Uh Oh (Free Taiwan!)

College Confidential Community
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<p>sentient were you being sarcastic about the admissions thing? because there really is no advantage to being chinese</p>

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<p>I've only browsed the the thread, but the amount of inaccuracies in this thread is appalling. I'd like to address some issues.</p>

<p>First off, China cannot simply "let go" of Taiwan because of its strategic importance, militarily. The second Taiwan declares independence, the USA will come in and set up its military bases, as it has done in South Korea and Japan.</p>

<p>Second, I remember on the first page someone said a navy would be the bulk of the force behind in the takeover of Taiwan. That is POSSIBLE, but not certain. I've studied several possible routes China may take to reclaim Taiwan, its missile force is likely to play a large role - it may end up playing a larger role than the navy, in the event Taiwan decides to secede. Anyways, some parts of the Chinese navy are capable of keeping the US's navy at arm's length, mainly its submarine force, with its nuclear powered subs. Many are armed to the teeth with mix of home made and Russian bought missiles.</p>

<p>Third, again, I don't think you guys understand the magnitude of the situation. Letting go of Taiwan will set off a ripple effect, it will fuel the current uprising in Tibet and possibly start an uprising in the North Eastern portions of China, possibly XinJiang.</p>

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<p>
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sentient were you being sarcastic about the admissions thing? because there really is no advantage to being chinese

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<p>No, reread my post :-p, I was quoting jake, my response to him was.</p>

<p>"Asians are overrepresented in the admissions process, they are discriminated AGAINST. Geez."</p>

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<p>So don't you understand? I want it to be!</p>

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<p>blackdream.....lol have u ever been to taiwan? the written language (yet the chinese are lazy and simplified half of the characters) is virtually the same however most news stations, tv shows, commercials are spoken in taiwanese lol. taiwanese is NOT the same as mandarin chinese.</p>

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<p>Let's not start discriminating here.</p>

<p>I just realized, all this time we're fighting, we're actually talking about two completely different regions. I think I should clarify things to everyone, and maybe solve some unnecessary conflict. "Taiwain" is an island part of China where all people are Chinese and have no distinct difference from the rest of the Chinese people; therefore, it is part of China. However, "Taiwan" is an independently governed island, with distinct differences than the peoples across a narrow body of water, and seeks to utilize their natural human rights to obtain official status as a recognized country. We're arguing over two completely different regions, guys! No wonder things aren't getting across.</p>

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<p>what are you talking about</p>

<p>min nan yue</p>

<p>or guo yue</p>

<p>guo yue is almost the same as Chinese.</p>

<p>we lazy and simply characters? call us lazy then.</p>

<p>yeah, i've seen your TV shows, musics, whatever</p>

<p>believe me they are all the same.</p>

<p>I haven't been to taiwan before but will go there soon.</p>

<p>133, you are right
i respect your will to independent actually
but those "green" politicans are just, lame.</p>

<p>you do know that the taiwanese president's daughter's video is now available in video stores right? another problem about taiwan is all the hidden camaras in hotels, etc. (sorry for being random)</p>

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<p>So don't you understand? I want it to be!

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<p>In that case I still suggest you stop trying to play global police and mind your own business. Anyways, its not like its going to happen, so no need to get your hopes up.</p>

<p>Edit: Anyways, that was in response to the people saying stuff like "Why can China just let Taiwan go? Its just a little island."
or

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Its not about Taiwan. I seriously doubt that China really cares about the benefits of allying Taiwan. Taiwan is battleground. China is a growing strength, a growing threat to the US if I may say it. In threatening Taiwan, China is merely flexing its muscles and testing the world's reaction. If the US and the rest of the world fail the test and allow China to invade Taiwan, then we can watch China gradually take control over all of Eastern Asia.
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Even the former Superpower of Soviet Russia was able to loosen its grip on its satellite countries -- why can't China? It's one friggin' island. What part of that does it not understand?

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<p>Statements like that are show a complete lack of understanding of the region's issues.</p>

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<p>You have not made a single argument that is better than opposing views that have been made. You have no right to make claims like "Statements like that are show a complete lack of understanding of the region's issues." Well...you could say that...but you just look ridiculously stupid.</p>

<p>Trying to actually justify China's want of Taiwan with Taiwan's "military importance" (?) is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. If the US is so interested in building a base there, there is nothing to stop them from doing that right now. I maintain what i said about China merely flexing its muscles and testing global resolve.</p>

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<p>actually, there is the so called "first ring of islands"</p>

<p>this first ring of islands consist of Korea, Taiwan, and Japan (guams and such)</p>

<p>this ring is used to contain the Soviets, and now the Chinese.</p>

<p>US actually had military base on Taiwan until the 70's</p>

<p>after that time, with advent of stealth bomber(B2), supersonic penetrational bombers (B1), USA no longer need to expose its personel under threat of mainland's strategic missiles, because US's military presence on Guam can pretty much do it, and a military base on Taiwan does not respond well to missile attack (except to become cannon fodders)</p>

