UMichigan Full Ride vs.Yale

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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billcsho, that was my point; admit rates generally impress high school students and parents seeking bragging rights. To high school students, NU is more prestigious than Michigan. I would never question that. Of course, as Michigan’s admit rate continues to plummet, that could change in the coming 5-10 years. I estimate that Michigan’s admit rate could drop to as low as 15% by 2020.

However, college professors/presidents, graduate school admissions committees, corporate recruiters etc…do not reference admit rates to determine prestige. They rely more on the quality of the institution (research, faculty, programs, facilities, resources, alumni accomplishments etc…) to establish a university’s prestige. That is why most reputational ratings conducted by academe rate Michigan and NU roughly the same.

So, among high school kids and boastful parents, NU is more prestigious than Michigan. But among highly educated people (particularly people with advanced degrees, members of academe ec…), and among corporate recruiters, Michigan and NU are equally prestigious.

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@Alexandre, NU is considered more prestigious by many adults (most of whom aren’t in academia). You also have to differentiate between undergrad and grad. What I said holds even more true when you consider only the undergraduates (even among academia). Look, UMich offers terrific opportunities and the cream of the crop there are as good as anywhere, but its also a giant school with more variation in the student body than most elite privates. People understand that.

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"NU is considered more prestigious by many adults (most of whom aren’t in academia). "

Sure PurpleTitan…and there are many adults who consider Michigan more prestigious than NU. By and large, the two are equally prestigious. But the opinion of those adults hardly matters. Most adults who are ignorant enough to differentiate between those two amazing universities are not really in a position to admit students into graduate programs or to hire candidates into major companies.

“Look, UMich offers terrific opportunities and the cream of the crop there are as good as anywhere, but its also a giant school with more variation in the student body than most elite privates. People understand that.”

I don’t. Perhaps you can explain how the “variations” in the student body at Michigan influences the prestige of the school. Most universities earn their reputation through the strength of their faculties, quality of their facilities, accomplishments of their alumni etc… In this regard, Michigan is clearly among the top universities in the nation. And how large a variation are we talking about? Last year’s Freshman class at Michigan had mid 50% ACT/SAT ranges not unlike those at Brown, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn.

Mid 50% ACT:
Brown 30-34
Cornell 29-33
Michigan 30-34
Northwestern 31-34
Penn 31-34

Mid 50% SAT:
Brown 1330-1550
Cornell 1330-1510
Michigan 1280-1480
Northwestern 1390-1560
Penn 1360-1550

So, is the variation significant enough to make Michigan’s student body inferior? And if so, does it impact prestige sufficiently to make Michigan significantly less prestigious?

http://www.brown.edu/about/administration/institutional-research/sites/brown.edu.about.administration.institutional-research/files/uploads/CDS_2014-2015_0.pdf

http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000563.pdf

http://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/cds/cds_2014-2015_umaa.pdf

http://enrollment.northwestern.edu/pdf/common-data/2014-15.pdf

http://www.upenn.edu/ir/Common%20Data%20Set/UPenn%20Common%20Data%20Set%202014-15.pdf

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@Alexandre, the quality of the student body also matters when it comes to university reputation (and affects the quality of the alumni).

There not a big difference these days, but there is a difference, and that shows up in alumni achievements:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1682986-ivy-equivalents.html

UMichs alums do well, but on a per capita basis, they’re just below the Ivies (while NU is within the range of the Ivies; granted, on the lower end with the “lesser” Ivies; interesting aside: in terms of alumni achievement, the low end of the Ivies is set not only by Cornell but also UPenn and Columbia, even though these days, kids seem to think that those 2 are almost HYPSM-status).

Not a big difference, but not exactly the same either.

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PurpleTitan, 1. I am not sure I agree that alumni accomplishment have such a tangible impact on a university’s prestige or reputation, and if it does, it should be the collective accomplishments of the alumni body that impact a university’s reputation on an absolute scale, not on a relative scale. In other words, the greater the number of alumni accomplishing great deeds, the greater the reputation of the school among the masses. On an absolute scale, Michigan beats virtually all universities save a handful. On a relative scale, Michigan will match Northwestern and several other private elites. You are completely incorrect in your assertion that NU alumni, on average, accomplish more than Michigan alumni.

Using your four criteria for alumni accomplishments, Michigan matches NU PurpleTitan. If you think that NU produces a higher rate of exceptional alumni, you are sadly mistaken:

PERCENTAGE ENTERING ELITE GRADUATE SCHOOLS:
Not many elite schools publish such figures, but with the exception of NU and Chicago graduate schools (Michigan makes up much of the ground lost with its own elite graduate schools, which enroll an unusually high number of Michigan alums), Michigan holds its own nicely against NU.

