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<p>It doesn’t have to be overt, they can just tell themselves “we’re giving this kid a chance”. The impact to the next player is the same as if they planned it.</p>
<p>^^^vince, yup. See how we all pin our hopes on the outliers?</p>
<p>bovertine, we are not expecting a coach’s tip. At all. He is not a star athlete, and S is not deciding on a school based on his sport. The coaches he’s talked to made it clear they’d love to have him play if he gets admitted, and feel that the combo of his sport and his grades/scores would give him a good shot at acceptance.</p>
<p>Are we counting on it? Heck no. Is his list ratcheted up in anticipation of a hook? No way. His list is based on schools that are strong in his intended major, that he likes, and where he has a chance of getting in.</p>
<p>Here’s an excerpt of today’s NY Times Guidance Office post from the Harvard Dean of Admission. It is a timely response to the essay question upthread.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We evaluate essays in the context of students’ transcripts, comments from teacher recommendations, any academic accomplishments that indicate unusual promise, or even by examining how the application essays compare to the essays on the SAT or ACT writing exam. </p>
<p>We look for, as Phil Smith (former dean of admissions at Williams) put it many years ago, internal consistency.</p>
<p>Writing a great essay cannot lead to admission if the rest of the application is not at the same level. What students achieve on a day-to-day basis during high school is far more compelling. But the essay provides an opportunity for students to tell colleges about something that is important to them, perhaps something that will not be found in other parts of the application.</p>
<p>One of the great clich</p>
<p>quote:</p>
<hr>
<p>Why wouldn’t they encourage people to apply? </p>
<p>“You’re a 3.6/2000? Well, we like to look at the overall candidate, not just reduce you to a set of numbers”.</p>
<p>Basic game theory says that it’s in their best interest to accept a few unhooked 3.5/1900s. So long as we, the parent/applicant, can point to someone getting in with those stats, we can convince ourselves we have a chance, that we will be the exception. </p>
<p>“Why not give it a shot? What’s $65 versus your child’s future? Step right up, no need to push, plenty of apps for everybody”.</p>
<p>unquote</p>
<hr>
<p>the above is probably mentioned half tongue in cheek, but I think this post is absolutely on the mark. They don’t have to say it so blatantly even in the privacy of their own company. They can all tell each other among the adcoms that they want to admit a few exceptional cases each year that allows them to “bet on the uncertain candidates” to “give them a chance”. these few cases serve as a source of inspiration for all the students and parents and provide the adcoms the cover to declare in clean conscience that they mean what they say (heck, who wants to get up in the morning everyday and proudly announce that s/he is going to go to work and spend the day fooling naive parents and doe eyed hopeful youngsters!!!).</p>
<p>So far so good, no real victims here: the schools maintain a high rank in the USNWR, the alumni are happy and the school authorities get bonuses. It will also make me happy for S1. He is already in the Top 10 school: Chicago was late in joining this ranking game, and they have a potential go up in rank if they start catching up with the Jonese in terms of selectivity and yield: they already have the academic reputation and excellence part down pad, and the selectivity number is easier to fix than the academic standing and faculty quality number which take a generation to fix. I am paying through the nose full pay. if this school goes up in perceived prestige over years to my son’s benefit, I am all for the school’s effort to up in rank: they are upping the ROI for me and my son.</p>
<p>However, there is a a sinister side of this whole game they are playing to encourage as many students as possible to apply so that they can reject more and further lower the acceptance rate. As long as the students and parents are also completely on the same page with the schools and apply to these schools the way the buy a lottery ticket, that’s fine. </p>
<p>The problem is, if this game fools a few parents and students into thinking that there is a realistic chance of their kids with 3.6 and below GPA getting into any one of them, this may encourage them to apply to ALL these schools through the RD/unrestricted EA because they want to cast their net wider. I started a thread on ED acceptance rate boost. Read the replies there. It appears that some schools within T20 clearly seems to give a boost to ED. For some of our kids on this thread, ED application may be a only strategy to realistically boost the chance of making it to T20. However, if we all buy into this “I know so and so with sub 3.6 GPA in Northwestern and Cornell and others who made it Harvard with no hook and comparable stats”, and stay “properly inspired” by the adcoms who claim that they “wholisstically” assess their candidates, we will want to apply to all of these schools and miss the “one real opportunity (ED)” to boost the chance for ours kids.</p>
