Undergrad Degree abroad

College Search & Selection
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Is there any forum here that is a general discussion of school options outside of the US where the instruction is in English?

I know about St Andrews of course, highly competitive etc, but looking for a range of school options. Right now my student (a junior in HS) just wants to “get out of the US”for college. I know that’s not a great way to decide where to apply to college, obviously she’s going to decide based on what the school offers academically and socially etc, but we need to start somewhere.

She’s a 4.0 student (the school doesn’t go beyond that because they don’t weight) who has won national awards for vocal jazz, but isn’t interested in a music degree, she’s ahead and strong in math, hasn’t taken any standardized tests because of Covid—her junior year psat was postponed then canceled.

She’s not one of these kids who has thrived during the pandemic, she’s just an average normal kid besides her musical talent , has kept up her grades with remote school but also hasn’t been motivated to go beyond that.

We have no idea if she is competitive anywhere but just wondering if there’s something on here where someone has listed all the options and/or shared their admissions journey. Or maybe CC is only geared towards US options? Thanks.

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Cost constraints?

It is fairly common for there to be discussion on (Anglophone) universities* in Canada (Toronto, McGill, UBC, etc.). Of course, international student tuition is higher than for Canadian students (and Québec universities have greater discounts for Québec students).

Other obvious places to look would be universities in other English-speaking places (e.g. UK, Australia, New Zealand). There are also English-speaking universities in Hong Kong, but if she wants to leave the US due to the political situation, then going to Hong Kong could be even more problematic on that front.

*Note: in Canadian terminology, “college” is usually used to mean a school more like a community college in the US, while “university” is the usual term for a bachelor’s degree granting school.

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Look into Dutch “University Colleges” - there’s even one for musicians (they get a BA or BS, but can add music to their studies).

In France, you have Sciences Po Reims, dedicated to Transatlantic relations (ie., politics, sociology, history, economics… applied to North America and Europe).
You also have ESSEX BBA, which is managementwith an international flavor.
Deadlines should be around now or in January.

In Scotland, the “ancient Four” (Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow, St Andrews) have met competition from excellent programs at Stirling, Strathclyde, Herriot Watt, and Edinburgh Napier. Edinburgh is a terrific city and the Stirling campus is very nice, too. Aberdeen is less competitive than St Andrews for Americans.

In Wales, Cardiff University is Russell Group. Relatively easy access. Rainy, mid weather year round, lots of attractions/visits.
Swansea U is in a small town by the sea.
In the UK, Durham could be of interest (it’s a “residential”/collegial university). UEA, Bristol, Bath, Exeter, Sussex, York, Loughborough, Nottingham, could be of interest if she wants traditional British universities. For a relatively prestigious university that neverheless has a less competitive access, there’s Queen’s Belfast. (Their international relations with Conflict&Resolution concentration is extremely strong, for obvious reasons!)
UCAS lets you apply to 5 universities only (and 1 major for all, for which you must describe your qualifications in a statement), mixing England, Scotland, and Wales. A good mix would be 3 Scottish universities, 2 from Cardiff, Bristol, Bath, Durham, York, Queen’s Belfast.
She’ll need SAT Subject test results (typically, 3, related to her future “course” ie., major, with 700+ where they want A Levels A or 600+ where they want A-Level B).
Deadline is Jan 15, 5pm British time.

Finally, Ireland has lots of universities, some preparing for a 3-year Bachelor’s degree (Level 7 degree) and some preparing directly for a 4-year Research Bachelor’s (Level 8, or “Honours”) preparing for a Master’s degree. You can “top off” you Level 7 degree with a Level 8 year. Maynooth’s Arts program is very easy access, basically a safety. Trinity Dublin is extremely selective. In between, you can check out CAO to search for “courses” (majors).

Scotland, Dutch University Colleges, ESSEC, Sciences Po, and Maynooth Arts will have several subjects in the first 2 years.
English, Welsh, Irish (NI and RI) degrees will be single subject or, at most, “joint” (ie., 2 subjects).

Canada: McGill, Concordia, UBC, Simon Fraser, Xavier, Mount Allison, Lethbridge, Bishop’s, are all topnotch, but very different. It’ll be very similar to grad school for undergrads at the former, and closer to public LACs at the latter.

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Unlike most overseas universities many Canadian schools do offer financial aid, both need based and merit based, to American students, most notably McGill.

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McDaniels College in Maryland has a program in Budapest. You can spend all four years in Budapest, but the offerings are limited. It might be worth a look. I don’t think it is very selective and the cost is reasonable.

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We live in a northern part of the US, so Canada was the obvious place for us to look. The price for international students varies quite a bit, but there are good schools where the cost for international students is comparable to in-state costs at public universities in the US. In my experience people in the US mostly think of about three or four Canadian universities, but there are more like 30+ that are worth considering for a straight A student. One issue is that admissions in Canada cares a LOT about high school GPA, so that having an unweighted 4.0 GPA will make admissions much easier compared to the US.

I briefly looked at the web pages for a few places in the UK, and found most of them to be more expensive. Someone I know years ago considered Melbourne for their PhD but their acceptance came after they had already decided to attend a good university in the US.