For example, Michigan currently has 11 alumni enrolled at Yale Law school, compared to 10 NU alumni. I realize Michigan has 3 times as many undergraduate students, but only about twice as many prelaw students. There are roughly 60 NU alumni enrolled at Chicago and NU law schools combined (compared to 40 Michigan alums), but then you have roughly 150 Michigan alums enrolled at Michigan law school (compared to 20-30 from NU and Chicago). Michigan has enrolled roughly twice as many undergraduate alums into UVa Law school as NU undergraduate alumni.

http://www.yale.edu/printer/bulletin/pdffiles/law.pdf
http://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/admissions/Pages/faq-charts.aspx#studentbodydist (just close to pop up security window)
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class17.htm
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class16.htm
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class15.htm
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class14.htm

Not many medical schools publish the undergraduate origins of their students, but the two that do give Michigan a slight edge; Johns Hopkins Medical School currently has 11 Michigan alums compared to NU’s 5. Michigan Medical School, admittedly favors its own, currently has over 200 Michigan alums compared to fewer than 20 NU alums. Again, while Michigan has three times as many undergraduate students as NU, Michigan typically has twice as many premeds as NU.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/students/academics/catalog/SOMCat1112.pdf
http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/md-program/people-places/class-profiles
http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/md-program/people-places/class-profiles/2013
http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/md-program/people-places/class-profiles/2012
http://medicine.umich.edu/medschool/education/md-program/people-places/class-profiles/2011

Also, since 2000, 8 Michigan alumni have gone on to earn PhDs in Physics from Harvard. That’s as many as Chicago alumni, and more than Cornell alumni. Northwestern has produced none (zero). Do not let Michigan’s overall size advantage fool you. Chicago and Cornell have as many undergraduate Physics majors as Michigan.

https://www.physics.harvard.edu/academics/phds

Like I said, there aren’t many programs that actually list the undergraduate origins of their graduate students, but those that do seem to indicate that Michigan holds its own sufficiently for it not to be considered inferior to Northwestern.

PRODUCTION OF AMERICAN LEADERS (undergraduate alumni only):
Michigan does well here.

Presidents:
Michigan:
Gerald Ford

Northwestern:
None

Billionaires (still living)
Michigan (11):
Kenneth Dart
Stanley Druckenmiller
Henry Engelhardt
Brad Keywell
Eric Paul Lefkofsky
Hank Meijer
Tom Monaghan
Charlie Munger
Larry Page
Stephen Ross
Samuel Zell

Northwestern (5):
William Cook
Lester Crown
Barbara Carlson Gage
Peter Peterson
Patrick Ryan

Nobel Laureates/Fields Medalists:
Michigan (6)
Hugh Politzer, Physics
Robert Shiller, Economics
Stephen Smale, Fields Medal in Mathematics
Richard Smalley, Chemistry
Samuel Ting, Physics
Thomas Weller, Medicine

Northwestern
None

Michigan also has a clear advantage over Brown, Dartmouth, Penn and, shockingly, even Princeton and Stanford in this criterion.

Fortune 500 CEOs
Michigan (4)
Richard Lesser, Boston Consulting Group
Larry Page, Google
Thomas Wilson, Allstate
Greig Woodring, Reinsurance Group of America

Northwestern (1)
Ginny Rometty (IBM)

ACADEMIC AWARDS:
Michigan has produced 410 Fulbright Scholars since 1990. NU has produced an impressive 270 in that same period. Overall, Michigan has produced 75 Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, Goldwater and Churchill scholars, compared to NU’s 55. While in both cases, NU produced a higher rate, it is not significant.

PERCENTAGE GETTING PHD:
Again, I fail to see the relevance. But in the case of Michigan vs Northwestern, there is no advantage one way or the other. According to the National Science Foundation, in the 10 year period from 2002-2011, Michigan produced 2,200 PhDs in the Sciences and Engineering, compared to Northwestern’s 950 (roughly 5% for both schools). That is not bad mind you. Even schools like Brown, CMU, Cornell, Dartmouth, JHU and even Stanford have 6%-8% PhD production rates.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/

66

In addition to the metrics mentioned by Alexandre, Michigan also has a large number of graduates who have won: the MacArthur, the Guggenheim, and the Sloan fellowship. The Sloan fellowship is notable in that a comparatively high percentage of Nobel prizes are won by folks who have first won the Sloan, so Michigan may have a few future Nobelists out there…

67

Anyway, we have skewed long enough. The OP’s daughter chose Michigan over Yale for the right reasons and I am sure she will spend four amazing years in Ann Arbor. I am closing this thread as it is no longer necessary to keep it active.