a great read on this.

That having been said, I do think the opportunities offered are different. I seriously considered UD, but if I had gone there, I am pretty sure I would have chosen to be an engineer. I probably also would have likely hung out with my high school friends who ended up going there, and most likely would have ended up working for DuPont, Hercules or some other “science/engineering” company in that part of the country. Instead, I went to an Ivy, and ended up in a career in law and then finance and have lived all over the world.

I also believe that I was likely pushed harder intellectually. You go from a situation of almost always being the smartest kid in the class to someone pretty average, and you see and study with others who are much more accomplished than you are. It is not to say there are not plenty of extremely strong students at state schools, especially honors programs, but I suspect the depth and breadth of the strength is different.

In comparison, my brother went out of state (UofM honors), spent his junior year at Cambridge and went on to med school and is affiliated with one of the top hospitals in his area of specialty. So going to a state school did not limit him in any way. I do think it can make a difference though whether you go in state or OOS. Sometimes in state makes staying in place too easy.

With my 2 kids, they had places in the our state flagship (a good one). We had the luxury that finances did not limit their choices. D had the opportunity to continue to play her sport at the D3 level and attend college in a more intimate LAC environment that suited her personality better than our massive flagship. S was more suited to a larger university, but I am not sure if he would be having the same experience there vs his Ivy. His current suite consists of classmates who have lived in France, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Ghana and Italy. He has spent a summer abroad in an immersive language program, worked a consulting internship at a boutique shop this past summer and is doing a bulge bracket IB internship this summer. I don’t doubt he would have met great and interesting classmates and had good summer work opportunities, but they would not have been the same if he had gone to our flagship.

At the end of the day though it all comes down to optimum fit. I agree that the Ivies or you name it elite school don’t have a monopoly on that.

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@BKSquared: “It is not to say there are not plenty of extremely strong students at state schools, especially honors programs, but I suspect the depth and breadth of the strength is different.”

I agree. There are definitely going to be more high-stats kids/strong students at one of the elites than most state flagships.

But it’s not like UD has none. I was particularly impressed with one lady in the Class of 2019 (full disclosure, not my daughter):

https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2019/march/gates-cambridge-scholarship-bailey-weatherbee-distinguished-scholar-biology/

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^Pretty impressive!

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Now a year out of the college decision process I can honestly say it’s SO HARD to turn down “prestige”. My daughter’s top 2 choices were Boston University and UW Madison for Biomedical Engineering. She got into both schools, but didn’t get any money. $72,000 a year for BU and $55,000 for Madison. She had applied to Delaware on a whim because they had a skating team and she figured, why not? UD offered her a large merit scholarship and admission to the honors program. She toured the school and the Biomedical Engineering student that showed her around really impressed her. She’s about to finish her first semester there. They accepted so many of her AP credits she went in as a sophomore. There are a TON of research opportunities, even for freshmen, and she has found some amazing clubs to be a part of in addition to skating on the team. There are some downsides that are found at many large state universities (inaccessible professors/TAs for intro classes - especially terrible for her in Calculus and Comp Sci), but she utilizes every resource they have there and is confident that will get better as she gets out of the “weed out” courses. It’s not a perfect school, but no school is. It’s a beautiful campus and a great location. If you are OOS it’s pricey, unless you qualify for merit. With merit, it was the cheapest school she was accepted to - even cheaper than our state flagship university (University of Illinois). If you would have asked me a year ago if Delaware was going to be her choice I would have said no way - but I’m glad she chose it. We looked carefully at the stats for grad school and the biomedical engineering majors were getting into some super top rate grad programs - MIT, Penn, etc. One last note - she is in the honors program and has told me on numerous occasions that they are the smartest people she has ever met. She super impressed with the caliber of the student body in the program.

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FWIW: I believe that if you are really “all that”, there can be some advantage to joining a cohort of largely like-capability students, for branding purposes. That makes it easier for the few employers who are after those kind of people to find you.

