Musicmom, I do not have a great deal of experience with Yale, but I have visited the campus several times between 1991 and 2004. I found the campus pleasing aesthetically, but I did not find the campus environment appealing. It was just a gut feeling based on the people I met and the general feel of the school. I also did not like New Haven at all…I much prefer Ann Arbor.
“FWIW, I did my grad school at Michigan and I know it’s a great school. I just find these two schools quite different in the experience offered to the students.”
That is my point exactly. Some may prefer Yale to Michigan while others may prefer Michigan to Yale. While Yale is clearly one of the top 5 universities in the US, Michigan is not far behind. For the vast majority of students considering those two universities, assuming money is not a concern, Yale is the way to go. However, some may prefer Michigan significantly to Yale, and choosing Michigan in such a case is not detrimental to the student’s academic experience or future.
D faced the exact same question 10 years ago. She went to and graduated from Yale. Absolutely loved it!
Biggest deciding factors - (i) smaller school, (ii) residential college system and (iii) less emphasis on NCAA athletics.
Where did she end up? Michigan medical school.
D loved New Haven and now loves Ann Arbor.
“Michigan bought 1,700,000 sq/ft from Pfizer…pretty much state of the art labs and now home to a giant health policy institute…one of the largest in the country.”
Yale bought the 1 million + sq./ft from Bayer…pretty much the same thing as M’s purchase of the Pfizer property.
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses. I am so relieved that not one of you said “It’s a no-brainer.” You would not believe how many times I have heard that–from both sides! (i.e. “It’s a no-brainer–Take the money!” or “It’s a no-brainer–You DON’T turn down Yale!”) The reality is that there is nothing simple about this.
Full disclosure–I am a U of M alum. (I had to laugh at the derisive comments about football–I LOVE Michigan football! I had a wonderful experience there. My one beef with the school was the advising (or, total lack thereof.) But, this was 30 years ago (@blue85, it seems we share a graduation year.) My best friend and I laugh about how it’s a miracle we ever completed our degrees, with little parent involvement, no advising, and no computers! But, I think D’s experience would be much different, being a Shipman Scholar and in LSA Honors. And, the fact that she is extremely focused on what she wants to major in.
Which brings me to another point: Michigan has a true Neuroscience major, where Yale does not. She would major in Psychology/Molecular Bio.
Those of you who asked “Is Yale the dream school?” hit on a very important point. No, it is not. She was rejected REA from her dream school in December (that heartbreaker in California that starts with S. We don’t say that name anymore.)
I think the thing that makes this so hard is that the Ivy League is so ingrained in our society to equal excellence. As in “My D had an Ivy-League high school career.” Yes, yes she did.
So, still crunching numbers, thinking, and yes, @viphan, if the numbers work, the final decision will be hers.
"My one beef with the school was the advising (or, total lack thereof.) But, this was 30 years ago (@blue85, it seems we SHARE a graduation year.) "
Advising is hit or miss. My advisor was excellent, although I did not take full advantage of her experience. All the students I knew were assigned advisors. Some met their advisors frequently, others sporadically (like me) and yet others never. But we all had the option to meet with our advisors as often as we wished. Same with faculty office hours. I never had to wait to met a professor during my four years at Michigan. They all had open door policies and encouraged students to drop in during their office hours.
“I think the thing that makes this so hard is that the Ivy League is so ingrained in our society to equal excellence.”
That is definitely true, especially among high school students and concerned parents who wish to maximize their children’s chances of beating out the competition in today’s competitive world. Thankfully, Michigan is no slouch in the reputation department, particularly in academic circles. In fact, within academe, Michigan’s reputation matches that of all the Ivies save HYP and arguably Columbia. But even among the masses, Michigan seems to do well reputationally. According to a Gallup poll conducted in 2003, Michigan was 8th among the masses and 5th among people with advanced degrees. So while Yale may have the edge, Michigan is certainly very well regarded.
“But, this was 30 years ago (@blue85, it seems we share a graduation year.)”
Well, I admit to the year but I refuse to do the math on it. Good luck to your daughter: any kid who is interested in how the mind works and how people think is likely to find themselves with a great career and with a deep connection to humanity. Congratulations to you for raising such a child.
