<p>
I would think a student like this would not have that hard a time getting into a top 20 school. Sort of on the upper-cusp of this thread, especially considering the school. I would think in a school that send 40 or 50% plus of it’s grads to top 20 schools, all bets are off.</p>
<p>But I guess this year is ultra competitive.</p>
<p>Manotori – congrats on the Danforth Scholarship nomindation!</p>
<p>Here is another DNA analysis ;).</p>
<p>Re: Peer Effects in Higher Education </p>
<p>Talked about rising (or falling) to the level of your peers! </p>
<p>Here is an interesting 2003 article from Williams College. The study was based on data collected on three selective colleges for the class of ’93. The average SAT (verbal + math) scores ranged from 1344 to 1409, putting the average student in the top 10% of all test takers.</p>
<p>Excerpt from the abstract:
</p>
<p>And in the conclusion, which combined this study with similar studies done on three other colleges, e.g., Dartmouth and Williams -
</p>
<p>This article confirmed my thoughts on the impact of having or not having high caliber students around my son. This is perhaps the biggest reason that I’d like my son to attend a highly selective college.</p>
<p>[Peer</a> Effects in Higher Education]( <a href=“http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/DPs/DP-64.pdf]Peer”>http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/DPs/DP-64.pdf)</p>
<p>PCP - when students from our high school regret going to a lower-ranked school for the merit money, it is generally because they are unable to find friends or cannot “fit in” with most other students. If they are bored with the academics, they can always take graduate courses , move directly into upper-class courses, and fill their time with research. But if they are treated badly in the dorm…</p>
<p>Some schools have honors dorms that go a long way towards making these students feel more comfortable, but it is still advisable to look into the size of the high-achieving cohort at any of these schools. At some schools with generous merit aid or well-regarded honors colleges, the size of this cohort can easily exceed that of a top LAC.</p>
<p>This “peer effect” was most profound for my daughter. She has had the same relative class position whether it was in our average public school, a private school for the gifted, or her current private school for the smart and/or really, really, really ridiculously rich. She rises to a certain place in relation to those around her. She was happiest at the gifted school – and this is a girl who watches every trashy reality tv show out there and reads PerezHilton.com and not the Economist. She has always felt more comfortable around smarter kids and so she’s focusing on schools that attract smart kids, regardless of the USNWR ranking.</p>
<p>
Let’s just say he’d be setting a new low on the Naviance chart. There’s only one other point with a similar or lower GPA (and much lower SAT) - I suspect it belongs to a URM. He’s not so far from the green cloud that it’s clearly ridiculous for him to apply, but I really don’t think his ECs will put him over the finish line.</p>
<p>My DS has his EA list (declaring engineering where choice of school required):</p>
<p>GA Tech
UIUC
UW-Madison
Purdue
UMich
UMinn
NC State
Ohio State
UColorado-Boulder</p>
<p>UNC-Chapel Hill (no engineeering, but my alma mater)</p>
<p>His RD list:
Wake Forest
Knox (DH alma mater) and really different size, composition, etc.</p>
<p>Six are completed, six are in the works.</p>
<p>Stats: 3.45 UW GPA, 34 ACT with 36 on Math, second ACT of 33 Comp with 36 on Math and 35 on Science. No engineering/science EC’s. Goes to large public, does not rank, but sends lots of kids to T20. He just kicked into gear in his jr year, when the “peer effect” in hs finally happened. </p>
<p>Thanks for all your comments on peer effect, food for thought for college, too. I want to show him these posts, but he thinks CC is the devil for getting me too excited, but I think it gives us perspective and maybe a cooler head.</p>
<p>^^^^ That looks like a good conservative list given that excellent ACT.</p>
<p>usamurry - your son should not have much problem getting accepted to most of the schools listed.</p>
<p>It seems the schools are all either matches or safeties. Is he not interested in any reaches? CMU and Tufts could be good reaches for him, since he is interested in engineering, finaid notwithstanding.</p>
<p>mantori - what interested your son about Colorado School of Mines?</p>
<p>I actually lived on its campus for two days about a year ago. It is a nice and quiet place. The students that I came into contact with were all very friendly.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments. Based on Naviance for his HS, Michigan is a huge reach. Our Naviance doesn’t have anything about UNC, but even as a legacy, we are counting that as a reach. (Our Naviance might not have anything on UNC because our DS was told by GC,“Don’t Bother”.) Wake waitlisted all three candidates from his HS, all with better stats than DS, according to Naviance. Oh, and Naviance is new this year, so only 2009 grads are included, so maybe we have one hand tied behind our back. </p>