<p>There are currently B52, B1b, or even B2s on Guam, one of the most complete US bomber base off shore.</p>

<p>Because of this ring of Islands and China's lack of aircraft carrier, NONE of its surface vessels may breach it and truly go on to the pacific ocean to challenge USA's blue sea power.</p>

<p>Additionally, China cannot protect its oil interest due to presence of this island ring, for Taiwan can easily attack Chinese fleet, and Chinese fleet maynot have the appropriate aircover.</p>

<p>By taking Taiwan, China may gain the first window to the shining sea, and it may well gain a base to extend range of its Su fighters to the south sea, where its oil resources are being exploited.</p>

<p>Again bigjake, if you don't know anything about military or world history,don't comment.</p>

<p>Likely route of Chinese taking over taiwan:</p>

<p>Saturation attack from the DF series missiles, destroying ALL airfields, C3 centres, AAA complex, and any military or civilian targets with strategic importance.</p>

<p>The DF series are highly accurate strategic missiles that can be armed with many different warheads.</p>

<p>Secondary attack comes from hundreds of Su30, Su27SK, J10, armed with anti-radiation missiles and anti-air missiles for airsuperiority. J8II's will likely to use its high-speed advantage to rush to Taiwan's E2Cs (assuming they are still in the air)</p>

<p>While nuclear subforce will monitor movement of Japanese and USA vessels. It has been suggested that if Japan is to involve in this conflict, Japan's mainland will become a theatre of war (given PLA's inablity to launch conventional attack as far as Japan, this may well be a threat of nuclear bombardment)</p>

<p>USA carriers will be attacked if its planes get involved.</p>

<p>After all beach defense had been eliminated by waves of bombing for air, heavier vehicles are likely to be sent to Taiwain, and special force infilitration is also a possibly</p>

<p>Additionally, China has very limited amphiuous assualt capability and is unlikely to launch a D-Day like assualt.</p>

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<p>I'm not impressed with your names of bombers. So you spend your Saturday nights learning different weapons. Wow. </p>

<p>First of all, what you said only confirms what i said. The US does not NEED a military base on Taiwan. Second, if China is interested in Taiwan because it wants to put a base there that would extend its power and potentially threaten the US and its Pacific bases, that is only another reason for the US to challenge it. </p>

<p>Now, you may return to giving me your names of fighter jets and how far they fly and how many missiles each one carries blah blah.</p>

<p>Again, if you need to resort to stupid names to hide the fact that you really have no grasp on history, don't comment.</p>

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<p>Yes, you have said what I meant to say. USA is closing in on China by building up a big military prescence around it and China needs to break out by gaining Taiwan in order to protect its interest on the sea.</p>

<p>I guess saying it this way you can finally understand it, since you do not ANYTHING about military.</p>

<p>How many missiles a fighter carry or how far they fly is considered minor characteristics for modern fighters.</p>

<p>THose are the important characterstics:</p>

<p>manuverablity - do they have canards? thrust vectoring, etc
BVR capability and radar
can they super cruise?
stealthiness.</p>

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<p>
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You have not made a single argument that is better than opposing views that have been made. You have no right to make claims like "Statements like that are show a complete lack of understanding of the region's issues." Well...you could say that...but you just look ridiculously stupid.</p>

<p>Trying to actually justify China's want of Taiwan with Taiwan's "military importance" (?) is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. If the US is so interested in building a base there, there is nothing to stop them from doing that right now. I maintain what i said about China merely flexing its muscles and testing global resolve.

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<p>My comments are fully backed by the facts, while the majority of the statements here have been something to the extend of "Nuke the Chinese!" </p>

<p>"China flexing its muscles?" What the heck are you talking about again? Obviously China is trying to TAKE BACK a rogue province, which it has governed through out history. I think you've mistaken the USA for China. Obviously its the USA flexing its muscles as global policeman again. </p>

<p>Whose land is this? China's.
Who wants to secede? Taiwan.
Whose butting in to flex its muscles? The USA.</p>

<p>I think that should get the facts across to you. Obviously the USA has no business in this, as you said above "the USA doesn't need Taiwan." So why else is it butting in? To "free the people" like in Iraq? Yeah, bull.</p>

<p>News Flash, China isn't a totalitarian regime, its no where close to as oppressive as Iraq and all those other countries. Hell, the Nationalist party was facist and tortured people and the USA still supported it. </p>

<p>I visited China last summer, its not like the USA's propaganda blows it up to. You can say crap about the govt, demonstrate, what ever the heck you want. I even sent a letter to the mayor of the city, advocating for better environmental conditions. I'm still alive, I even got a reply back, they said that they appreciated my feedback and that they were working on it. And no, they didn't torture me and kill my family. </p>

<p>And yes, I do have the right to make those statements, you don't have a clue about the situation, yet you insist on making asinine comments about it just because you believe that China is a threat to world peace because its communist.</p>

<p>That comment about affirmative action benefitting the Chinese really shows your understanding of the situation bigjake, I don't think you ever backed it up? You're really one to be accusing others of "making claims" and saying "dumb" things.</p>

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First of all, what you said only confirms what i said. The US does not NEED a military base on Taiwan. Second, if China is interested in Taiwan because it wants to put a base there that would extend its power and potentially threaten the US and its Pacific bases, that is only another reason for the US to challenge it.

