Univ of Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin , Texas

College Search & Selection
101

Some other things to consider if you can set aside the rankings - if she’s leaning toward business: for some schools, it’s a direct admit to to the business school. For others, like UNC, they have to apply at the end of their sophomore year. It’s extremely competitive these days to get into UNC’s Kenan Flagler - I believe I read a recent admit rate to be about 30%. The rest have to choose a back-up plan (bummer if they don’t like economics). At a place like UNC, everyone has the stats to get into KF, but many get denied. My older daughter is a UNC/KF graduate and it is an amazing program that gave her plenty of opportunities post-grad, BUT she busted her rear from the start in order to get there - and it wasn’t because she wasn’t qualified, it was because everyone else is also qualified (and some are the sons & daughters of CEO’s & CFO’s of national companies). It’s a bit easier at UGA, which has a higher admit rate to Terry (and a higher number of overall students in their business program).

My younger daughter chose to target direct admit business programs. She was admitted with merit to the business programs at UofSC, UTK, App State(NC) & Virginia Tech. She was also directly admitted to the business programs at NC State & FSU. In our research of the business program at FSU, there were concerns and some complaints about the amount of online learning during the first year of the business program. This apparently existed prior to Covid in an attempt to manage the large class sizes in the intro-business classes. Anecdotally, UF was also mentioned as having a fair amount of online business classes for the first-year students. Although not necessarily a negative, you might want to join the FB parent groups for both these schools and get more info. For us, this was definitely something that weighed in our decision, as we would have been full pay OOS for FSU and weren’t looking to do any more online classes than she already had (due to Covid).

One of the main things that attracted my younger daughter to target direct admit (albeit lesser ranked) programs was the ability to start taking business classes right away vs spinning her wheels in unrelated gen ed classes while she waits (and hopes) to be admitted to a b-school as a junior. She was also looking for a collaborative but challenging environment that wasn’t as cut-throat as a UNC (her impression of her sister’s experience). Even more important than all that, for her, was the right fit. Which school had the best overall environment in which she could see herself thriving for the four years. She ended up choosing Virginia Tech and couldn’t be happier with their program. She’s been able to take business classes since day 1, has access to business clubs and other resources that wouldn’t have been available to her as a freshman at other schools. There’s much more to an overall college experience and post-grad success, than some magazine rankings.

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102

I think some of it is their lack of highly ranked graduate programs. Many of the other public flagships mentioned have world class graduate programs in many (but not all) subjects.

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103

My D attends Michigan, so I’ll speak on behalf of it as best I can. I don’t know much about the other schools. But I don’t think there’s “hate” for Florida or FSU.

What makes Michigan a great school, and I’m sure Berkeley is similar (I live in the Bay Area), is that you can throw a dart and find a program in the Top 10.

LSA advertises that they have 45 programs in the Top 10 and that doesn’t include their other top programs like the CoE, Ross Business, Nursing, Kinesiology, etc., which are separate schools from LSA.

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104

I think this is a big part of it. A little context…in ancient times, I graduated from Texas. My youngest son turned down 2 private universities in the 15 - 25 range for essentially a free ride to the Honors Program at UF (we live in Florida) with the understanding that, if he did this, I would pay for his grad school. Even though we have lived in Florida for a long time, I always assumed he would go out of state, and saved for that. I never took UF seriously as an option for him, so when he expressed interest in the school, I did a deep dive.

His individual major was ranked in the top 20 in the US, and better than the 2 OOS private schools, so I liked that. I was still surprised that Florida didn’t have that many programs that were very highly ranked. I used Texas as a baseline and started looking at common majors. I couldn’t find one where UF was ranked higher than Texas, but today, UF is 28 and Texas is 38 as an institution in US News. I would love a cogent explanation of how this can happen.

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105

That’s a “What makes up the rankings?” discussion and you want something cogent. So, that’s not me. :rofl:

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I think it is hard for people to admit that their school is on the way down while others are so clearly on the rise especially when people associate their self worth so much with where they went to school.

People get very defensive and start throwing political things into the mix and gaming the system and all sorts of crazy theories to justify how their school is still as valuable as it used to be. Just my theory as someone who went to a big 10 schools in the Midwest that is definitely on a downward trend.

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107

According to UF, this is not true (that in-state is perferenced):

From 2019: Nope. We have absolutely no preference for in-state vs. out-of-state students. The percentage of out-of-state students at UF is 16%, which aligns with the rate of out-of-state applications received.