<p>This is an example of how all this “feel good inspirational story” game has a real negative consequences for the students and parents since it has a very high opportunity cost levied on them to the benefit of the schools who play this game. There are even stories of kids with good stats who were rejected by every single school they applied to!</p>
<p>I would encourage everyone to apply. By installing a very simple computer program to filter out 80% of applicants and print out automatic rejection letters, it would be a very nice chunk of change for a college. At $70 a pop, with 20,000 applicants, rejecting 80% of them automatically, that’s extra $1.1 mil revenue. If number of applicants could be increased to 25,000, that’s another 300000. They could do all this without increasing staff.</p>
<p>I also think that the post from vinceh is on the mark. </p>
<p>Yes, the elite schools play this to their advantage, but ask ourselves this - would we rather face the certainty that there will be no sub 3.6 admitted? Would it be a relief to us and our children that we can now just focus on the sub T20s, or a heartbroken disappointment to know that we can’t even apply?</p>
<p>In our case, we’ll still apply and let the adcoms keep their advantage. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!</p>
<p>On a completely separate note, I noticed that this thread was viewed more than a thousand times a day and yet there are only a few of us post here. If you have a kid with a profile fitting this thread, or if you have experienced what we are going through, please join us. It is much better to actively participate than to just sit on the sideline.</p>
<p>Btw, it took me a while on CC to figure out how to do the “fancy” formatting and emoticons. Here are links to useful faqs. Happy posting!</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/misc.php?do=bbcode]Formatting[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/misc.php?do=bbcode]Formatting[/url</a>]</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/misc.php?do=showsmilies]Emoticons[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/misc.php?do=showsmilies]Emoticons[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Now
everyone
*will be able to format *their posts and show emoticons, and I will **no longer **feel special. :(</p>
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<p>This is a very important question that got lost in lots of posts today. As parents filter through all this info and start getting an idea of what may be realistic reaches, many should be asking this question. </p>
<p>This is where you may decide your best strategy is to choose a lesser reach and apply ED. This is where a good counselor leads lots of applicants.</p>
<p>The 3.6/high SAT kids that are very unlikely to make an ivy may well get into a WashU ED but are unlikely to get in RD.</p>
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<p>I think that’s overly cynical. I think at one point, adcoms, being human, get tired of the endless parade of 4.0 GPA’s / perfect SAT’s / award-winning superkids who don’t even have time to sleep at night, and just want to “cleanse the palate” a bit on a kid who doesn’t seem like a super-programmed robot.</p>
<p>"
</p>
<p>Is it just basic game theory, though? Do these places REALLY want a campus full of 4.0 GPA’s / perfect SAT kids? That would just be as boring as a campus that was all-white, or all-suburban New York City, or all-biology majors, or all-[insert whatever criteria of your choice].</p>
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<p>From a game theory perspective, hyjeonlee, I think you’re saying that to discourage all of the rest of us from rolling the dice and having our kids apply top 20 so more room for your kid :-). Just kidding!!</p>
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<p>CD & hmom5 I agree with you that this is a very important point. </p>
<p>If the goal is to increase the chance of getting into a T20, then perhaps one should apply ED to a college on the lower end of T20s. However, that is not what my DS1 wants. </p>
<p>Would he be content with another T20 if he doesnt get accepted to his first choice? Sure. But, he wants to have the best shot at his top choice school. Will he change his mind? Dont know. I did remind him that by giving up on ED, he is risking not getting into any T20’s. I suspect a few parents here have kids with the same view.</p>
<p>mantori As a chartered member of this thread since page 1, you are very special!</p>
<p>Pizzagirl,</p>
<p>I know you are kidding, but seriously, my S2 has practically no chance to get into T20. I am looking for T30-60 range. </p>