Actually excanuck, CC makes much of the vaunted FA programs at private universities, and justifiably so. However, the fact is, for students from upper middle income families and lower upper income families ($200K-$300K/year), attending expensive private universities is usually cost prohibitive. They do not qualify for FA, and yet they do not earn enough to spend $250k on each child’s college education, especially if that child has law school or medical school aspirations. Lower-middle income families (under $150k/year) definitely get great deals and high income families ($500k or more per year) can easily afford to cost of attendance. But those stuck in the middle, and they make up a nice chunk of college-bound students, must either sacrifice a great deal or seek alternative options.
One question I’d want to determine is how committed the kid is to the neuroscience/STEM path. And is med school a consideration? Strong commitment and motivation and if she’s so good that she’d definitely get in to med school/PhD program and go makes a free ride at UMich more justifiable.
I’m of the opinion that Yale would provide advantages, but I’m of the opinion that Yale would give a bigger boost to a kid who is a marginal med school/PhD candidate (over sink-or-swim UMich) or the smart slacker type or someone undecided (at Yale, she could suddenly change her mind and make the decision to pursue Wall Street junior year; at UMich, if she did so junior year, without being in Ross, that would be a much tougher path). Someone who is smart, driven, and awesome in every way and does not swerve from her goals will do well at either UMich or Yale regardless of what the advising at UMich is like. The greater hand-holding and flexibility at Yale would be of more benefit to someone who isn’t so driven or committed or awesome, IMO.
To expound on this more, if your D got in to Yale and got the full-ride scholarship from UMich, she’s probably already pretty awesome. So the key questions are whether she will stay committed to her field and stay motivated. If she will on both counts, it seems very likely that she’ll be able to go as far at UMich as at Yale (if she’s one of the top students in her field at UMich, I don’t think she’d have to worry about advising, and in any case, if you’re one of the top students in any STEM field at UMich, advising, hand-holding, and all that won’t really matter; you’re going to do well) and the big chunk of money spent on Yale likely won’t get you/her much tangible benefit. Plus, honors and Shipman should get her a lot of the fuzzy hand-holding stuff that Yale would give.
I do believe that if you’re going to drop beaucoup bucks on Yale, you should do so because you’re getting something tangible in return (like the ability to more easily switch to Wall Street as the goal or something like that). NOT because other people think HYPSM is the height of excellence or something silly like that. Tell me: would you drop $230K on a Lambo because some chicks and old men dig that car? I don’t know about you, but I’m not the type who’s swayed in to spending a ton of dough just to pander to other people’s opinions and conceits.
BTW, I think that those folks who understand college admissions would regard winning one of those big scholarships like the Shipman/Stamp at UMich or Jefferson at UVa to be as prestigious as getting in to HYPSM.
The reason for that is simple: about 2K get accepted in to each of HYPS each year (some in to more than 1, but not actually that many) while a little over 1K get in to MIT. However, only a handful (less than 100 at each school) get those big named scholarships at Duke/JHU/Rice/UMich/UVa/ND and 200 get the Regents/Chancellors at Cal.
Far fewer get one of those big named scholarships at an Ivy-equivalent/near-Ivy than in to HYPSM.
For that reason (and because the opportunities at the those schools will be close if not the same as the opportunities at HYPSM), I regard those folks who turn down one of those full-tuition scholarships at Duke to be full-pay at HYPSM (unless they are filthy rich and especially if it’s not H or S or maybe M) as batty. I regard those who turn down those big scholarships to JHU/Rice/UMich/UVa/ND to be full-pay somewhere else (again, unless they have a very specific goal, like break in to Silicon Valley VC) as close to batty.
But PurpleTrain, isn’t someone who is admitted into Michigan and Yale going to be smart and driven? I cannot imagine many slackers getting into to very selective schools.
I definitely agree that a student at Michigan must plan better. For example, if a student really wishes to work on Wall Street (or in any corporate job, including management consulting and leadership development programs at Fortune 500 companies), they will have to make a conscious decision to apply to Ross at the end of Freshman year. Ross students are probably in as good a position (certainly not significantly worse) as Yale students to land a job in such corporate settings, but not LSA students. That is not to say that LSA students do not do well; indeed, I saw a report recently that rated LSA among the top 30 colleges/universities for students seeking work, which is impressive considering that many of the schools ahead of Michigan LSA did not have programs like Ross or a top 10 CoE cannibalizing on job opportunities. However, Yale students will definitely be presented with more ample opportunities than LSA students.