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<p>You just said China doesn't need Taiwan, NOT the USA doesn't need Taiwan. Get your points down, you're going everywhere. I'd suggest you actually organize your thoughts before spouting them on the board and wasting people's time.</p>

<p>China's taking of Taiwan is NOT a threat to the USA, however, if the USA took Taiwan, it would be a threat to China. There would be more missiles pointed at China.</p>

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I'm not impressed with your names of bombers. So you spend your Saturday nights learning different weapons. Wow.
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Now, you may return to giving me your names of fighter jets and how far they fly and how many missiles each one carries blah blah.</p>

<p>Again, if you need to resort to stupid names to hide the fact that you really have no grasp on history, don't comment.

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<p>Wow, just because you cannot refute his post does not mean you have to attack his understanding of the material. </p>

<p>FYI: You're making posts on an internet board about getting into college. The fact that your doing that takes away all rights you have of labeling other people as "nerds."</p>

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<p>Why not? USA is a democratic state and brings the freedom, it can be a policemen, while China brings the death to whole nations.</p>

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<p>brings death to the whole nations?</p>

<p>wow</p>

<p>support? where?</p>

<p>why did Chinese die during the sixtie's due to famine? Maybe it was because of some embargo setup by a certain state that "brings freedom and save the world"? </p>

<p>I don't even want to talk about Iraq, with all the torture and stuff.</p>

<p>All I was saying is that there is no point to let USA fight against China.</p>

<p>A majority amount of comtempory press/literature has to do with bashing the Chinese government. ALmost every antagonists are some corrupt officals, etc.</p>

<p>It's those who ADVOCATE TO overthrow the Chinese government that got arrested.</p>

<p>Remember, USA Supreme court has set the same precedent too in 1924 (I think)</p>

<p>China does not want to flex its muscles, but it gets anonying when your own fishers got killed by some countries' Navy on China's own sea. (I am not talking about taiwan trait neither, I am talking about the south sea)</p>

<p>More over, the relationship of US and China is FAR from hostile at this point.</p>

<p>Kitty Hawk carrier just went to Hong Kong. You know that is the PRIMARY airsupport shall there be a war between Taiwan and China</p>

<p>Kitty hawk is now at South Korea though.</p>

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<p>First of all, I never said that affirmative action benefits Asians. Find where i said that before you try to discredit me.</p>

<p>Second, i never said that the US NEEDS Taiwan...i said that the US should prevent China from taking Taiwan. There's a difference. What you are referring to is when I was replying to YOUR post that the US was going to build a military base in Taiwan and thereby pose a threat to China. My response: The US does not NEED Taiwan so it does not need a military base there. Blackdream affirmed. </p>

<p>Seems like you need to organize YOUR thoughts. </p>

<p>"I visited China last summer, its not like the USA's propaganda blows it up to. You can say crap about the govt, demonstrate, what ever the heck you want. I even sent a letter to the mayor of the city, advocating for better environmental conditions. I'm still alive, I even got a reply back, they said that they appreciated my feedback and that they were working on it. And no, they didn't torture me and kill my family."</p>

<p>No...the MAYOR is not going to kill you over environmental reforms. How, from your one visit, did you ascertain the entire political climate of China? Protests about stupid causes are not going to lead to arrests. I know that China has a bad human rights record. I will post statistics if you disagree with this...</p>

<p>"why did Chinese die during the sixtie's due to famine? Maybe it was because of some embargo setup by a certain state that "brings freedom and save the world"?"</p>

<p>Um...is the US OBLIGED to trade with countries it disagrees with??? That just further reveals the nature of China's government. They did not even make reforms in order to save their people. Typical communism/centralization where people have no say. Don't shift blame to the US. </p>

<p>"It's those who ADVOCATE TO overthrow the Chinese government that got arrested.</p>

<p>Remember, USA Supreme court has set the same precedent too in 1924 (I think)"</p>

<p>Thats incorrect. The case you're referring to, Schechter vs. the United States established that under certain circumstances, freedom of speech can be limited when it poses a clear and present danger. This "clear and present danger" only exists in times of war or conflict. Otherwise, people are free to say what they want. </p>