UGA is the same btw - someone noted below that the preference is in-state.

My belief is they have a high in-state rate vs. others for two reason - #1 the merit isn’t there vs. an Alabama or South Carolina. While UF is must lower cost than other schools, such as Wisconsin, merit is less.

Taking a look at the latest CDS - UF gave $11 million in non-need based aid. Look at known big givers - Alabama $158 million and Arizona $107 million. Wisconsin, for reference was $16 million and UT is $2.2 million hence everyone says it’s impossible to get money.

Most importantly, both Florida (Bright Futures, pre-paid) and Georgia (Hope) have programs where kids are going for free - so why leave the state? In fact, this might help the three quick risers in the rankings - UF, FSU, and USF - that the best and brightest aren’t leaving but yes, it then increases the in-state attendance rate vs. other schools that give big aid - i.e. Bama and Arizona.

Most importantly - @davidkay referenced UF being online for business and his concern about that. We’ve heard about Wisconsin better with tech companies or NY, etc. but this latest off spring from the original thread was simply about B Schools. And now we’re looking at which school is better vs. B school. I joked FSU is better than Wisconsin (as a whole) because it’s acceptance rate is half (32% vs. 60%) but the truth is they’re likely peer schools, although from a different region and athletic conferece.

Truth is - all these state flagships have many students who are Ivy Caliber - and some are easy to get into (Alabama) yet have more students who qualify for NMF - because wouldn’t you go over a higher ranked school if you got free tuition and 4 - year room vs. a $500 scholarship somewhere else?

Thousands of kids attend all these schools - it may be for money, to be close to mom, a specific major the school excels in, weather, location, their bff goes there or any # of other reasons.

We all have past “perceptions” and that drives the debate as to whether one school is better than another but the world has changed, and the current rankings - pick your choice as there are many although none are as studied as much as US News - are using current data to justify their assigned rank. It’s self chosen data but it’s data.

I went to - at the time - the #1 journalism school in the country - Syracuse. I know many SU alums made it - but many/most are like me and didn’t. Yet the rep is sterling in that field. My friend dropped out after two years because her parents couldn’t afford it. She went to U of Montana her last two years. I visited - her education was so superior - they were using equipment each and every day that I got to do just once per semester. And all 20 of her classmates got jobs out of graduation - and she’s still a news director at a local affiliate.

Each kid and experience is different - but it’s ok to admit there’s other great schools besides your favorite. To say one is better than another…whether it’s rank based on someone’s self determined data or it’s opinion driven - is almost demeaning to the many thousands who attend these schools. Maybe someone goes to WVU instead of UVA because it’s less than half the cost, etc. Should that kid be made to feel they are inferior?

Yes, it’s fun to debate - but we are also making kids feel as if they are superior or lesser. Just read the threads on here to see that.

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108

From their own CDS, the % of OOS first-year students and in the total undergraduate population

2018–2019: 12.1, 7.1

2019–2020: 13.3, 8.0

2020–2021: 12.4, 8.4

On top of the discrepancy in the numbers, the CDS states that geographic residence is considered in admissions.

And simply accepting the same ratio of OOS as apply doesn’t at all rule out favoritism toward in-state students, of course.

109

I assume that 16% number from 2019 includes all UF schools (undergrad, grad, fully online, etc.). Use this data (which shows total OOS enrollment of 18.8% in Fall 2020 for all schools in UF), which is more complete than the CDS, and you can cut it in many ways: https://ir.aa.ufl.edu/uffacts/enrollment-1/

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There’s lots of state schools that I know don’t consider “interest” yet it shows considered in CDS. You can’t believe everything you see in the CDS.

I listed the reasons - scholarships for in state (bright futures) and overall merit spend (which drives OOS admissions) as to why it’s in-state dominated.

As parents, we could only wish we had the opportunities that are offered to Florida HS students (and GA too).

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If you’re a FL or GA resident it’s almost impossible NOT to go to an in-state school. With Bright, Benacquisto, Hope and Zell the cost to stay is just about impossible to beat. Probably could say the same with Texas. Living in PA where our state schools are pricey, we kicked around the idea of moving just for these type of benefits. Ironically both kids ended-up in GA and FL.