I do not think Yale presents any edge to premed students. The resources and opportunities open to undergraduate students at Michigan for research/publishing papers and medical internships are exceptional. But again, as you point out, the student must actively seek those opportunities out.
@Alexandre, kids may change. I am in no position to judge how likely the D is to slack off or to not be proactive or change focus; I’m just saying that, arguably, Yale provides an advantage to someone who does (but virtually none to someone who’s driven, proactive, and focused). And with the Shipman, a lot of that fuzzy stuff will be there at UMich as well. So at this point, paying for Yale is kind of like paying for a Lambo. Other than the pleasure of saying your D goes to Yale (instead of the pleasure of saying your D got the Shipman at UMich; and as I stated before, other people may be different, but I have more respect for someone who has the sense to take a full-ride named scholarship at UMich than someone who turns that down to be full-pay at Yale), I’m not sure what you get from it.
Concerning jobs, getting to the Street would be tougher for someone in LSA but not Ross (or Yale) but I’m frankly not convinced that those F500 rotational programs are harder to get in to from LSA than from Ross or Yale.
As for pre-meds, I’m talking about someone who is a marginal candidate. Someone who is at the top of the heap at UMich will almost certainly do well, but with a ton of pre-meds at UMich, will a marginal candidate get research opportunities or medical internships? Granted, a marginal candidate may not at Yale either (which also has a large percentage of pre-meds).
Some Yale factoids for comparison purposes:
Yale College Class of 2018 Freshman Class Profile
1,361 enrolled freshman
14% 1st generation students
52:48 Male:Female
12.2% Legacy Affiliation
50 US States and 57 countries represented
48% receiving financial aid with $43,520 average need-based scholarship for financial aid recipients
High schools attended - 60.2% public, 21.9% independent day, 9.1% boarding and 8.7% religious
ACT ranges - 32-36 74.5%, 27-31 23.9%, 31.4%, be low 27 1.6%
SAT ranges - Math 760-800 47.8%, 700-750 31.4%, 600-690 19.6%
Critical Reading 760-800 48.3%, 700-750 30.2%, 600-690 19.2%
Background - 9.8% African American, 19.7% Asian American, 11.8% Hispanic, 2.6% Native American,
62.5% White, 11.2% International
Hello all! OP here with Decision Day update. Before I get to her decision, responding to some previous posts since my last one. D is 100% committed to Neuroscience. Has been since 8th grade. Wants to do research and make great breakthroughs. No way in halibut would this one ever want to work on Wall Street, lol! I also don’t ever see her slacking off; she is way too Type A for that.
Now for the choice: She is taking the Shipman scholarship at Michigan! Among her reasons: 1. Michigan has her major and Yale doesn’t. 2. She loves the people she met at Shipman Weekend; already has a roommate. 3.She met a professor at Shipman Weekend that she wants to do research with. 4. She wants to be in the Michigan Marching Band! She comes from a high school with a top marching band, and it has been a huge part of her life. She wants to continue the tradition of training and excellence. And, last but not least, 5. She loves the modern decor and furniture at Alice Lloyd (where the Shipman Scholars live.) As opposed to those “Old” dorms at Yale. LOLOLOL! There’s no accounting for taste!
Thank you to all of you for your input on this thread. Some of our friends IRL have been very harsh in their opinions on this decision. It hurts. But we trust our D enough to know what is best for her.
We’re all human, but ask your friends if they’d go gaga over someone getting a Lamo/Bentley or buying a mansion. If they would, then you can just say that you have different values. If they truly believe that Yale would provide some advantage that UMich would not, you can lay out the cases that I and you have made and ask them where we are wrong. Likely, they would not be able to come up with anything, show their ignorance, and would be educated.
Selfishly, I’m really curious as to what they would say.
In any case, it’s your family, not their’s. I find it strange why anyone would care where other people’s children go to school.
I had a wonderful experience there. My one beef with the school was the advising (or, total lack thereof.) But, this was 30 years ago (