The one downside that I have noticed about having a child studying in Canada: There is no guarantee that they are going to return after graduation.

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Also, some of Canada’s most desired universities are huge, while Canada has a much smaller population than the US. So it is much more likely that there will be space for everyone or almost everyone who shows a top-end high school record, unlike in the US, where the number of students with top-end high school records greatly exceeds the capacity of the most desired universities in the US.

To put it in actual numbers, University of Toronto has about 73k undergraduate students. The population of Canada is about 38M. So 1 out of 520 of people in Canada is a University of Toronto undergraduate. Harvard has about 6.7k undergraduate students. The population of the US is about 328M. So about 1 out of 49k people in the US is a Harvard undergraduate. In other words, University of Toronto undergraduates are 94 times more common among people in Canada than Harvard undergraduates are among people in the US.

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A belated Thank You to all who replied (I have had trouble accessing CC on my phone since the “upgrade” and rarely get on CC on my laptop). Lots of good info, we will check it out.

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Really good summary of the options in these posts, but there are a couple of things to keep in mind:

  1. Most international universities will look mostly/entirely at standardized testing- APs are particularly useful. Outside of Canada and St Andrews GPA won’t count for much.

  2. In most cases, you apply directly into a major- and that is all (or nearly all) you study. Changing subjects (unless it is a really closely related subject) is typically hard. So: a student who knows what they want to study is in great shape; a student who is still sorting out what they want to study not so much. Courses are much more highly structured than in the US- in most instances there will be few (if any) optional courses in Year 1, and all the way through options will typically be from a comparatively short list. It is important to read the course descriptions very carefully- two courses with the same name can be surprisingly different at different universities. Fortunately, there is usually very detailed info available online.

  3. In all the international unis that I am familiar with, you are expected to be very independent, at every level.

  4. In most instances, ‘continuing assessment’ is little - or even none- of your mark. It is entirely normal for most or all of a student’s marks to be based entirely on the final exam. In many cases, the ‘class’ of degree (eg, 1st Class Honours / 2.1 / 2.2 in the British Isles) is based largely or even entirely on your final year marks- your marks in earlier years just qualify you to continue on. That suits some students really well- but others do better with lots of regular assignments.

  5. Prices vary a lot. The UK and Ireland use high international fees to make up for the limits of their state subsidies; many other countries have not had enough US students to make that an important revenue stream (yet). Pros/cons: lower tuition fees / less experience working with people unfamiliar with their system.

Doing undergrad abroad can be a great experience- but it is important to be clear about both costs and benefits. Even the most independent and well traveled kids I know, who ended up loving their international undergrad experience, had some very tough moments adjusting.

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The other answers give a good breakdown of the difficulties and differences of international study. I won’t repeat them. But as I’m from the UK, I can provide a general breakdown of perceptions around UK schools:

At the very top is Oxford, Cambridge, and the specialist London schools - the LSE (social sciences) and Imperial (STEM and medicine). University College London (UCL) is generally considered, in the UK, as the third best multi-faculty university in the UK. These 5 schools comprise the UK’s world class universities, known as the ‘golden triangle’. They have some of the largest proportion of US students in the UK. These are also the most popular schools for Marshall scholars.

Another popular destination for American students are the Scottish universities: namely, St Andrews and Edinburgh. Both based in picturesque small cities, St Andrews being magnitudes smaller than Edinburgh. Scottish universities operate a different schooling system to the English - they have 4 year degrees for one. But independent study is still stressed. At a similar level to these universities are: Kings College London; Durham; Manchester; Birmingham; Warwick; and Bristol. Durham is another small picturesque Oxford-style village; while Bristol is medium sized vibrant city (and a favourite of students) famous for its annual air balloon festivals.

All of the universities I’ve listed are top universities, with the golden triangle (Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial and UCL) being seen as a cut above the rest. These universities are generally more competitive, and usually expensive, than the other universities I described. AP’s are also a must for UK schools, with LSE and Oxbridge requiring a minimum of 5 5’s I believe.

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Also keep in mind that study abroad from the US is an option. Pretty much all American units/colleges have study-abroad programs these days. Some where you may take off to a foreign country sophomore year. Some where you may study in 2 (or possibly even 3) foreign countries.

So try to determine why she wants to go to college outside the US. Also where does she want to end up after graduation and where can she work.

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@ACUNI123, I would never argue that LSE and Imperial are at the level of Oxbridge.

Apart from that, your post is quite decent.

@raincat, if you read my posts in this thread you might get a big picture of UK universities and their respective competitiveness:

If she is not one of those who has thrived during the pandemic, then I would suggest she skips and avoids attending Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial because studying is intense (i.e. pressure cooker environment) at those schools and they are shaped for certain types of motivated nerds, which she obviously is not.

There are other prestigious UK schools she can attend though and move at her own determined pace.

It also appears there is no clarity yet on the degree she wants, all you have indicated is that she is strong in Maths.

Here is a link to another post of mine that highlights the most prestigious UK universities for studying Maths and also for some other degrees:

Hopefully these links helps give a comprehensive insight in regards to UK universities.