“……scores…….”
Key.
Recs are hard to discuss but very scary.
I sent one kid through the process at an elite high school.
And one kid through the process at a “regular” public high school.
The public school has caps on number of recs written by each teacher and the teachers seem bothered and slow with the process.
The elite private school teachers bring the kids in and sit with them for lots of time to understand the process etc.
Just one example in an isolated case - but very very scary and demonstrably not equal.
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Just remembered to inform it today 
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do you know when the waves will start/come?
Lots of good conversations that is going to put this thread over 4,000 soon 
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But in reality the schools need certain types of students. But the recommendations and lor do count. Don’t assume they were all outstanding … How they are written is important. A kid with great everything but kinda template recommendations won’t do as well as a kid with good everything but outstanding rec could score higher.
Michigan wants to see kids that are hardworking as stated above. That is why upward trend is so important and still doing good with senior grades that you all sent it is so important. A kid with all As with no upward trend then maybe they look more for rigor and Ecs etc.
So many different things.
Years ago I went to a Tufts school presentation. They put up actually cases and how they review them. It was Tufts, Northwestern, Brown and Vanderbilt actually. Each of the AOs went through their process and by show of hands the audience is got to score the 5 different applicants. The kid that worked a job a few days after school, had good grades, did some ecs scored much higher then the students with great everything. Each schools reason was interesting but they were all looking for a certain type of students. It was actually fascinating. It was very eye opening that the most Aps don’t win. It was the complete package of what the students did that made the better students at these Universities.
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also i went test optional because i didn’t have a choice, have other test optional kids been admitted?
We will have a similar experience.
DD22 is at a selective NYC public. Other 3 dcs at NYC elite private. The public is selective, but still at the core, an NYC public school where teachers are not obliged to write anyone recommendation It’s well known that some never write any and that the counselors don’t know many kids well. But you have to take it in context. The kids mainly apply to the same schools, so what the counselor or teacher does for one, they probably do for many. In that context, only the letters with warning signs or the cure-cancer-while-homeless ones stand out. So it doesn’t matter.
At the elite private, I see a pattern emerging in 9th grade. The school keeps a good record of my children starting in 9th grade, and teachers consult and speak with the counseling department all the time. I’m sure the LORs are beautifully composed. Does it matter? Maybe not, because the kids from elite private are read together (I think). The kids all apply to the same schools, so for all this effort, only the warning signs letters and outstanding ones stand out.
You say so often that you love data, but you tend to make so many statements that are devoid of statistical evidence.
A true test optional school will make a decision about a test optional applicant without any penalty for not submitting scores. What does this mean in practice? It means that a test optional applicant needs to be the equivalent in ALL other respects to a test-submitting applicant who is accepted.
You can NOT point solely to admit rates for test-submitting applicants vs. admit rates for test optional applicants and say that scores are always preferred. A major reason that test optional admit rates were lower last year was because many of those applicants were kids who decided to throw a Hail Mary at schools where they normally would not have applied. T20 schools saw a huge uptick in applicants who felt emboldened by high WGPAs to try for reach schools. These kids often did not have the rigor, ECs, or some other part of the application that the test-submitting applicants did.
Test optional students can and do get accepted to top schools when the whole of their application matches that of a typically admitted student to that university. My younger child was test optional at all schools and went 6/6 in early and rolling admissions. Not only that, where my 2022 overlapped on schools with an older sibling, she received more merit from each school.
This is the case for true test optional schools. Michigan was pretty clear last year that they were test flexible and not test optional, so their results can’t be seen through the same lens. But if you talk to an AO from a school that had been test optional pre-pandemic, they will tell you that a lack of test scores does not given them the kind of pause that you are claiming. If they see that a student has performed well academically in a rigorous curriculum, particularly at a school they know, the lack of scores is not a concern because the applicant has proven that they can handle the course work whereas a test score only proves that they have the capacity to test well on a given day.
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Lots of kids. But you do you. Hopefully you accept and go to Michigan
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i will happily go if i get in, i was one of the applicants who was also postponed
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All great points.
The data is listening and watching stats here. Clearly not scientific.
I want to see the post of two kids from the same school with virtually identical stats where the test optional kid got in and the test kid at 1400+ did not.
Exactly. These LOR are not all created equally. Some just check a box and offer little insight or reinforcement for the student.
Also, with some colleges really getting into the weeds, it’s not just your relationship with the teacher that may shine through but the subject they teach also should align with what major/area you are applying to.
For example, it’s usually recommended the recs come from core courses like math, science, English, or an AP, but if I have a student applying as Spanish major, I am highly recommending they get their AP Spanish teacher to write a LOR. It’s surprising how often this component of the app is underestimated and just assumed that it was helpful to their application.
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I feel that you are both saying the same thing.
Do you agree that taking AP classes and not submitting scores is trouble for your chances?
Exactly! Even a lower test score or subject scores won’t hinder your chance of admissions. It’s the whole package that counts with some luck thrown in. That is why people see kids with lower GPA /scores etc get in compared to some Rockstars that don’t. Something spoke to the reviewers on that date and time. Regardless of how they review the kids overwhelming do great at Michigan. They must have a clue to what their doing… "
DD22 is stuck on Ross. I would be ecstatic if she went even if not Ross.
At every stage of child rearing, and school (nyc is like a blood sport), it got easier with each kid and experience. We joke about it all the time. Youngest dc is an active participant in college conversations and I say just take the checkbook and make it out to Baruch.
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i wouldn’t think so, from what i’ve heard, AP scores are only in consideration when you go to sign up for classes. the score itself will determine how many credit hours/what you need to take for GE’s unless michigan is different
Hello everyone
It seems like this discussion about who gets accepted vs postponed, etc. is going in circles. And IMHO this contentious debate isn’t helping most participants of this thread.
Maybe time to move on, and focus on questions admitted and postponed applicants might have regarding next steps?
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Ahh man!! Now you are kicking us when we are down.
My daughter is an aspiring math major and loves math.
Sadly, her AP Cal teacher who she made 95+ for two years was “full” on recs and would not add one.
I think this is a major weakness / inconsistency in her app.
By the way, I pulled the elite private school trick and begged the teacher and the head of school - they both laughed and said sorry.
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I feel your pain. I asked for one tiny phone call to ED and was ignored. DD22 was mortified.