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112

They chose the wrong state (although UF is cheap full pay relative to other states) -

the fact that Bama spent $158 million on merit and UF $11 million - when you’re smart and not from GA/FL and are looking for cheap…that’s all you need to know. Arizona is another high merit school - over $100 mil. Texas only $2 mil - even more stingy.

That was eye popping when I looked up those #s.

113

Sounds like a politician saying “fake news.” :man_facepalming:

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114

UF Alum here and S21 goes to FSU
Lots of back and forth is UF as good as the others and what about FSU

Lets look at UF
It has been climbing up the rankings and some are questioning it. Be that as it may it is the #5 Ranked Public School and 28th overall in US News and #25 in Forbes.
Every Year Admission to UF is getting harder. Last year’s 25th to 75th percentiles, 4.4- 4.6 GPA , 1330-1470 SAT, 30-34 ACT.
Florida last year was only state that required Test Scores,
I would consider Michigan, Wisconsin and Texas as academically Peer schools, for the vast majority of students.

FSU
Has been climbing up the rankings as well. #19 Public 55th Overall in US News.
They have a new President, he came to FSU from Harvard, the three finalists were Provosts at Harvard, UNC, and Tulane.
Last year student profile 4.2-4.6 GPA, 1250-1400 SAT 28-32 ACT
Last years test scores dipped expect them to be higher this year.
I would consider FSU a peer of Maryland, Pitt, Ohio State, Texas A&M or you are in NJ Rutgers.
With a 1500 SAT and all As and A minus she is a good candidate for an instate tuition waiver

You mention Arizona as a safety. USF, University of South Florida would be a better comparison or peer university.

She will not go wrong at a Florida school or any that you mentioned.
Find the school that is the best fit for her. Somewhere where she will be challenged Academically and where she is comfortable living for the next 4 years.

OOS in Florida
The reason OOS enrollment is around 10% is that is the Law. It’s not per school but for the University system as a whole
Florida focuses on keeping their students In State with very good merit through the Bright Futures and some of the lowest tuition in the country.

Compared to Alabama or Arizona mentioned in thread that aggressively chase OOS students with generous merit.

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I believe the #s. I’m not sure how closely the Box checks for criteria is watched closely by the school or looked at every year.

I’m in a job where we updat # and don’t even look at the non-#s etc.

The #s tell the story not to mention both UF and UGA state that where you are from or what school you go to (ie student caps) have no bearing on decisions.

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Do you think the $11 million includes Bright Futures? I don’t think it does (but I could be wrong). That is essentially a merit scholarship and can cover full tuition.

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No bcuz it’s not the school providing it.

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118

I’m not a big fan of anyone supporting their argument with “Don’t believe what you’re reading,” when it’s the one of the few official documents, if not the only one, that most universities produce for admissions.

Is every CDS for every college errorless? Probably not, but I’m not going to assume it’s wrong, until it’s proven wrong.

And I’m in a job where we review and verify every footnote, addendum and all the appendices. And I’m very careful about the boxes that I check.

Is that box checked for the other 20 years? I’m not looking, but that may give a clue.

119

Michigan lists its peers as:

Columbia University
Cornell University
Harvard University
Johns Hopkins University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
New York University
Northwestern University
Ohio State University
Stanford University
University of California-Berkeley
University of California-Los Angeles
University of California-San Francisco (added 2020)
University of Chicago
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
University of Maryland-College Park
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
University of Pennsylvania
University of Southern California
University of Texas at Austin
University of Virginia-Main Campus
University of Washington-Seattle Campus
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Yale University

https://obp.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/pubdata/almanac/Almanac_Appendix_Mar2021.pdf

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120

Ok. We’ll which do you believe. Their FAQs where they say it’s purely without bias to residency or school or the CDS which states otherwise ?

And do you believe all these public schools track interest that say in the CDS when they say the don’t and tell you they don’t. Many of them admit based on a table.

I choose to live in the real world.

It’s human nature to focus on what can be analyzed…#s vs qualitative items.

At my job and I work for a fortune global 100 they give me wrong #s to put in my evaluation. I change and source them and they say who cares. We’ve already written your review. They gave me 3 rounds when I kept pointing out the errors and it’s still wrong.

Stuff should be accurate 100% but unfortunately it typically isn’t.

And in this case since the CDS contradicts the schools themselves, so one clearly isn’t …

I’m not here to debate about info integrity. I 100% agree with you.

However, unfortunately the real world doesn’t seem to care as much.

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