Investment banks, consulting firms, certain “elite” companies, target colleges known to have high numbers of such students. Though of course they hire others as well.

eg, "Most Common Brown CS Grad First Job Employers

  1. Google – 26% of grads
  2. Microsoft – 11% of grads
  3. Facebook – 3% of grads "
    http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2164299-colleges-with-highest-new-grad-median-earnings-by-major-p2.html

My guess is U Delaware CS grads First Job Employers list does not look like that.

My second guess is some of the differential in initial earnings shown in post #2 here:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2164794-comparing-earnings-by-major-between-different-types-of-colleges.html
may be partly attributable to a portion of the “elite school” grads getting siphoned off away from “regular corporate engineering” to one of these other paths.

When I was in investment banking, the “good undergrad school” seemed to play a role even after an MBA. The several former engineers I met while working there all went to “good” undergrad schools. At my own MBA program, the word was the I-banks only hired MBAs who had done undergrad from an Ivy et al.

Of course you don’t get those jobs, or keep them, simply by going to a particular school. You have to really be “all that”. And fit.

And if you don’t want those jobs anyway, it doesn’t matter. There is no advantage. Maybe even somewhat of a disadvantage, as the massive number of state U grads there may take a dislike to you. If you want a job as a chemical engineer at DuPont, Air Products, etc- go to a good state u. Like U Delaware, for chemical engineering. Or, in some cases, go to a school close to the employer.

My alma mater made no difference to my career as an engineer- except that my employer recruited on my campus out of region, which they only did at a few schools. But the undergrad degree was handy for me when I decided to change directions out of engineering later on. Which I did not at all anticipate doing before that.

IMO, YMMV, etc.

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Let me throw a twist in this argument and point out the public service benefit of the OP’s suggestion: strong students should take a very hard look at state schools.

My obsessively careful kid did an extraordinary amount of research to form his college list. He could tell you the research programs for every faculty member in his major for at least 20 universities. He knew research budgets. Publication levels. Equipment in the labs. Participation levels in a bunch of multi-institution ginormous research grants. He was a complete dork and out this.

He was eventually able to identify four schools which were the clear winners and also had the ‘flavor’ of chem engineering he wanted. The four were virtually indistinguishable using all of his combined criteria. Except one had a tuition of $12k. Others, at least $4Ok (and as much as $52k).

Once all of the more subjective factors (Something about a football team???). for him were included, our state flagship (OSU) was the clear winner. A fantastic situation - my kid’s safety also turned out to be his favorite, and that came through months of careful research and consideration. He is ecstatic and so are we. And so is our checkbook. Did a part of us want him to go to an elite school? Yes. But we can’t beat his confidence in his choice. We still have our moments of …shouldn’t you apply to at least a couple schools in the RD round, just in case you feel differently in April??? Then he reminds us that the core things he wants in a college has not changed, really, in the two years he has lived and breathed this. Why would it change now? Argh…I hate when my kid is so obnoxiously right. Dang it.

Contrast him to one of his best friends, who, on paper, is identical. Same GPA, to 2 decimal points. Same SAT, exactly. Identical ECs, except one plays baseball and one plays soccer. Both are hockey defensemen. Both have light brown hair. Both are lefties. Both names start with the letter D. Both want an engineering major. But Kid B did zero, and I mean zero, college research. His physician parents dragged him on college visits all summer. Saw the usual suspects (Ivies, MIT, Williams). Kid liked MIT, Cornell and Dartmouth. Excellent! He’s all set, right? Fortunately, our GCs literally force kids to apply to a safety school. And he did - Our flagship, just like my son. Hasn’t heard yet, but he will definitely get accepted.

So, four or so months from now, Kid B will probably have a handful of rejections and an acceptance to tOSU. And he will be bummed - will feel like he got the booby prize. Why? Because all he knew about these schools were their brand images and what the campus looks like in the summer.

Two kids. Same exact academic achievement and one will start college thinking he’d won the lottery. The other, not so much. Difference is one educated himself. The other did not.

So, if the OP gets one kid to do some research to improve his or her ability to objectively compare colleges, then he can go to sleep knowing he did a good thing. Knowledge is power. Eyes wide open is a better way to go.