<p>Here's one example: The Nazi Party of the US. The Nazis always claim that they will overthrow the government and once they do they will expel all non-white, non-Protestant people from the country. They have not been arrested nor has their right to march been taken away because they make general statements that do not pose an "explicit threat" to anyone. </p>

<p>In the US, one can burn a US flag legally. </p>

<p>Would any of these things happen in China?</p>

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<p>bigjake i didn't say that you said that... altho somethings you said did bother me... i respect your right to say it... however stardragon said this "Exactly. I don't know why Asians have advantage in admission process as an "underrepresented minority", I think now they're "extrarepresented majority". This is discrimination. I understand when the people from 3 world countries with bad opportunities for achievments have some advataage, but chinese..?"</p>

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<p>Okay, bigjake, I apologize. I got you mixed up with stardragon, I really don't get what he was trying to say.</p>

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<p>Good god lol. Just because its democratic doesn't mean it has the right to do these things. Have you heard of Guantanamo Bay? Sending people abroad to be tortured, yeah that was in the name of the "war on terror." And taking away the rights of the people under a mask of the so called "war against terror?" Don't think you're safe and sound just because you're in the USA. If you're trying to overthrow the gov't, it won't hesitate to imprison you and harm you.</p>

<p>Just incase you didn't know, the USA has a pretty crappy record abroad, it doesn't always bring freedom. The USA brings freedom when "freedom" suits its aims. What about the Vietnam War? They supported a dictatorship. What about the Nationalist Party? Facists. I'm sure those are all much better than China.</p>

<p>And just to let you know, the CIA has been known to kill/cause the deaths thousands of people in foreign countries. </p>

<p>Don't kid yourselves, there is no truly democratic country out there. Even now, the govt has the right to violate your personal rights just as long as they label you as a "threat to national security." </p>

<p>Many peaceful protesters against the war in Iraq/Bush have all been arrested before, is that any different from situations in China? Remember the torturing at Abu Ghraib? Heck, I'm sure the CIA has tortured people before too, its just out of the public's view. Anyways, is shipping people overseas to torture them, any more justifiable morally? China has a bad human rights record, but the USA's record isn't exactly squeaky clean either. You can't claim the USA has the moral high ground on human rights.</p>

<p>And Bigjake? I didn't say, you said the USA NEEDED Taiwan. I was asking you, why would the USA interfere if it didn't? Again, back to flexing its muscles.</p>

<p>Don't pull that junk about freedom, because we all know freedom takes a backseat in politics.</p>

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<p>about that Chinese famine, believe me, they TRIED to reform, but it just doesn't work when you have an embargo (READ, EMBARGO, not refusal to help, EMBARGO, or deny fair trade with a country, I hope you read English)</p>

<p>The word "clear and present danger" can be interpreted many different way. Schechter was a member of the American communist party and US was not at war with the Soviet's at that time.</p>

<p>and I agree about that freedom thing. </p>

<p>all those "freedom, liberty" things are just media spinning.</p>

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<p>"Just because its democratic doesn't mean it has the right to do these things."</p>

<p>It doesn't. However, the US was put in the position as a superpower after WWII to have certain control on world issues.</p>

<p>About Iraq: if you guys want to prove the US is evil, use something else. Or, separate Bush from the US for your arguments. It's unfair to say the US thinks like Bush. Because after Bush's term is finished, the problems during his administration will be the past, and the US will still be the US.</p>

<p>"Many peaceful protesters against the war in Iraq/Bush have all been arrested before"</p>

<p>If people are arrested, it's because they were not being peaceful. Although they may have started their day peaceful, but not when they decide to go too far in their demonstration.</p>

<p>"And just to let you know, the CIA has been known to kill/cause the deaths thousands of people in foreign countries."</p>

<p>And they are bad guys who were killed, right? Not helpless children without bombs strapped on them, right?</p>

<p>"Schechter was a member of the American communist party and US was not at war with the Soviet's at that time."</p>

<p>No, but you have to remember about the Red Scare. Americans didn't want Communists in their government.</p>

<p>Correct me if I'm wrong:
The reason China wants Taiwan so badly is because when the Ching Dynasty lost land to foreign nations, it was considered a huge shame and embarressment. One of the things the Chinese Communist Party promised to the people was to reclaim all lands lost by the Ching Dynasty and regain their pride. Taiwan is the last piece of the puzzle. </p>

<p>(Just to let you guys know, the Manchus ruled Taiwan for 8 years before the end of the Sino-Japanese War, the only 8 years Taiwan was under the rule of a mainland China-based government).</p>

<p>I'll let you guys argue about the military bases. Taiwan is located in at a very strategic location. It's understandable for other countries to want it. The Dutch occupied it for 38 years, from 1624-1662, for that reason.</p>