<p>Besides, he is a junior. So, he is not a competitor to any of your kids 
:)</p>
<p>I am following this thread because it is so informative and a lot I learn can easily be applied to S2 to boost the chance that he will get into the best fit T30-60 for him. </p>
<p>Some of my posts reflect the fact that I too had all this unrealistic assessment last year with S1. He lucked out and got into Chicago so all ended well since I now know that that’s the best school for him. But now I realize that it could have gone easily the other way, and if that had happened, our total lack of any clue on how the games are being played at the T20 level could have resulted in a disastrous outcome. I sense many of us here may be repeating the same mistake I made.</p>
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</p>
<p>Is this the kind of situation where an honest answer to the “Tell us where else you’re applying” question would help? If the applicant shows a fully-developed list and the targeted school is at the top of the heap, does that send a message? </p>
<p>An established relationship between the high school and the target college might be another avenue. Having the counselor make a pitch for a student, or tell an adcom that a particular student is highly interested, could be a slight tip. I’ve been poking around to find out what colleges have this kind of understanding with D1’s school. </p>
<p>ED for a reach probably won’t be in the cards for D1 if she continues to want a UC. More game theory musings: what if you could be reasonably sure that your student wouldn’t be accepted during ED, but would be deferred to RD? That would give the student the advantage of clearly demonstrating interest without having to actually make the commitment. No way would I sign up for that, but it’s an interesting theoretical issue.</p>
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<p>hyeonjlee - Your many excellent posts really contributed to this thread being “informative”. Thank you.</p>
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<p>Let’s remember 40% of the class at these schools are hooked, so the schools are not full of perfect stats kids by any stretch of the imagination. They have lots of well rounded, lower scoring/grades kids in this group already. </p>
<p>The unhooked need to pull up the stats.</p>
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<p>Someone should write a book. I personally know several kids who have this story–great kids who were rejected from all other top schools but got into Chicago.</p>
<p>A few years ago one of my DD’s friends, a brilliant girl with beyond great ECs, was sadly rejected by many schools. She had a few too many Bs, but the counselors really pushed for her and her community service was truly unusual. </p>
<p>Everyone at the school who had been accepted at Chicago had gotten their packages the day before and she had gotten nothing so assumed rejection. It looked like it was end game but then an acceptance arrived from Chicago where she is very happy:)</p>
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<p>Precisely. In another thread some time ago, it was discussed that because of this, in the T20 range, a match for an unhooked applicants is NOT the statistical median, but rather 75% for most of the stats (GPA, SAT, etc).</p>
<p>Hey: the formatting worked!!! thanks PCP!!!</p>
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<p>in my S1’s case, it was he who upped the stats for the school, but he had no ECs to speak of: did not work, did not volunteer, did not win any institutional awards, did not play sports, did not perform in play, write a poem, draw a painting, or play any instrument. Was not an officer in student gov bodies either. Started a small investment club, but it was a minor thing. His EC was spending hours and hours voraciously reading on his own in the area of his passion. Later people told me that that quality (reading voraciously) was something chicago valued. However, I highly doubt if they would have been so forgiving if his stats were not so stellar. </p>
<p>In short, from the top 10’s general perspective, he was a flawed candidate, but we had NO idea of how unrealistic we were given he is an antithesis of a hook (I call it anti-hook) . We thought Berkeley (OOS) and Cornell were safeties (can you imagine?). That’s why I shudder to think what would have happened if he had not gotten Chicago EA. </p>
<p>Just like my S1 was a flawed candidate in the T10 range due to his EC issue, other unhooked kids with terrific ECs with sub par GPA may fall into this category. We need to be very realistic. Reach for the stars, by all means. But, don’t let it get in the way of shooting for a realistic, doeable reward. If getting into T20 is very important, then a “doeable reach” through ED may be the best strategy, rather than casting the net wider with 20 RD/EA applications all with dismal chances.</p>
<p>One of the best thread !!!</p>