Just sayin’.

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@cypresspat: PREACH! :wink:

Your last paragraph expresses things better than I ever could. Thank you.

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Great discussion folks. Very though provoking…Lets hope some kids on this forum read it …not just all of us old over involved parents…lol…

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Agree. I’m also a Penn grad. My majors: English and Am Civ (now called Am Studies). Before deciding to pursue a PhD I interviewed with several top consulting firms that came to campus, and received offers. Would I have had the same opportunities with the same majors at UD? Maybe, but my guess is it would have been more difficult.

My H is a software engineer who attended a T10 LAC. When he enrolled he was interested in a different major so it made sense. He later switched to CS. After graduating he went to grad school because he needed to “beef up” his CS credentials. While he went to an ivy for grad school, it was a top ranked program that gave him a full ride with a stipend (through a fellowship).

My S23 is also interested in CS. My husband is encouraging him to look at several schools that are elite for his field, but are not the brand names of the ivies. He says when his company looks to hire candidates, they look at the top CS programs regardless of their school’s overall “prestige” tag. It’s about the field.

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@NESCACSportsDad Huh? My D didn’t even visit Harvard, let alone apply. The only Ivy she considered for engineering was Cornell.

Not sure where you got that? The H I referred to in my above paragraph you quoted was H=husband.

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Are you on the right thread? I can’t find a NESCACSportsDad posting on this thread. Maybe I missed it. But I’m glad you resurrected this thread 17 months after it was active because it’s a great read with the pros and cons being articulated very well.

I want to add a comment about the discussion in this thread. It pretty quickly developed into a comparison and contrast between state schools, especially flagships, and private elites. I would simply note that all state flagships are not the same.

With regard to the University od Delaware in particular, there are several facts that make it different:

  1. Founded in 1743, it’s one of fewer than 20 colleges which date back to colonial days (pre-Revolutionary War). For most of its history it was a private college. I believe it’s status is still only quasi-state school with a private Board of Directors. (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.)
  2. It’s full time enrollment on the main campus is only 17,000+, which is small as state flagships go.
  3. It’s instate enrollment is only 63+%, which is again low as state flagships go. That gives the mix a different feel than most state schools and those OOS tuitions help to keep it well funded.
  4. According to info from UD, the student-faculty ratio is 13:1, which is again low for state schools.
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SevenDad, thanks for the post. It gives me hope. My son will be joining UD as an Eugene DuPont scholar. He withdrew his applications from some great schools. He applied to one ivy but got rejected(Penn). He was a bit heartbroken, but UD was able to give him his perfect double majors along with so many other things: summer research, practicum embedded in his semester, world scholars, internship opportunity abroad, a stipend for an enrichment activity…the list goes on. When we were looking at some ivies and elites during the college application process my son felt either the Major was not a match or he did not want to apply (after visiting campus) or he did not like being too far from home. My son will go the MS/PhD route, so we personally as parents feel that where he does his last education/qualification from will matter the most. He wants to start his career as a principal scientist in the Pharma industry.

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Hope to keep this thread alive.

Son just accepted to ChemE atU of D and honors college. Campus visit with blustery weather and COVID didn’t go so well, but on further reflection, it’s still very much in the running as he waits to hear from other choices.

My wife and I thought it was terrific. Stay tuned.

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@Wowthatspricey My daughter is a freshman computer science major, which is in the school of engineering, and also in the honors college. Our tour was so-so (rainy day, huge tour group, last college visit after 4 other visits in 4 days) and she wasn’t overly impressed. However, UD gave her an amazing scholarship so she decided to attend - best decision ever! She was hesitant at first but all in after about two weeks on campus. She lived in a dorm this fall and really connected with others in the honors college, many of whom could have gone to Ivy League schools but chose UD instead. She really likes the flexibility within the honors program. You have a wide variety of courses to choose from instead of all honors students being in the same course each semester, as some other schools do. If you have any specific questions please reach out! Those in the school of engineering travel to New Zealand every other year so hopefully, once Covid is under control, they will get that experience before graduation.

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