<p>Thanks for the encouragement. We will do a bit of looking for RD.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Do these “better stats” include better ACT scores as well? If so, I am surprised.</p>
<p>Well, that really brings up my fundamental question for this thread. If DS is below and to the right of the green blob of acceptances on Naviance (lower GPA and higher ACT), and there are no green dots or red X close to my son’s stats, should we be optimistic or pessimistic? Should we just take a chance and send in the best app possible? Have you guys figured this out? I think that is why the poster in #1403 (northwestmom) asked to see what schools our kids are applying to–to get a sense of some more data points, in addition to the data points shown in Naviance.</p>
<p>Again, I really appreciate this thread.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A few things, and I’m not sure which ones he gave more weight to:</p>
<ul>
<li>another safety outside of our home state (which he’s not too fond of)</li>
<li>easy application (no essay or recs)</li>
<li>great location (near both mountains and a major city)</li>
<li>emphasis on environment/ecology in curriculum (this seems to be how Mines has rebranded itself for the 21st century)</li>
<li>lots of undergraduate research opportunities (a big selling point for him)</li>
</ul>
<p>
very interesting question. </p>
<p>There might not be much data on students of either high test score but not perfect GPA or not very high test score but near perfect GPA. I believe there have been plenty of discussions on CC about both groups. This particular thread could be counted, IMHO, about the discussion of the first group.</p>
<p>So, which group is the “stronger” group? A kid with 35 ACT and 3.5 GPA, or a kid with 30 ACT and 3.95 GPA. Assuming everything else being equal, which kid has a higher chance of getting into a T20?</p>
<p>
Ah USAMurray, that’s a question we ask ourselves too. I think you need to be both optimistic and pessimistic. Reach a bit high, but make sure there are safeties your child likes. The only thing I know for sure is you can’t get into a school you don’t apply to. It’s too bad your school didn’t enter a couple of year’s worth of data into Naviance. It’s more trouble, but it makes it more useful faster.</p>
<p>Based on available information elsewhere and the nice analysis by hyeonjlee on this thread, I am convinced that test scores play a bigger role in T20 admissions than what the adcoms of these schools would lead us to believe.</p>
<p>For Ivies, the initial screening seems to be based on AI, which is 2/3 weighted on test scores. If this is true, then having higher test scores would definitely get you more attention initially. My guess is, after making the AI based initial cut, strength of transcripts becomes a much more important factor for students in the big middle zone. It is tempting to surmise that other non-Ivy elites may also be using something similar to AI in their initial screening.</p>
<p>I suppose each college is different in its emphasis on other aspects of the app. My hope is that if our kids pass the initial cut, the combination of excellent EC’s, essays, LOR’s (& interviews, if offered) would restore the equity that was lost to their “low” GPA’s. There is no denying that our kids are starting at a big disadvantage.</p>
<p>It is important to note that the Naviance scattergrams are GPA based, it does not have information on class rigor. For those schools that report weighted GPA to Naviance, this problem is somewhat mitigated, but not completely. Our school, for example, reports unweighted GPA, so there is no way to know the class rigor of the “dots”.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If both kids make the initial cut, then I would say the edge goes to the higher GPA kid. But, depending on the “AI” used (if one is used at all), the higher GPA kid may not make the initial cut while the kid with the higher test scores may.</p>
<p>I’ve wondered why the class rank , gpa are the top measure for these schools. It is the most subjective part of their academic history. Easy teacher, hard teacher, grade inflation, grade deflation. the standardized tests are nationwide and aren’t subject to the whim of a particular school or teacher. Any thoughts</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Where did you get the formula? What is it?</p>
<p>I can find calculators but not the actual formula behind them, and I’m too lazy to try to figure it out from the calcs.</p>
<p>Question- So when peole apply under these early admissions plans, does that mean they get results in December or January?</p>
<p>Watching this: I have a 3.57 and applying to JHU.</p>
<p>Did best junior year, and doing really well senior.</p>